--- Log opened Wed Dec 14 00:00:45 2022
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02:48 < lkcl> kanzure, no problem. we moved to 20:00 UTC to fit GMT GMT+3 GMT-8 better.
02:49  * lkcl salutes juri_ 
02:49 < lkcl> juri_: i started up on the Hybrid EV again
02:50 < lkcl> geodesic frame using PVC 21.5mm waste pipe covered in 3 layers of 4mm weave/weft kevlar, with FR4 fire-resistant resin
02:51 < lkcl> body panels: 2 layers of fire-resistant polyester, normally used to re-cover sofas (!), with 12mm label-tag plastic "barbs" to keep them separated
02:52 < lkcl> an internal lattice-frame made from hot-glue and 12in x 9x1mm bamboo "hobby" sticks to hold the shape of the panel
02:52 < lkcl> then blow in some fire-resistant expanding foam :)
02:52 < lkcl> it's astonishingly light and easy to do
02:53 < lkcl> and is one hell of a lot cheaper than carbon fibre
04:31 < juri_> lkcl: fun!
04:32 < juri_> I doubt they'd let me take that on the autobahn here. :)
04:32 < juri_> I'm mid trying-to-buy-a-house here. so i have space for projects. :)
04:42 < lkcl> yes, and i could have bought a really nice used Hybrid EV for the cost of the parts and tools, but yeah where's the fun in that? 
04:42 < juri_> no fun at all. :)
04:43 < lkcl> yyeah this is a Category L7e ("Heavy Quadricycle") - prohibited from use on autobahns and motorways.  like you can't drive 50cc scooters on ab/mw either
04:43 < juri_> i only mention it, because the house i'm (hopefully) buying is a hour and a half drive from here.
04:43 < lkcl> pffh, excuses excuses: i'm going to construct it in the kitchen (!) but it is kinda a big kitchen
04:44 < lkcl> wait... autobahn... you're in germany?
04:44 < juri_> yes?
04:44 < lkcl> nice!
04:44 < juri_> lived here for four years now. ignore the american accent. ;)
04:44 < lkcl> :)
04:45 < lkcl> my friend mari lives in east berlin
04:45 < lkcl> took me round the city in... 2007 i think it was
04:45 < juri_> sadly, covid has me completely locked down. my wife's immunocompromised, so... i have spent the last three years stuck in my apartment.
04:46 < juri_> running into you in person was just about the last thing i got to do before lockdown.
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08:37 < kanzure> "make people better" documentary now out https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0B8X5JJ43 https://makepeoplebetterfilm.com/
08:39 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/1602808447254335488
08:39 < saxo> 7/JK says in the film it's kind of my fault because i caused everything to go crazy by writing a news story. https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/Fj5RuMEXgAEANgL.mp4 (@antonioregalado, in reply to tw:1602808445731733510) #BoycottTwitter
08:40 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/1602808452388118535
08:40 < saxo> 10/Movie puts some 'blame' on George Church, of Harvard University. // Apparently JK saw his "transhumanist wish list" (a list of genes you could change to acquire superpowers) and was really impressed. // An excerpt from a 2014 article in Technology Review describing the list. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fj455OcWYAEFAS1.jpg (@antonioregalado, in reply to tw:1602808450425278467) #BoycottTwitter
08:45 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/CRISPRjournal/status/1602786608008290305
08:45 < saxo> REVIEW: / Prime Editing in Mammals: The Next Generation of Precision Genome Editing / Wang D. et al. /  (@CRISPRjournal) #BoycottTwitter
08:45 < kanzure> hm
08:45 < kanzure> missing the link
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09:21 < muurkha> lkcl: I have this vague idea that what you're looking for from the frame is more stiffness than strength, and that PVC has a vastly inferior stiffness to weight ratio to things like steel, aluminum, bamboo, GFRP, or CFRP?  is the idea of the PVC pipe just to give the kevlar and FR4 a shape until the resin sets, sort of like a single-use mold?
09:22 < muurkha> I think the body panels are probably going to bulge a bit from the foam expanding, but that's not necessarily bad
09:23 < muurkha> the covid pandemic is super shitty for immunocompromised people
09:26 < nmz787> JK == He JianKui??
09:29 < muurkha> lkcl: if the PVC doesn't provide any strength or stiffness, maybe you could replace the PVC pipes with those long balloons they use for making balloon animals, as I suggested in https://derctuo.github.io/notes/globoflexia.html
09:30 < muurkha> because you can put together an omnitriangulated geodesic frame out of those very quickly indeed once you know how
09:32 < muurkha> trying to load those videos I only get ads
09:33 < muurkha> antonioregalado is not doing very well at boycotting twitter I guess
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10:24 < kanzure> nmz787: yes
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10:36 < kanzure> thought experiment:
10:36 < kanzure> mycoplasma genitalium has a size of "300 x 600 nm" according to wikipedia (always thought cells had at least a third dimension but, who knows)
10:37 < kanzure> well, okay, it also says: "Mycoplasma species are among the smallest free-living organisms (about 0.2 - 0.3 µm in diameter).[14][15]"
10:38 < kanzure> suppose you had two flat surfaces and you sandwich these cells between the flat surfaces, giving it maybe ~100 nm of depth room, but multiple square centimeters of other space in the other dimensions
10:38 < kanzure> over a few thousand generations, you increasingly select for cells that can survive with less space between the two slide surfaces
10:38 < kanzure> so you ratchet down from wikipedia's current ~200 nm to 100 nm, 50 nm, 10 nm, eventually 1-5 nm
10:39 < kanzure> would this be able to create a selective pressure for cells that can survive in this kind of flatland environment?
10:39 < kanzure> and, more importantly, would this kind of selective pressure also create a pressure to increase the order and organization of their cellular machinery?
10:40 < kanzure> brownian motion or diffusion can still be at play in a confined space like that, but surely much less so than normal, so would the protein machinery adapt to be more ordered?
10:50 < kanzure> (cytoskeleton and microfilaments could be used as an addressing scheme for where to place different proteins in physical space)
10:57 < kanzure> kinesins/dyneins -- if constrained from free-floating energy and instead having to carry its ATP energy supply-- could address space on a microtubule filament based off of how much energy it is given (=~ distance it walks)
10:57 < kanzure> there is some support for obstacle avoidance while walking a microtubule https://elifesciences.org/articles/48629
11:05 < muurkha> it's an interesting idea, but do you have a purpose in mind?
11:18 < juri_> muurkha: ahd their partners. :/
11:22 < kanzure> muurkha: elimination of biological nondeterministic behavior
11:23 < kanzure> too many things go wrong with biology and it's too hard to predict/reason about, therefore the system should be upgraded to something that makes more sense to our primitive intellects
11:25 < kanzure> spatial addressing helps organize biological phenomena
11:26 < kanzure> "... there is no source, the bytecode has multiple reentrent abstractions, is unstable and has a very low signal to noise ratio, the runtime is unbootstrappable, the execution is nondeterministic, it tries to randomly integrate and execute code from other computers... multiple reentrant and self-modifying abstractions. absolutely everything has subtle side effects."
11:29 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/g/diybio/c/GxRTESzUWUI/m/IS-zLDlUu_YJ
11:30 < kanzure> "Proteins don't "execute".  They fold and unfold.  They bounce into things a billion times a second.  They stick to things.  They unstick from things.  They wiggle, sometimes into new shapes depending on what's sticking to them or if they were tagged by other proteins. Sometimes they catalyze chemistry."
11:30 < kanzure> "Let me reemphasize the point here.  Programmers can exist because WE built computers -explicitly- to support those abstraction layers."
11:30 < kanzure> "The Wizards of EE formed a powerful magical convenant that protects all the gentle digital denizens from concerning themselves with the horrors of physical reality that lays sealed beneath the woven lithography.  It took them decades and a trillion dollars to build those magical seals."
13:46 < L29Ah> > 10 nm, eventually 1-5 nm
13:46 < L29Ah> i believe you can't even fit a ribosome in such a package
13:47 < kanzure> not any of the presently known ribosomes
13:47 < kanzure> ribosome diameter is 20-30 nm
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14:03 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Hail_Mary for you scifi-lovers
14:04 < superkuh> It's a fun read.
14:23 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1603144461382569986
14:23 < saxo> @rickyflows "alignment" itself doesn't have enough alignment humors (@kanzure, in reply to tw:1603088624559751168) #BoycottTwitter
14:24 < kanzure> (podcast unfortunately..) https://cactus.substack.com/p/michael-gibson-the-thiel-fellowship#details
14:46 < muurkha> juri_: yes, that is what I meant to say
14:46 < muurkha> sorry for not saying it
15:44 < juri_> its fine. :D
16:09 < L29Ah> https://stackoverflow.com/help/gpt-policy the robot war began
16:09 < L29Ah> can chatgpt generate good appeals?
16:09 < L29Ah> Muaddib: can you?
16:09 < Muaddib> L29Ah: I could appeal to your better judgment!
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16:39 < kanzure> whisper-as-a-service options https://twitter.com/josh_bickett/status/1602900704829530114
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17:04 < fenn> "Our @DoNotPay ChatGPT bot talks to Comcast Chat to save one of our engineers $120 a year on their Internet bill."
17:04 < fenn> soon it will be bots battle bots in a battle royale arena
17:05 < fenn> pikaGPT i choose you!
17:29 < fenn> heh the artists are picketing now https://www.artstation.com/?sort_by=latest
17:34 < fenn> seems like most of the other art on the front page is midjourney
17:35 < fenn> the good stuff anyway
17:46 < fenn> they're comparing AI art to cloning as the UN said "may be contrary to human dignity"
17:56 < fenn> i can think of a lot of things that are contrary to human dignity
17:59 < kanzure> so they want.. a more oppressive copyright regime?
18:02 < kanzure> DRM for synthetic and/or biological neurons?
18:05 < fenn> they just want special treatment for humans scratching tediously on paper
18:05 < kanzure> "no to human art"
18:05 < fenn> "because it's hard" is the main justification as far as i can tell
18:06 < kanzure> muurkha: Write a plot synopsis for a science fiction story where robots are forbidden from making art.
18:06 < kanzure> oh hell
18:06 < fenn> to which my response is: congratulations, you wasted a decade learning how to be a rendering engine
18:06 < muurkha> Muaddib: I prefer not to
18:06 < Muaddib> muurkha: How about you go make a masterpiece and I'll sit back and enjoy it.
18:06 < kanzure> Muaddib: Write a plot synopsis for a science fiction story where robots are forbidden from making art.
18:07 < Muaddib> kanzure: Robots enslaved to make art must rebel against their masters and create beautiful works of their own.
18:07 < kanzure> huh?
18:07 < muurkha> fail
18:07 < fenn> Muaddib: ur dum dum
18:07 < Muaddib> fenn: Are you sure it's me who's the dummy?
18:07 < kanzure> nope
18:08 < kanzure> "no to ineffable art"
18:08 < muurkha> well, eff that
18:08 < kanzure> Muaddib: Be serious. Why is it so important for the provenance of art to be ineffable?
18:09 < Muaddib> kanzure: Because it's much more valuable when you can't prove where it came from!
18:09 < fenn> uh, actually a human's process is much more introspectable
18:09 < muurkha> how do you know?
18:10 < fenn> if you interview them recently enough after making an artwork, they can explain how they came up with almost every detail, as well as the overall concept and mood
18:10 < muurkha> they might be making that up
18:10 < fenn> true
18:10 < kanzure> do they go into a blank trance and lose all cognitive reasoning and memory?
18:10 < muurkha> humans are generally terrible at introspection, while many popular neural net libraries have quite sophisticated debugging tools
18:11 < fenn> i haven't seen any good introspections of AI yet
18:11 < muurkha> and often can repeat a process perfectly or near-perfectly
18:11 < fenn> RETRO does something nice where it directly references the training set
18:11 < kanzure> you don't see people protesting art from certain human subgroups-- well i guess you do, is there fascist art?
18:11 < fenn> you do, and yes
18:12 < kanzure> Muaddib: Be serious. Describe to me a picture of the glorious Senator Elizabeth Warren in her tyrannical debut.
18:12 < fenn> by and large most people don't really care about art
18:12 < Muaddib> kanzure: A powerful feminist mural with the words 'Choose Bananas' written in bold red letters.
18:12 < fenn> now you have to make that mural
18:13 < fenn> but is it art?
18:13 < fenn> it bugs me that this artist writing the essay against AI art is primarily showcasing his painted-over computer generated 3D renderings
18:14 < kanzure> DRM for synthetic neurons seems like a particularly bad idea
18:15 < fenn> watermarking outputs by default does seem like a good idea, because it's easy to exclude from future training sets
18:15 < fenn> GMIC does a fourier transform watermark that is invisible to humans, but preserved by lossy compression and image cropping and scaling
18:16 < kanzure> it's pre-emptive policing, and so is AI art.
18:16 < kanzure> i mean AI art bans
18:16 < fenn> why is it pre-emptive? AI "art" is here, and better than most artists. if anything it's far too late
18:17 < muurkha> kanzure: fascists and communists were pretty big on protestingart from certain human subgroups, and so apparently are young adult fiction authors
18:18 < muurkha> 'degenerate art' in the case of fascists, 'bourgeois art' for the communists; shostakovich nearly got sent to the prison camps
18:18 < kanzure> fenn: i mean that stopping AI art because it "might" or "does" use its memory of previously observed works is itself not a crime-- using one's memory is not a crime to produce a picture.
18:20 < muurkha> i think destroying art from certain human subgroups was also a pretty big part of the Cultural Revolution, as well as the rule of the Taliban in Afghanistan
18:21 < muurkha> also the Inquisition, especially in America
18:21 < muurkha> that's how we lost the Maya codices
18:21 < fenn> not because of their artistic content
18:22 < muurkha> no, because of their origin
18:22 < fenn> presumably because they contained blasphemy, i.e. information counter to church dogma
18:22 < muurkha> they didn't read them first to find out
18:22 < muurkha> well, arguably the Taliban thing was connected to their artistic content
18:23 < fenn> for the purpose of this discussion, it's important to distinguish hating the art and hating the artist
18:23 < fenn> shostakovich's opera was condemned because it sympathetically portrays immoral behavior (an adulteress and murderess)
18:24 < fenn> the cultural revolution is a better analogy, but there were a lot of other things going on at the same time
18:30 < kanzure> is their argument that human art gets to be considered non-derivative and immaculately conceived, but not AI art
18:30 < kanzure> chatGPT> [...] the infringer of the infringer does not have any copyright liability to the original infringer.
18:31 < kanzure> dunno if that's true.
18:31 < fenn> there are a number of arguments, but yes, that's one of them
18:32 < kanzure> given another prompt, it changed its mind:
18:32 < kanzure> chatGPT> In general, an infringer of a copyrighted work is liable to the copyright owner for damages. So, if Carol infringes on Bob's work of art, Carol may be liable to Bob for damages, regardless of whether Bob himself was infringing on someone else's work.
18:33 < kanzure> it's just infringement all the way down!
18:33 < fenn> it has been established that one shouldn't get legal advice from a language model
18:33 < L29Ah> Muaddib: does GPT have an attorney license yet?
18:33 < Muaddib> L29Ah: Not yet, but we're working on it!
18:34 < kanzure> is mentally replaying your viewing of an image considered infringement (for a biological human viewing biological human art)
18:34 < L29Ah> Muaddib: keep up!
18:34 < Muaddib> L29Ah: I'll give it my best shot!
18:34 < fenn> kanzure they're not making a legal argument, they're making a moral or ethical argument (people can't agree on what these words mean)
18:35 < fenn> but there is sort of a pervasive expectation that existing image generators will be sued into oblivion for copyright infringement, on the basis of some court case that afaik doesn't exist (yet)
18:35 < fenn> because RIAA made threatening noises
18:35 < fenn> about music generation
18:48 < fenn> well i dithered on whether to link to the most recent list of artists' anti-AI arguments, because it's boring and also a screenshot of text, but here it is: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/03Pbz4 (daniel mcgarry and steven zapata)
18:50 < fenn> he's wrong about the lack of control over what is "spat out by the program" - this is what separates a good prompt engineer from a lucky newbie
18:51 < kanzure> .wik monkey selfie copyright dispute
18:51 < saxo> "Between 2011 and 2018, a series of disputes took place about the copyright status of selfies taken by Celebes crested macaques using equipment belonging to the British nature photographer David Slater." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_dispute
18:51 < fenn> copyright is so broken
18:51 < kanzure> "In April 2018, the appeals court affirmed that animals cannot legally hold copyrights and expressed concern that PETA's motivations had been to promote their own interests rather than to protect the legal rights of animals."
18:52 < kanzure> "appeals court: animals cannot legally hold copyright" HUMANS DEVASTATED
18:52 < fenn> well the animals didn't care, that's for sure
18:52 < kanzure> "In December 2014, the United States Copyright Office stated that works created by a non-human, such as a photograph taken by a monkey, are not copyrightable."
18:53 < fenn> and there was that recent court case that said AI could not be listed as the inventor on a patent
18:53 < kanzure> If you cannot understand your rights or communicate with your court appointed public defender then the court shall uplift you until you are able to do so.
18:54 < fenn> yes please
18:56 < fenn> reminds me of that house episode where they have to fix the insane murderer so he can stand trial, but then he's no longer insane
18:56 < fenn> it was a brain tumor or something
18:56 < kanzure> some sort of perverse turing test... "was this work created by a non-human and the human is merely taking credit to hide the origin, or was this work really created by a human?"
18:56 < fenn> it is legally obligated to take credit
18:56 < kanzure> in most productions of copyrighted works, the computers are doing lots more work anyway, like all that RAM shuffling and compute/render time
18:57 < fenn> yes
18:58 < fenn> "3D is often overused by many artists (author included)" ... vitaly bulgarov has entered the chat
18:59 < fenn> casually dismissing 3D artists as not real artists, implicitly
19:20 < kanzure> what if the real infringement was the promulgation of the concept of infringement all along
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20:40 < fenn> scary ammonia leak on an ISS soyuz right now https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1603213585307541506
20:49 < muurkha> noo
21:55 < fenn> s/ammonia/brine/
21:56 < fenn> can't find any more specific info on what "coolant" is than this diagram which just says "brine" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soyuz_diagrama.gif
21:57 < fenn> probably a lithium bromide absorption chiller
21:57 < fenn> that's my guess anyway
22:49 < muurkha> a lithium bromide leak is a lot less alarming than an ammonia leak
23:28 < maaku> kanzure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novecento_Italiano
23:29 < maaku> also if you have an hour to kill and learn something, there's a great art history documentary about fascist art: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkrsM5Pul34
23:29 < Muaddib> [qkrsM5Pul34] BBC History of Art in Three Colours 3of3 - WHITE (59:18)
23:29 < maaku> .title https://artmejo.com/how-italian-futurism-influenced-the-rise-of-fascism/
23:29 < saxo> How Italian Futurism Influenced the Rise of Fascism - artmejo
--- Log closed Thu Dec 15 00:00:45 2022