--- Log opened Mon Dec 12 00:00:43 2022
00:48 < maaku> idk. you would know better than me
00:48 < maaku> but I expect Starship will be the last big bet spacex does
00:49 < maaku> then again, mars colonization is built into the dna of the company
00:49 < maaku> I'm not worried about spacex as a commercial vendor. just worried about the dream
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05:57 < kanzure> does spacex have workers assigned to mars colonization stuff other than big rockets? or is that strictly in the category of "figure it out later"?
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08:14 < lsneff> definitely not allowed to say, sorry
08:14 < lsneff> but maaku is right, mars colonization is in the dna of spacex
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08:40 < nsh> are there any relatively-affordable DNA sequencing offerings that don't involve signing away potentially significant rights to your genetic code?
08:40 < nsh> i'm vaguely interested in some of the information provided by the typical ancestry and medical indications offerings but i have a pretty strong distrust of their likely terms and conditions
08:41 < nsh> heh, ancestry claim 'informed consent' can be withdrawn at any time but i don't know if trust that any more than say deleting a social media account
08:43 < nsh> also seems some opportunists are claiming to be able to extend meaningful privacy by brokering to the typical services somehow, e.g. https://www.dnasquirrel.com/how-to-protect-your-genetic-privacy-anonymous-23andme-ancestry/
08:49 < nsh> anyone looked into Nebula Genomics? https://www.dnasquirrel.com/how-to-protect-your-genetic-privacy-anonymous-23andme-ancestry/   some mention of blockchain in 2019 article which may or may not instil confidence...
08:50 < nsh> .t https://www.wired.com/story/you-can-soon-get-your-dna-sequenced-anonymously/
08:50 < saxo> You Can Soon Get Your DNA Sequenced Anonymously | WIRED
08:50 < nsh> 'Using a blockchain, Nebula Genomics has crafted a way for customers to get their genomes sequenced without revealing personally identifying data.'
08:50 < nsh> oh, it's George Church
08:51 < nsh> looks like they've pivoted quite a bit since that piece
08:52 < nsh> no mention of blockchain or anonymity/anonymous on the nebula.org page above 
08:52 < nsh> ah but https://nebula.org/blog/anonymous-sequencing/
08:53 < nsh> undated blogpost derp
08:53 < nsh> .head https://nebula.org/blog/anonymous-sequencing/ Last-Modified
08:53 < saxo> No such header
08:55 < nsh> lol, subscription model to continue accessing your results
08:56 < nsh> $1000 for 300GB 'ultra-deep' circa Mar 2022 per https://www.innerbody.com/nebula-genomics-review
08:58 < nsh> vs $300 for 100GB 'deep'. which makes... not entirely a huge amount of sense, as it suggests they're providing only 3x the raw data but charging just over 3x the price. (vs 50x data and 3x price ratios between 'basic' and 'deep')
08:59 < nsh> could just be market segmentation derps
09:06 < nmz787> arcade games were my first driving tutor... also my mom taking me into shopping mall parking lots late at night when no cars were around, sitting me on her lap
09:53 < kanzure> nsh: core facilities at universities are probably prohibited from having nasty terms like that, something to look into
09:54 < kanzure> there was a recent service announcing a substantially competitive price; i didn't take note of it..
09:55 < nsh> ty
12:52 < muurkha> fenn: I might be unusually stupid but it definitely took me more than a couple of hours to learn to parallel park (without a camera, of course) and to feather the clutch when going from braked to moving forward when facing up a steep slope, without rolling too far down the slope backwards
12:52 < muurkha> less than 20 though
12:53 < muurkha> lsneff: plausibly without elmu's current games with the press, spacex would not be allowed to continue
13:07 < jrayhawk> howso
13:41 < muurkha> he sort of declared war on the press a few years ago, and since then they've been taking every opportunity to deprecate spacex, tesla, and him personally
13:42 < muurkha> my hypothesis about the twitter acquisition is that his objective is to gain control over a major press outlet and use it to polish their images
14:42 < jrayhawk> the press declared war on the entire tech sector in 2014, including twitter and elon
14:42 < muurkha> there was a specific elon thing that happened a few years after that
14:43 < TMA> why in 2014? what was the cause?
14:43 < muurkha> it would be nice if the entire tech sector benefited from elmu's counter-strategem, but it seems unlikely
14:43 < jrayhawk> declining subscriptions and the democratization of publishing, especially via facebook and twitter
14:46 < TMA> jrayhawk: thanks. I know that it happened. It just did not occur to me it was that long ago
14:50 < nmz787> muurkha: I learned to drive on an automatic, and drove (probably half with parent, half alone) with a license for probably a year before I bought a manual car and had to learn it as I drove it off the dealership's parking lot!
14:51 < jrayhawk> that was about the time the inability to gatekeep information on current events became shared knowledge and every news outlet switched to a Fox-News-style narrative value-add and the most marginal culture war shit started getting pushed like crazy, which every tech company ~mysteriously~ fell on the wrong side of every time
14:52 < kanzure> am i misremembering one of the *gate(s) turned out to be built around a journalists in-group cabal that was pusing all the stories out?
14:52 < kanzure> around that time
14:53 < jrayhawk> there were a couple cabals, most notably the journo-list and the new york times editorial predeterminations, but there are so many shared incentives that there's no need for real coordination
14:53 < jrayhawk> even if such things were policed, the outcomes would've been largely the same
15:15 < nmz787> 'phloem "fuel cell"' turns up a surprising few results that are what I am looking for
15:17 < nmz787> this is basically the closest reasonable hit https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/876287-tRNlA7/
15:18 < nmz787> I don't see anything about an tree-implantable fuel cell, huh
15:39 < fenn> "does spacex have workers assigned to mars colonization stuff other than big rockets?" -> Paul Wooster Principal Mars Development Engineer at SpaceX
15:43 < fenn> i haven't seen any evidence of work on hab development or the like. there are some airstream trailers in texas whose inhabitants are sort of LARPing being on mars. also there has been some big work on the in-situ resource utilization and conversion of water and CO2 to methane (in florida since a couple years ago iirc)
15:44 < fenn> last i heard the official position was "this is a bigger job than spacex wants to do alone, so come on down y'all. but we'll do it ourselves if we have to"
15:45 < fenn> also probably starlink is relevant for comms at mars
15:46 < fenn> in a higher orbit, you would need far fewer satellites
15:46 < muurkha> nmz787: plausibly you are a lot smarter than I am, or possibly learning to drive on an automatic is a better path
15:47 < muurkha> LARPing mars living sounds great
15:53 < fenn> i almost did that
15:53 < fenn> HiMARS in 2012
15:53 < fenn> in the application process i found out you had to have all your dental work done ahead of time, and there wasn't enough time to do that
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15:54 < fenn> assuming i would have been selected, anyway
15:55 < fenn> er, HI-SEAS
15:57 < fenn> ok now i'm really confused. wikipedia says the first HI-SEAS was in 2013, but i had the impression that it had been going for a long time
15:58 < kanzure> maybe applications started before they started
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16:04 < fenn> weird, kim binsted (the principal investigator for HI-SEAS at university of hawaii, i.e. the person who got all this to happen in the first place) is barely mentioned on hi-seas.org
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16:06 < fenn> i would say "not mentioned at all" but there is a passing mention in the middle of a long blog post
16:06 < nmz787> muurkha: are you learning NOW?
16:06 < nmz787> muurkha: I started learning the basics at like, age 4 or 5 probably
16:07 < nmz787> the terminal I connect with mostly these days doesn't scrollback for some stupid reason (xterm). Maybe probably konsole would work right
16:07 < nmz787> so maybe I missed backstory
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16:11 < maaku> kanzure: though no doubt there are a handful of people doing paper studies on what mars colonization would look like, to my knowledge there is no concerted engineering effort at this time
16:12 < maaku> approx everyone is either (1) supporting current F9 missions, or (2) getting starship to work
16:12 < maaku> (outside of starlink that is)
16:15 < maaku> paul wooster as of 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SZ3mVGBiiI
16:15 < Muaddib> [9SZ3mVGBiiI] Paul Wooster - SpaceX's Plans for Sending Humans to Mars - 22nd Annual Mars Society Convention (55:47)
16:16 < maaku> fenn: I think the mars society has done more effective LARP'ing than anything spacex could have done, and pioneer astronautix has proven out the atmospheric ISRU process
16:17 < fenn> yes
16:17 < maaku> muurkha: join a mars desert reearch station mission
16:17 < fenn> they're scaling up ISRU though, pioneer just did a brass board demo
16:19 < fenn> energy efficiency will also be critical
16:19 < maaku> pioneer had two phases iirc. they got a second SBIR contract to scale it up and make it more reliable
16:19 < maaku> well, scale it up to, say, mars sample return size. still orders of magntude less than a starship would need
16:19 < fenn> eh well scaling for nasa is like "now make one tonne of propellant"
16:19 < fenn> right
16:20 < maaku> yea
16:24 < maaku> nmz787: lsneff is learning now, not muurkha
16:24 < nmz787> ah
16:24 < maaku> we're just sharing stories
16:25 < maaku> I regret never having done MDRS :(
16:25 < maaku> I was going to do that after graduation. Ended up meeting my wife during college and having a family instead.
16:26 < nmz787> common enough theme
16:27 < nmz787> MDRS will eventually have to model that too, I guess
17:14 < muurkha> brass board?
17:14 < muurkha> what's their ISRU story?
17:15 < muurkha> maaku: hopefully I am learning too!
17:17 < maaku> muurkha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassboard
17:19 < maaku> so pioneer astronautics is/was Robert Zubrin's company. mostly a engineering demonstration company that survived by winning small contracts from NASA
17:20 < maaku> when Zubrin was pushing Mars Direct back in the 90's, one of the sticking points for NASA was the 'unproven' Sabatier reaction, despite it being turn of the century technology
17:21 < maaku> NASA threw him a bone and gave his company a small business award to demonstrate feasibility with a phase 1 study
17:21 < maaku> they later got a phase 2 study as well, IIRC. both successful
17:21 < maaku> you can see all their ISRU research here: https://www.pioneerastro.com/research/
17:23 < maaku> but Pioneer got bought by Voyager, and Zubrin took his exit. So I don't know how much Mars ISRU is still part of Pioneer's mission.
17:49 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2RIvJ1U7RE
17:49 < saxo> EctoLife: The World’s First Artificial Womb Facility - YouTube
17:49 < Muaddib> [O2RIvJ1U7RE] EctoLife: The World’s First Artificial Womb Facility (8:40)
17:50 < kanzure> imagine going to the effort to make this animation but letting poor voiceover/script happen
17:52 < kanzure> lots of weird comments on that video, talking about the psychic connection between a humanoid and her fetus
17:54 < kanzure> "I'm sure a "BIRTHING PERSON" will truly bond with a THING grown in a test tube or "GROWTH POD"."   as if people don't bond with non-birthed objects or other humanoids at all?
18:00 < kanzure> apparently there is a story in mahabharatha (400 BCE) where a woman is asked to put "flesh clumps" into 100 jars and from that 100 children are born
18:00 < fenn> .wik brassboard
18:00 < saxo> "A brassboard or brass board is an experimental or demonstration test model, intended for field testing outside the laboratory environment." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassboard
18:01 < fenn> The definition of a breadboard was further narrowed to purely electronic systems, while a brassboard was treated as "a similar arrangement for hydraulic, pneumatic or mechanically interconnected components"
18:01 < fenn> i typically think of breadboards as having a regular grid of holes, whereas a brassboard usually you make your own holes wherever you want
18:02 < kanzure> ah, posted originally here: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldbuilding/comments/zgursc/ectolife_the_worlds_first_artificial_womb_facility/
18:05 < fenn> those are some very, very large babies
18:07 < kanzure> lotta de-growth anti-human comments too. wacko.
18:08 < kanzure> existence of viable octuplets suggests that there's something scalable about wombs
18:08 < kanzure> (or the humanoid "psychic bond" is somehow scalable too)
18:08 < fenn> so, uh, what the hell am i watching? how can someone afford to produce a 10 minute video like this just for a reddit post?
18:10 < fenn> soylent green is made of baby poop!!!
18:11 < kanzure> i dunno, what's the cost of animation by the minute these days? for all i know these are all models from unity's asset catalog.
18:13 < fenn> i guess stock footage is cheaper if it's just a personal project
18:18 < kanzure> "sign here to permanently ban yourself from the use of these kinds of service: ___________"
18:18 < fenn> concept by: hashem al-ghaili
18:19 < fenn> i literally can't tell if this is satire
18:19 < fenn> what's with the nuclear reactor hall full of baby pods
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18:30 < fenn> iirc twins are themselves more likely to have twins
18:31 < fenn> "hyper ovulation, which is the natural tendency for multiple eggs to be released at the same time"
18:33 < fenn> can males pass down the hyper ovulation trait? this ought to be a really easy question to answer by looking at geneaological records, but for some reason nobody knows?
18:42 < fenn> someone should do one of these futurist baby factory videos, but as a documentary where they interview hyperintelligent children and their families as they tour the facility where they were created/born
18:42 < fenn> cause let's get real, nobody is attracted to babies in pods
18:42 < fenn> they would be in bags anyway, which is even more gross-out inducing
19:32 < muurkha> maaku: thanks!
19:33 < muurkha> is Zubrin still around?
19:34 < muurkha> by coincidence I was reading "Ethan of Athos" today, fenn
19:36 < maaku> muurkha: yes he's still preaching the gospel of space
19:37 < maaku> he upgraded his book, releasing The Case for Space which assumes as a baseline the availability of Starship
19:37 < muurkha> cool
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21:06 < fenn> "This is a very daring assignment as it means contact with women, who Athosians are taught are demonic and terrifying."
21:07 < fenn> "it would be hard to imagine a more unlikely hero for an SF adventure novel than a homosexual obstetrician," but they highly recommended it
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21:15 < fenn> "Bujold presents issues of technological obsolescence and the high rate of failure of R&D projects in personal terms, via bioengineering. Two jump pilots with obsolete navigational brain implants and a number of characters created by genetic manipulation are psychologically stranded by the termination of the programs for which they were designed."
21:15 < fenn> pass the butter please
21:16 < muurkha> what's unlikely about homosexual obstetricians?
21:18 < fenn> it doesn't fit the archetype/stereotype of an adventure novel
21:19 < fenn> "lifespans of 120 years or more" is not very impressive for a galaxy spanning civilization that practices genetic engineering and other hacks
21:19 < muurkha> the computers are also very 01980s
21:20 < fenn> well, we can't expect every author to know everything about everything
21:21 < fenn> also AI kinda ruins storytelling
21:21 < fenn> with super duper computers, the relatable human characters (if they even exist) are sidelined
21:22 < fenn> iain banks had this problem
22:03 < maaku> fenn: I thought the conjoined in Reynold' revelation space universe were interesting
22:17 < lsneff> love revelation space
22:39 < fenn> "human civilisation was destroyed by a rogue terraforming system of human origin that destroyed planets and converted them to millions of orbiting, vegetation-filled habitats." sounds like a happy ending?
--- Log closed Tue Dec 13 00:00:44 2022