--- Log opened Thu Nov 17 00:00:19 2022
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10:30 < maaku> Is it possible to create a silent drone? How would one go about doing so?
10:30 < kanzure> gliding could probably be made to be pretty quiet
10:30 < maaku> Outside of human hearing would be okay, truly silent would be impressive.
10:32 < maaku> maybe structural aerogel around a helium-filled interior could get you light enough in air to get really long glide times
10:39 < kanzure> you also only need to be quieter than ambient noise
10:40 < maaku> ambient noise in that frequency range to evade electronic detection, which might be very difficult to achieve
11:18 < L29Ah> maaku: blimps can be silent
11:19 < L29Ah> esp with huge propellers or fish-style propelling method
11:45 < muurkha> kanzure: with phased-array passive sonar you can detect a point noise source even if it's somewhat quieter than ambient noise and producing perfectly white noise (unlike, say, propellers)
11:47 < muurkha> I feel like electrohydrodynamic drive would be pretty good at producing only white noise
12:05 < muurkha> hey I have a new antifoom argument
12:55 < darsie> Magnetohydrodynamic drones are pretty quiet.
13:02 < muurkha> how do you do magnetohydrodynamic drones in air?  that sounds like it would require some pretty intense arcs
13:03 < muurkha> antifoom argument: stipulate that AI alignment is an extremely difficult problem (because if not the foom problem isn't important) and that AI takeoff *could* happen fast at a technical level (for the same reason)
13:04 < muurkha> also, that the relevant AIs are usefully understood as having goals their behavior is designed to achieve (because, again, if not, the foom problem isn't important)
13:09 < muurkha> the new argument (or at any rate one I haven't seen before) is that a weakly superhuman AI risks its goal stability by self-enhancing, because AI alignment is an extremely difficult problem for it too
13:11 < muurkha> darsie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive#Aircraft_propulsion is entirely about hypersonic aircraft, which are the opposite extreme from "pretty quiet"
13:38 < muurkha> I see Yudkowsky has considered this argument: https://intelligence.org/2016/12/28/ai-alignment-why-its-hard-and-where-to-start/#stable-goals-in-self-modification
13:38 < muurkha> but it doesn't seem to have convinced him that foom is not a problem, and I'm not sure why
13:42 < darsie> I thought of water drones.
13:43 < darsie> Birds are pretty silent.
13:44 < darsie> Indoor planes are silent.
13:44 < darsie> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVaDvS33Z5Q
13:44 < Muaddib> [sVaDvS33Z5Q] 2018 FAI F1D World Indoor Free Flight Championship at West Baden (1:29)
13:49 < darsie> https://youtu.be/JsJeVz_EreY?t=38
13:49 < Muaddib> [JsJeVz_EreY] Jim Richmond Open 2019 (feat. Joshua Finn's Hourglass III) (7:30)
14:13 < fenn> https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-americas-top-inventor-lowell-wood/
14:17 < fenn> maaku emit the inverse of the acoustic waveform that your drone propellers create, to cancel the sound from most directions. can't do every direction because the speakers can't be exactly coincident with the propeller tip, but you can create a synthetic aperture that looks pretty close to it
14:19 < fenn> also bigger propellers have less pressure loading and therefore create less noise per unit thrust
14:19 < fenn> a fixed wing is sort of the extreme end of that, with the bonus that it never has to encounter self-generated turbulent air
14:21 < fenn> MHD in air does not use arcs. cold plasma can be created by electrospraying salt water, to make sodium ions or whatever
14:21 < fenn> this tech is used on cube sats as "ion propulsion"
14:22 < fenn> in air, the momentum of the ions will instantly transfer to the air molecules, so you get much more thrust than in space
14:23 < fenn> you can keep pushing on the ions while they're in the thruster
14:24 < fenn> the MHD-in-air stuff i've seen ("lifters") is terribly unimpressive, because you need a lot of electrical power with very little weight
14:25 < fenn> also, mumble mumble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_actuator#Active_noise_control
14:32 < fenn> ok technically lifters are electrohydrodyanamic (EHD)
15:03 < maaku> L29Ah: I'm thinking of applications wehre being small and manuverable is more important
15:03 < maaku> e.g. battlefield applications
15:09 < kanzure> fenn: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/realdesignsfusion.php
15:09 < kanzure> (specifically 'hyde fusion rockets')
15:19 < fenn> 6 weeks to mars
15:19 < fenn> ahem. "6 weeks to mars" doesn't sound so great
15:20 < fenn> presumably it performs better without such an absurdly large payload fraction
15:21 < fenn> has NIF even reached breakeven?
15:23 < fenn> project orion had the right idea, a big spring to even out the thrust from big explosions. if you can let the nuclear processes do all the heavy lifting, your laser doesn't need to be so big
15:23 < fenn> and so what if it wastes energy
15:26 < fenn> note that a NIF "hohlraum" target doesn't need to have lasers coming in from all directions, only two
15:26 < fenn> a small laser-initiated fusion explosion can be used like a match to ignite more fusion fuel around it
15:27 < muurkha> fenn: I don't think you get much more thrust from MHD than in space because it requires a lot of power to maintain an arc in air, salt water or no salt water
15:27 < muurkha> EHD in air is definitely a feasible thing to do and what I was suggesting could be pretty quiet
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15:41 < kanzure> https://www.businessinsider.com/pronatalism-elon-musk-simone-malcolm-collins-underpopulation-breeding-tech-2022-11
15:41 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/1593363251139584007
15:41 < saxo> Though I cant read the current article, it appears the couple are enthusiastic pronatalists who are selecting embryos, naming them after Roman Emperors, hope to make a substantial contribution to the human gene pool, and definitely do think its Gattaca. // // (@antonioregalado, in reply to tw:1593363248438452228)
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15:58 < maaku> unpopular opinion: fast trajectories for interplanetary travel are never a good idea, at least in the inner solar system
15:58 < maaku> more energetically favorable slower trips get you a free return trajectory
16:01 < darsie> Less radiation exposure for humans.
16:02 < darsie> Less body wasting if they go without artificial gravity.
16:06 < fenn> sure but 6 weeks vs 6 months isn't reducing risk of radiation all that much, compared to the amount of effort needed to do so
16:06 < muurkha> it sounds like it's reducing the total radiation by at least a factor of four
16:07 < fenn> at what cost
16:07 < muurkha> maybe more if the humans learn to predict solar weather a few weeks out
16:07 < fenn> hmm
16:09 < fenn> i like solutions that don't succumb to the rocket equation, like the dipole drive or a rotating tether network
16:11 < fenn> beamed power from the inner system is a long way off
16:12 < fenn> in time
16:15 < darsie> 6 weeks?
16:15 < muurkha> the cost is just energy
16:15 < darsie> With nuclear hydrogen propulsion?
16:41 < fenn> say the spacecraft is 100% reusable (i.e. pure capital cost, no consumables cost) - what's better, to have many fast trips with a small quantity of payload, or a slow minimum energy trajectory?
16:48 < fenn> facebook's answer engine AI got yanked nearly immediately https://nitter.fdn.fr/mrgreene1977/status/1593278664161996801
16:48 < fenn> .tw
16:48 < saxo> @GaryMarcus That's my primary concern. (see images) I got it to spit out numerous different formats for "the benefits of eating crushed glass." It hallucinated all kinds of positive statements, including study details, livestock trials, and chemical explanations: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fhx2cEZVQAAT69K.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fhx2dI_UAAADtD6.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fhx2fGCVEAAbxxT.jpg (@mrgreene1977, in reply to t
17:03 < muurkha> hilarious
17:05 < muurkha> the part about dietary silion sources being important to bone health is in fact true, and glass certainly contains a lot of silicon, though not especially bioavailable
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18:52 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=da1fdbf2 Bryan Bishop: transcript: socratic seminar 34 >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/austin-bitcoin-developers/2022-11-17-socratic-seminar-34/
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 18 00:00:20 2022