--- Log opened Wed Nov 09 00:00:11 2022
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14:52 < fenn> .tw https://twitter.com/Robotbeat/status/1578471674487312384
14:52 < saxo> @ESYudkowsky Bro, aren’t we all “tiny molecular squiggle” maximizers, tho? (@Robotbeat, in reply to tw:1578459400389345280)
15:00 < muurkha> .t
15:00 < saxo> @ESYudkowsky Bro, aren’t we all “tiny molecular squiggle” maximizers, tho? (@Robotbeat, in reply to tw:1578459400389345280)
15:00 < muurkha> .t tw:1578459400389345280
15:00 < saxo> In retrospect, I wish I'd talked about a superintelligence whose utility/cost max was at "tiny molecular squiggles" instead of tiny shapes *like paperclips*. Now people talk about runaway paperclip factories. I tried to speak of inner alignment failure; people heard only outer. (@ESYudkowsky)
15:02 < muurkha> inner alignment failure?  this is sounding chiropractic
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15:16 < fenn> his point was that you never even programmed the AI to make paperclips (or tiny molecular squiggles) in the first place
15:17 < fenn> not having seen the original post, i'm not sure what he was trying to communicate exactly
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15:46 < fenn> as i was interested in the provenance of the paperclip maximizer meme, and because lots of copies keeps stuff safe, i scraped sl4.org here for you convenience http://fennetic.net/irc/sl4.org.txz http://fennetic.net/irc/sl4.org_2022-11-09.warc.xz
15:54 < fenn> fwiw i couldn't find any instances of "paperclip" in SL4 prior to 2004
16:09 < fenn> i also couldn't find it in any copy of extropians mailing lists
16:23 < maaku> "paperclip maximizer" was just a silly example meant to demonstrate that (his vision of )AGI would autistically work to achieve goals, no matter how dumb
16:23 < maaku> he's complaining that people got focused the dumb goal example he gave
16:24 < maaku> made for a great clicker game though
16:24 < fenn> well supposedly it meant that the AI would settle on a different goal than it was programmed with, according to those tweets
16:25 < fenn> "nobody asked for tiny molecular squiggles on purpose"
16:25 < maaku> been a while since I read the original article, but that's not my memory of it..
16:25 < fenn> me either
16:26 < fenn> i don't think bostrom was the originator, based on my impressions from when i first heard of the meme
16:26 < fenn> but certainly bostrom popularized it, or the popularization happened after his essay
16:26 < maaku> I'm not gonna go down the LW rabbit hole, but what I remember is an ACME Paperclip Co. getting an AI and telling it to make more paperlicps, more cheaply, because that's what they needed
16:26 < fenn> right
16:27 < maaku> yeah that doesn't really square with this tweet
16:27 < maaku> maybe he remembers having something else in mind
16:28 < muurkha> people and corporations do work pretty hard to achieve dumb goals
16:28 < muurkha> getting laid, for example, or making profits
16:28 < fenn> those aren't so bad, given alternative possible goals
16:29 < muurkha> neither is making paperclips
16:29 < fenn> but MY DNA sequence is special and holy
16:29 < muurkha> the problem is when you start doing things like polluting the environment where people live in order to make a number go up in a bank computer
16:30 < muurkha> in the best possible world, profits are an indication of how much service you're providing to other people, minus the harm you do them
16:30 < muurkha> but obviously there are cases where that correspondence fails
16:31 < fenn> i'd rather not do this conversation again
16:31 < muurkha> ok
16:31 < maaku> well, since iron is the terminal stable element in both the carbon cycle fusion and radionuclide decay process, after which the best source of power is feeding small bits of matter into black holes..
16:31 < muurkha> i didn't remember we'd done it before
16:32 < maaku> I'd say that the production of paperclips is the eventual path of any industrial civilization on long enough timescales
16:32 < fenn> well maybe we haven't done it before, but it's been done to death elsewhere
16:32 < muurkha> really? in the sense of devoting all of its energy to the production of spandrels, maaku?
16:33 < maaku> fuse all light elements into iron, transmute all heavy elements into iron, in the process extracting all available nuclear energies
16:33 < maaku> then forge into standardized 1g pellets to feed into a black hole to harvest the hawking radiation
16:33 < fenn> if you pile the paperclips high enough, it will eventually collapse into a black hole, and you can legitimately claim to have filled an entire universe full of paperclips
16:33 < maaku> folding these bits of iron into paperclips is just an artistic flourish
16:34 < muurkha> aha, I see
16:34 < muurkha> hey, speaking of things collapsing into a black hole, what are our prospects of computing with degenerate matter?
16:35 < fenn> pretty good. have you read "starquake" or "dragon's egg" by robert forward?
16:36 < muurkha> yeah, the latter.  but it doesn't really provide a path toward humans building computers out of degenerate matter, and even the human spaceship approaching the neutron star depends on exotic forms of matter that haven't been shown to exist (monopoles)
16:37 < L29Ah> 01:29:36]<fenn> but MY DNA sequence is special and holy
16:37 < L29Ah> which one of yours?
16:37 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starquake_(novel) reminds me of https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Blink_of_an_Eye_(episode) but with more rigorous real-world physics
16:37 < fenn> L29Ah: both of them
16:38 < fenn> yeah yeah mosaicism microbiome yadda yadda
16:38 < maaku> muurkha: if there is an island of stability of strange matter, that might enable enough nuclear complexity to permit construction of femtomachinery
16:38 < L29Ah> only both? i'm pretty sure there are many more in your body
16:38 < L29Ah> even without mosaicism and microbiome!
16:38 < maaku> we don't have a good enough handle on the mechanical application of nuclear forces though
16:38 < fenn> L29Ah: are you talking about introns or retroviral sequences? otherwise i don't follow
16:39 < fenn> IgG shuffling...
16:39 < L29Ah> also dna damage and replication errors
16:39 < fenn> that's covered under mosiacism
16:41 < L29Ah> ah right, i misread mosaicism as chimerism
16:41 < fenn> .w chimerism
16:41 < saxo> chimerism — noun: 1. (genetics) The property of being a genetic chimera
16:41 < fenn> .w "genetic chimera"
16:41 < saxo> Couldn't get any definitions for "genetic chimera"
16:41 < fenn> .wik "genetic chimera"
16:41 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"genetic_chimera" gave 404 | Searched en for '"genetic chimera"' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
16:41 < fenn> oh ffs
16:42 < fenn> was saxo always this bad?
16:42 < muurkha> used to be worse
16:42 < muurkha> .wik genetic chimera
16:42 < saxo> "A genetic chimerism or chimera (/kaɪˈmɪərə, kə-/ ky-MEER-ə, kə-) is a single organism composed of cells with more than one distinct genotype." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_chimera
16:42 < muurkha> maaku: that sounds very speculative
16:43 < fenn> "In animals, this means an individual derived from two or more zygotes" seems to be the relevant distinction
16:44  * fenn goes off to do a thing...
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17:53 < maaku> muurkha: anything involving degenerate matter is highly speculative
17:56 < muurkha> is it?  I mean we know neutron stars exist
17:57 < muurkha> and we've built hydrogen bombs
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18:42 < nmz787> muurkha: the FIB is just sitting, waiting for me to re-insulate another part of the building, and build some level of "cleanroom" so it can be installed 
18:44 < nmz787> I just hate this whole surplus equipment gamble... like, an $11k FIB/SEM might be the best deal I'll see in the next 5 years, who knows
18:45 < kanzure> if there is a recession and larger market crash, there will be lots of lab and biotech goodies appearing at liquidation auctions soon
18:45 < nmz787> it's also the same brand and a close model to my FIB, so probably shares some common electric-topologies/software/computers
18:45 < nmz787> hmm
18:45 < nmz787> everyone seems happy since the CHIPS act
18:45 < kanzure> btw are you going to be caught in the intel cuts?
18:46 < nmz787> nah, already been made very clear
18:47 < nmz787> we're still hiring in the fab/design org at least
18:50  * nmz787 just ordered cell phone tripods, to make better attempts at youtube videos
18:51 < nmz787> I haven't unboxed the stromlinet AFM yet
18:51 < nmz787> though I did spend like 10 more hours on the G491 microcontroller and working on running micropython on it
18:51 < nmz787> I think I finally got over that hump... 
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19:54 < maaku> muurkha: so I should mention my physics understanding is only at an undergratuate level. I was a physics major though so I got a lot further than just introductory physics, but that kind of astrophysics is definately graduate level
19:55 < maaku> BUT, my understanding is that our handle on nuclear physics is limited to things like energy state calculations, and very rudimentary models of nuclear surface tension and such
19:58 < maaku> it's not a very mechanistic model. e.g. the atomic weights and some isotope instabilities like beryllium can be explained by assuming that the 2p+2n configuration of the helium atom is more stable than a nucleon soup
19:59 < maaku> this also explains why alpha particles radiate and not other configurations of nucleons, why isotopes with even vs odd atomic mass numbers have different behavior under neutron bombardment, etc.
20:01 < maaku> all relevant to the physics of nuclear fission, and well understood in the sense that we can make qualitative predictions about what reactions happen, and quantitiative predictions about energy release due to E=mc^2
20:02 < maaku> but it's not a mechanistic law. You can't run a simulation of a neutron zipping through a nucleus, or the exact deformations that give rise to radioactivity
20:05 < maaku> Lise Meitner had the intuition that if you assume a nucleus behaves like a drop of liquid (hand-wave!), and a neutron imparts energy into the droplet which causes it to wobble (hand-wave!), then
20:06 < maaku> for a large enough nucleus there are wobble geometries where the droplet gets elongated enough that the electric force would be stronger than the nuclear force, and "surface tension" (hand-wave!) would cause the drop to split in two
20:07 < maaku> just like you see with large drops of water coming out of a hose and splitting into a spray of smaller drops
20:07 < maaku> that is literally the extent of our quantitative understanding of nuclear mechanics, AFAIU. lots of hand-waving
20:08 < maaku> See https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/8452/is-there-an-equation-for-the-strong-nuclear-force
20:08 < maaku> .title
20:08 < saxo> particle physics - Is there an equation for the strong nuclear force? - Physics Stack Exchange
20:09 < maaku> To summarize the answers: there are equations we can use that experimentally are valid within certain energy ranges, but not universal equations like Newton's law of gravity
20:10 < maaku> It's more like a truncated taylor series that have been curve fit to the energe ranges we have data about, not a general universal physical law
20:11 < maaku> but if you're talking about femtotechnology built out of nucleons, I think that would require a mechanical understanding of the strong and weak forces that we currently lack
20:13 < maaku> it's a bit like if we had the ideal gas law but not statistical mechanics--we can explain how pressure, volume, and temperature relate through the ideal gas law, and even some corrective factors for high pressure or low temperature conditions
20:13 < maaku> but utterly lack a mechanical understanding of how simple newton's laws applied to gas particles with random thermal motions gives rise to those laws
20:32 < maaku> hrm. reading up on quantum chromodynamics has me doubting whether my understanding posted above is correct.
20:33 < maaku> I wish I had gotten far enough to have studied that
21:08 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement_sleep_behavior_disorder#Prognosis wow
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22:03  * nsh smiles
22:04 < nsh> when did we test newton's law of gravitation for systems with a higher energy than the quarkonium?
22:05 < nsh> even today, the james webb space telescope can only test what passes for a theory of gravitation up to a certain range 
22:05 < nsh> any law can be considered universally valid if you apply enough myopia
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23:02 < muurkha> nmz787: oh dear, I didn't realize it had to be installed in a cleanroom, but that makes sense
23:03 < muurkha> nmz787: what have you found out about the G491?  are its peripherals really as incredible as they sound in the datasheet?
23:04 < muurkha> maaku: so it's not that everything about degenerate matter is speculative but that we don't know very much about how it behaves, much like atoms before Mendeleev
--- Log closed Thu Nov 10 00:00:12 2022