--- Log opened Fri Oct 28 00:00:00 2022
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05:02 < muurkha> my notes on gradient 3-D printing from 02016: https://dercuano.github.io/notes/gradient-refractive-index.html
05:04 < muurkha> it says "Optical systems built in this way, using gradients rather than surfaces, can entirely avoid the problems of stray light from unwanted reflections from the surfaces of lenses"
05:04 < muurkha> this is not correct
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10:10 < kanzure> http://www.muskfoundation.org/
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11:49 < kanzure> https://github.com/intel/intel-extension-for-tensorflow
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14:08 < kanzure> "longevity escape velocity foundation" https://levf.org/
14:08 < L29Ah> omg so many foundations
14:10 < kanzure> this is where aubrey has gone
14:11 < L29Ah> serial foundation founder
14:17 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_de_Grey#Sexual_harassment_allegations tfw shitty flirt would kick you out of your enterprise
14:55 < fenn> "an amorphous coordination polymer, Ni tetrathiafulvalene tetrathiolate, which displays markedly high electronic conductivity (up to 1,200 S cm−1) and intrinsic glassy-metallic behaviour. Theory shows that these properties are enabled by molecular overlap that is robust to structural perturbations. This unusual set of features results in high conductivity that is stable to humid air for
14:55 < fenn> weeks, pH 0–14 and temperatures up to 140 °C."
14:55 < fenn> .t https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05261-4
14:55 < saxo> Intrinsic glassy-metallic transport in an amorphous coordination polymer | Nature
15:03 < fenn> http://www.muskfoundation.org/ <- this is actually really funny
15:03 < fenn> minimum effort philanthropy
15:04 < L29Ah> no contact address
15:06 < fenn> "safe AI" was added in january 2019
15:07 < fenn> otherwise unchanged since 2006
15:14 < fenn> for bubble free glass, melt in a vacuum
15:21 < fenn> you'd still have the problem of some glass being more dense, so it would sink to the bottom
15:24 < fenn> so would it be discriminatory to have an organization composed entirely of sexual predators, serial foundation founders and other deplorables
15:25 < fenn> i.e. a no girls allowed club, because the people working there can't be trusted to behave
15:25 < fenn> i mean what is the PC answer to this? gas chambers and ovens?
15:29 < fenn> some of the most talented people in history were sexual deviants, harassers, and so on
15:37  * luna_ calls Godwin's law
15:37 < luna_> Debate duly shat on.
15:42 < fenn> good for you
15:42 < fenn> is there an answer?
15:43 < fenn> what would modern society do with incorrigibles like von neumann and feynman?
15:45 < fenn> there ought to be a list: talented scientists and mathematicians retroactively guilty of future norms violations
15:49 < fenn> then we could all invent justifications for why we didn't need them anyway
15:49 < fenn> "somebody else would have-" actually no, there wasn't anyone else at the time
15:52 < fenn> "there comes a time in everyone's intellectual journey when the idea of heroes dies. What becomes more impressive later, is how these broken, twisted, deeply flawed individuals, despite their dread humanity, have shaped through their work and dedication a field that is and always will be greater than any single human"
15:54 < muurkha> what were von Neuman's incorrigible tendencies?
15:55 < muurkha> *n
15:57 < fenn> peeking under secretaries' skirts, catcalling, etc
16:07 < docl> darn, I thought he was just a serial car crasher
16:14 < muurkha> and Russia-nuking-advocator
16:15 < fenn> before they got the bomb, fwiw
16:16 < fenn> i only mention because lots of people don't seem to understand this
16:17 < muurkha> from a strategic perspective nuking them before they got the bomb makes more sense than nuking them after, but from a humanitarian perspective it's equally questionable
16:21 < fenn> it gets murky when the alternative is destruction of the entire world
16:23 < fenn> nobody *knew* the world wouldn't get blown up after a nuclear arms race, and in fact we're still vulnerable and uncertain
16:24 < kanzure> meanwhile, twitter proposes rounding up brilliant children https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1586134675357335553
16:24 < muurkha> .t
16:24 < saxo> @goth600 ok if not from me then what if the brilliant children you round up tell you that AI isn't what they should be working on? (@kanzure, in reply to tw:1586128121182314496)
16:24 < muurkha> .t
16:24 < saxo> @goth600 ok if not from me then what if the brilliant children you round up tell you that AI isn't what they should be working on? (@kanzure, in reply to tw:1586128121182314496)
16:24 < muurkha> .tw
16:24 < saxo> @goth600 ok if not from me then what if the brilliant children you round up tell you that AI isn't what they should be working on? (@kanzure, in reply to tw:1586128121182314496)
16:24 < muurkha> .tw 1586128121182314496
16:24 < saxo> @kanzure Fine, CCRU Globals to find children to work on AI capabilities (@goth600, in reply to tw:1586127938583687169)
16:25 < muurkha> .tw tw:1586127938583687169
16:25 < saxo> @goth600 waste of talent if you ask me. (@kanzure, in reply to tw:1585835498181824512)
16:25 < superkuh> I was re-reading Rhodes "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" recently and it's amazing how seriously optimistic many of the major players seemed re: world government or at least the end of peer power wars.
16:26 < fenn> you don't get into a high profile government agency directorship position without being at least interested in the idea of government as a force for good
16:26 < muurkha> fenn: generally when I disagree with von Neumann I have to admit he might be right and I wrong
16:26 < fenn> https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/soco/projects/1998-99/game-theory/neumann.html
16:27 < kanzure> .tw 1585835498181824512
16:27 < saxo> Enders Game but it’s EA Globals to find children to work on AI Safety (@goth600)
16:27 < muurkha> superkuh: world government is clearly preferable to nuclear holocaust
16:27 < kanzure> is it? i mean at least the survivors wouldn't have to live under tyrannical regimes?
16:28 < muurkha> kanzure: why wouldn't they?  and you're begging the question of whether there would be survivors
16:29 < muurkha> I mean people in Mogadishu are not all that free
16:29 < kanzure> do you have any conception of how hard it is to kill all humans?
16:30 < fenn> my takeaway from the covid clusterfuck is that there actually aren't any adults in charge
16:30 < muurkha> I haven't tried it yet, fi that's what you mean, kanzure 
16:30 < muurkha> I certainly don't want world government, but that's because I think there are alternatives other than a nuclear holocaust
16:30 < superkuh> A large nuclear exchanged that destroyed civilization would decrease positive liberty (having the resources to do things) but increase negative liberty (not being prevented from doing things).
16:31 < muurkha> superkuh: not for the people it killed
16:31 < superkuh> Yes.
16:31 < muurkha> I mean killing people is a pretty effective way to prevent them from doing things
16:32 < fenn> too effective if you ask me. contracts aren't even valid anymore after you're dead
16:32 < muurkha> it's often the last resort of governments when intimidation, bargaining, and commands fail
16:33 < muurkha> also, it's certainly plausible that the survivors (if any) would survive in tiny tyrannies, such as nuclear submarines and child-raping families in the Pitcairn Islands
16:36 < kanzure> GPT-3 already devised the solution to that particular problem: in order to prevent the possibility of tyranny, just eliminate everything
16:36 < kanzure> maybe not the source https://spencergreenberg.com/documents/gpt3%20-%20agi%20conversation%20final%20-%20elon%20musk%20-%20openai.pdf
16:36 < muurkha> it depends greatly on the extent to which despotism increased a tribe's chances of survival.  we know despotism is strongly favored in wartime — despots such as generals and colonels can muster massive attacks and defenses that freer polities cannot, to the point that historically it's been common for democracies to elect a despot for the duration of the war
16:37 < muurkha> would despotism also be favored by attempting to survive a nuclear winter?
16:37 < muurkha> there are easily imaginable situations where it would, but we don't know how likely they are
16:38 < kanzure> there ought to be a solution to freedom other than "you should all intentionally undertake illegal acts in a world government tyranny scenario" and "hope there's a few survivors and they chill out for a few years before installing governance again"
16:39 < kanzure> anyway, just to be clear, the reason to think about the level of difficulty of kill all humans is because if that difficulty turns out to be rather low then that might indicate we should be taking ameliorative actions to increase the total difficulty (like by multiplanetary expansion)
16:42 < kanzure> fenn: a zoo of incorrigible geniuses would probably be able to manage the eccentricities to reasonably okay outcomes.
16:43 < muurkha> or secret volcano bases
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16:48 < pasky> muurkha: a large scale nuclear exchange right now would likely destroy something like low tens of percents of world population? of course things would get very disorganized too, and many of the "hubs of civilization" would be completely knocked out .. so it'd be horrific and life would be rather terrible i guess at least for 5-10y if you are used to civilization, but in the end maybe all timelines 
16:48 < pasky> stalled by 15-30 years at most?
16:49 < muurkha> maybe, I think most of the rest of the world population is dependent on those hubs
16:49 < pasky> yes that's why i said life would be rather terrible for a period
16:50 < muurkha> but I don't really know what would happen in mines and nuclear submarines and rural Patagonia
16:50 < pasky> (i'm not sure how it was at the height of the cold war but now the stockpiles are relatively low and many parts have limited shelf life so there is also question of reliability, in terms of amount of destruction caused)
16:50 < pasky> well add to that regular $COUNTRY countryside, smaller towns/cities, even most larger towns/cities and suburbs etc.
16:50 < muurkha> also nuclear winter
16:50 < pasky> i believe that's mostly a fabricated myth?
16:51 < TMA> not exactly
16:51 < TMA> if the amount of airborne particles is high enough, the temperature drops
16:51 < pasky> hmm maybe i'm wrong on that, skimming wp right now :)
16:52 < pasky> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter#Recent_modeling
16:56 < fenn> not looking good
16:57 < fenn> i didn't know about the ozone depletion aspect
16:58 < pasky> well honestly i'm still filing this as "controversial concept" after skimming that wp section
16:58 < pasky> regardless the recommendation that no nation should possess more than 100 warheads i can get behind
16:59 < pasky> (i wonder how would 20th century look like without nuclear weapons - i'd have expected some major conventional wars in europe)
16:59 < pasky> (...i mean, post ww2)
17:00 < pasky> so i'd wager that existence of nuclear weapons in limited amounts is a significant net positive
17:00 < TMA> mame https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer ... bylo by to srovnatelne mracno?
17:01 < TMA> sorry: we have recorded event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer ... would the nuclear-attack related soot cloud be comparable?
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17:02 < fenn> it would be much worse, an order of magnitude or more
17:02 < fenn> especially because the cooling could last many years
17:05 < pasky> but would it though
17:05 < pasky> intuitively such a vulcanic eruption is much larger mass ejection event than hundreds of firestorms
17:06 < fenn> "The lack of oats to feed horses may have inspired the German inventor Karl Drais to research new ways of horseless transportation, which led to the invention of the draisine or velocipede. This was the ancestor of the modern bicycle"
17:07 < fenn> pasky: i'm just reading the wikipedia page, which cites http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/RobockNW2006JD008235.pdf
17:08 < TMA> on the other hand, the material (volcanic ejecta) is of somewhat different composition, it might fall down sooner
17:09 < pasky> TMA: probably more important effect than falling down is raining down
17:10 < fenn> there's no rain in the stratosphere
17:10 < pasky> fenn: yes it also cites bunch of other papers, sometimes with entirely contradictory conclusions
17:13 < pasky> we need a meta analysis :)
17:13 < TMA> I expect my personal quality of life to drop in the event of a nuclear attack; that is enough for me to file it under undesirable >:-)
17:13 < fenn> this sentence does not make sense to me: "black carbon molecules increase to ten times their normal size when they reach the stratosphere"
17:15 < pasky> fenn: particle coagulation
17:15 < pasky> hygroscopic growth?
17:15 < pasky> http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/CoupeNWjgr.pdf
17:18 < fenn> pasky i'm not seeing any contradictory conclusions
17:25 < pasky> fenn: The 2018 section. (Ok, "nuclear weapons reserach lab predicts no nuclear winter" isn't without conflict of interest.) Criticism section has plenty, first on the assumption firestorms break out at all in modern cities, actual optical properties of the black soot, RAMS original author revisiting his conclusions and saying 'amongst other systematically examined assumptions, far more rain out/wet 
17:25 < pasky> deposition of soot will occur than is ...
17:25 < pasky> ... assumed in modern papers on the subject' and much more. Publication bias might also play a strong role: 'physicist Freeman Dyson of Princeton for example stated "It's an absolutely atrocious piece of science, but I quite despair of setting the public record straight."'
17:25 < pasky> fenn: re your point about no rain in the stratosphere, i believe it's about it raining down while rising to the stratosphere; that happenned in Hiroshima a lot btw
17:34 < muurkha> pasky: agreed that it's controversial
17:35 < muurkha> with respect to the major conventional wars in Europe (other than the one in Yugoslavia), maybe there's an anthropic-principle thing going on there
17:35 < muurkha> in the 99.9% of the timelines where there was a nuclear holocaust during the Cold War, 99.9% of us would have died and not been able to discuss it on IRC
17:39 < L29Ah> so, urine-fed duckweed farm
17:39 < docl> UVC enrichment with mirrors -> break down the carbon black to monoatomic C -> CO2
17:40 < fenn> not going to happen in a couple years
17:40 < fenn> by then the damage will have been done
17:40 < L29Ah> i wonder if i can meaningfully determine the amount of vitamins in my food using paper/multi-use plate TLC
17:41 < L29Ah> when does reversed phase chromatography become a requirement?
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20:50 < L29Ah> 00:25:36]<fenn> i mean what is the PC answer to this? gas chambers and ovens?
20:50 < L29Ah> USSR used to have a quite advanced system of labor camps, with things like military aircraft being developed by inmates
20:50 < L29Ah> apparently US is fine with forced labor in prisons, so it just needs a little expansion of the offered occupations
20:52 < muurkha> that is, first you imprison Oppenheimer for being a kulak or a harasser or problematic or supporting antifa or whatever, and then you force him at gunpoint to organize a metastable hafnium weapons research program?  I have an intuition that might not work as well as chain gangs
20:54 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka
20:54 < muurkha> .t
20:54 < saxo> "A Special Design Bureau (Russian: особое конструкторское бюро, osoboje konstruktorskoe bûro; ОКБ), commonly informally known as a sharashka (Russian: шара́шка, [ʂɐˈraʂkə]; sometimes sharaga, sharazhka) was any of several secret [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka
20:56 < L29Ah> the russian article has the list of labs
20:56 < muurkha> neat
20:57 < L29Ah> the list includes chemical and biological weapons labs
20:59 < muurkha> how much more efficient is spirulina or chlorella at converting sunlight into food than, say, corn and soy?
20:59 < muurkha> are horticultural LEDs good for spirulina and chlorella?
21:00 < L29Ah> afaiu most of efficiency comes from the fact that microalgae don't need any structural components or fancy replication devices
21:00 < L29Ah> yes
21:01 < muurkha> also their generation times are shorter than corn, which might be good for resiliency
21:01 < muurkha> and the seed size is smaller
21:01 < L29Ah> also check duckweed, i think it's promising at small scale when you don't want to deal with filtering microalgae culture and dealing with its microparasitical competition
21:01 < muurkha> yeah, bioreactors are very touchy
21:02 < L29Ah> spirulina gets bonus points for quite exotic environment where it thrives tho
21:03 < muurkha> oh?
21:03 < L29Ah> pH 11
21:04 < muurkha> that sounds like it would help a lot with reducing microbial competition
21:04 < L29Ah> it does
21:04 < muurkha> can you get that high by just fermenting urine or do you need to burn lime or something?
21:05 < L29Ah> wood ash will suffice
21:05 < muurkha> what if wood without radioactive strontium and iodine on it has become scarce?
21:06 < L29Ah> then probably burning lime is the easiest option, given you don't already produce HCl+NaOH via electrolysis
21:07 < muurkha> I haven't tried it
21:38 < fenn> L29Ah: thanks for the realistic answer. unfortunately it's horribly depressing. also i see a lot of familiar names on the list of notable inmates... korolev, glushko, tupolev, theremin
21:39 < fenn> in the US currently the undesirables haven't been tried in a court of law, for the most part, only the court of public opinion
21:43 < muurkha> well, for whatever reason, deplorable musk has seized control of the court of public opinion, if twitter is the court of public opinion
21:44 < muurkha> I guess he wasn't appreciating the verdicts it was rendering
22:00 < fenn> apparently not the first to have this idea: https://bucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/c7eb097a-b82b-4bd5-918c-3c717f9eb27c_860x333.jpeg
22:02 < fenn> source of teh meme https://nitter.fdn.fr/RokoMijic/status/1425500082460299266
22:02 < muurkha> hasn't roko been cancelled?
22:02 < fenn> i didn't know vitaDAO even existed a year ago
22:02 < fenn> who hasn't been cancelled?
22:03 < fenn> all transhumanists are undesirables
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--- Log closed Sat Oct 29 00:00:01 2022