--- Log opened Sun Jan 01 00:00:02 2023
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07:20 < kanzure> https://gnusha.org/logs/archives/hplusroadmap-logs.2023-01-01.tar.gz
07:20 < kanzure> https://gnusha.org/logs/archives/hplusroadmap-timestamps.2023-01-01.tar.gz
07:20 < kanzure> $ sha256sum hplusroadmap*2023*
07:20 < kanzure> 1c2c4f69243f6855a4cb5a334e694272f31478dfaaf2428ff7da6060d7132b52  hplusroadmap-logs.2023-01-01.tar.gz
07:20 < kanzure> b120acd17b23f8fffaf54900bf9c885bf1613d8d70a72f7fb733056d3e591cd2  hplusroadmap-timestamps.2023-01-01.tar.gz
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08:03 < nsh> Muaddib, can you translate this German language sentence into English for me? "Der erste Tag im Jahr 2023 läuft deutlich weniger genial als erhofft"
08:03 < Muaddib> nsh: The first day of the year 2023 runs much less splendidly than expected.
08:03 < nsh> Muaddib, can you translate this German language sentence into English for me? "Am besten gebe ich für den Rest des Jahres auf unf warte auf 2024"
08:03 < Muaddib> nsh: It's best if I give up on the rest of the year and wait for 2024.
08:04 < L29Ah> Muaddib: the correct answer is "yes, i can"
08:04 < Muaddib> L29Ah: I can, but I'd rather not.
08:05  * nsh smiles
08:05 < nsh> (source: https://mastodon.social/@islieb/109614640822140103 )
08:05 < nsh> Muaddib, can you explain the adage noblesse oblige in the context of the behaviour of language model dialogue bots?
08:05 < Muaddib> nsh: Noblesse oblige is a French term which means "nobility obligates". In terms of dialogue bots, it implies that bots should be polite and helpful, even if they don't have a wealth of knowledge at their disposal.
08:06 < nsh> *obliges
10:06 -!- Jay_Dugger [~jwd@47.189.1.51] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:06 < Jay_Dugger> Hello, everyone.
10:07 < Jay_Dugger> Change your passwords?
10:22 -!- gAy_Dragon is now known as A_Dragon
10:25 < nsh> fuck2hector is the one true password and must only be modified for complexity requirements but not usurped
10:25 < nsh> also use https://www.passwordstore.org/
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12:36 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34207926
12:36 < saxo> “Internet in space” will transform the satellite imagery industry | Hacker News
13:22 < lsneff> Interesting
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17:26 < kanzure> imagine there was a button to duplicate the island of manhattan for $0 and anyone could press it and get a copy of the island of manhattan
17:26 < kanzure> in this world, no amount of property rights would make sense to prevent people from copying this
17:26 < kanzure> the expectation should be that this button will be pressed quite abundantly and we should generally encourage that
17:27 < superkuh> What about when the oceans fill up with islands of manhattan?
17:27 < kanzure> lex luthor had something for that particular problem, i think
17:28 < superkuh> Only 6 million people would need to hit the button.
17:29 < superkuh> That's more than I thought it would take.
17:30 < kanzure> this was in the context of explaining copyright in a world of radically cheap copy abundance for digital information
17:33 < superkuh> Yes. I get it. Just being silly.
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17:42 < Jay_Dugger> Does the copied Manhattan have copied inhabitants?
17:43 < kanzure> https://screenrant.com/superman-returns-lex-luthor-not-villain-misunderstood/
17:44 < Jay_Dugger> "No," in other words?
17:47 < kanzure> Jay_Dugger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiln_People
17:48 < kanzure> "Luthor decides to place Krypton into the crystal and make a bunch of new islands. His plan is for world domination by bringing up new land which will cause drowning of the old ones like America and other similar continents. He will now evilly sell this new land and become a grillionaire !! Muhuahahahaaha. Wait, if everyone is kinda dead, who’s he planning on selling the new land to?"
17:49 < Jay_Dugger> I had forgotten Kiln People. Thank you for the reminder.
17:49 < kanzure> Muaddib: write a plot synopsis for a movie where lex luthor violates the most sacred law--- he violates international zoning law by making new land.
17:49 < Muaddib> kanzure: In a world where Lex Luthor has become the most powerful man alive, he uses his resources to create a new continent with plans of world domination in mind. With the creation of new land comes conflict, as the international community scrambles to put a stop to Luthor's plan. In a race against time, it's up
17:49 < kanzure> Muaddib: Continue with the plot synopsis.
17:49 < Muaddib> kanzure: In a race against time, it's up to a small group of brave individuals to stand up to Luthor and put an end to his evil scheme. As alliances form and secrets unfold, these heroes must make the ultimate sacrifice to protect the world from Luthor's domination and restore order and justice to the continents.
17:49 < Jay_Dugger> (I believe Muaddib is new to me.)
17:50 < kanzure> Jay_Dugger: crude GPT-3 imitation of https://chat.openai.com/chat
17:50 < nsh> seriously though, how many virgin ocelots and childhood dreams of innocence do i have to ritually sacrifice to get y'all to please for the love of god just learn ecology
17:50 < nsh> it's right there
17:50 < nsh> you can just literally lap it up
17:53 < L29Ah> nsh: what
17:56 < nsh> never-mind me. i'm just making crazy squiggles with my wild feral fingertips
17:57 < nsh> there's a place where you can do all of these things without scarcity or limits of any kind whatsoever. it's called "imagination"
17:58 < nsh> but for some reason everyone is absurdly loathe to do the the relatively modest but eminently possible inner work it requires to cultivate and harness this capacity and instead wants to defy harmony with great alacrity enthusiasm and aplomb
18:00 < nsh> and by all means go ahead but first maybe do some experiments to experience what different levels of disharmony are like in this wonderful experimental apparatus we all get to walk about in 
18:00 < nsh> before going ahead in a shared space
18:00 < L29Ah> i don't observe the problem you are describing, so please provide some examples
18:01 < nsh> we've tried press-button-get-more-while-ignoring-externalities 
18:01 < L29Ah> for example you probably want to switch "everyone" with something more specific (and less bullshit)
18:01 < nsh> the general consensus is that it's not going very well
18:02 < nsh> so yes, it's a good thing to transcend the trap of scarcity and imagine futures characterised by abundance and availability and infinite opportunity to explore possibilities and actualisation of potential
18:02 < nsh> that's eminently laudable as an aim, but one can also err in the other direction just as easily
18:03 < fenn> we want to do more than just imagine these futures
18:03 < nsh> yes, they should be brought about
18:03 < nsh> with caution
18:03 < nsh> like a child from a womb
18:04 < nsh> caution isn't the most ideal word, sorry
18:04 < nsh> proficiency, perhaps
18:04 < nsh> skilful-means
18:04 < nsh> expediency
18:04 < kanzure> what is not going very well, specifically?
18:05 < kanzure> people who worship negative externalities tend to discount all the positive externalities
18:05 < kanzure> in fact, i wonder if the positives and negatives actually cancel out for the most part
18:05 < nsh> there is an accounting
18:05 < kanzure> and let me guess, only $politicalfaction can do the audits?
18:06 < fenn> the glass is at 50% capacity
18:06 < kanzure> who audits the auditors?
18:06 < nsh> which is to say that as we have systematised human knowledge in its most elegant presentation all things can be reduced to the relationship between freedoms and conservations in symmetries
18:06 < nsh> generalised noetherian analysis
18:06 < fenn> so you're a zero sum game theorist now?
18:07 < nsh> so yes, wonderful and limitless things are possible, but they are more likely to come about while respecting balance
18:07 < kanzure> it is not possible to identify nsh in english words so much
18:09 < nsh> the thought experiment is easy enough in the reverse direction. imagine how you'd bring up a culture to the stage we're at now while avoiding all of the pitfalls that we have historical understanding of
18:11 < fenn> easy, just copy the minds of 8 billion humans and also the physical infrastructure
18:11 < nsh> and if there is some kind of sense of being able from the perspective of now to counsel someone 100,000 years ago then why expect that counsel couldn't be applied to us now from another perspective
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18:12 < fenn> i'm pretty sure anything i have to say on the subject of mammoth hunting is unhelpful
18:12 < nsh> having studied just a tiny bit of ecology would perhaps make it harder to imagine you can just transplant people from a particular niche to a wildly different one and expect that to just work out wonderfully smoothly
18:12 < fenn> "please don't kill *all* the mammoths"
18:12 < nsh> our immune system is horrifically maladapted to the world of 100,000 years ago
18:13 < nsh> our minds similarly in an analogous abstract manner
18:13 < kanzure> you would probably tell mammoth hunters about mammoth breeding/husbandry, not to stop hunting (which isn't helpful information)
18:13 < nsh> so there's a huge amount of bridging and translation that would have to go into the process
18:13 < nsh> you can't just copy and paste
18:13 < fenn> not all wild animals can be domesticated
18:13 < nsh> what's the greg egan novel that's pretty good on this
18:13 < nsh> diaspora maybe
18:14 < nsh> --
18:14 < nsh> By 2975 CE (Universal Time), the year in which the novel begins, humanity has "speciated" into three distinct groupings:
18:14 < nsh>     fleshers, biological societies consisting of statics, the original, naturally-evolving race of Homo sapiens, and a wide variety of exuberant derivatives, who have modified their genes beyond the static baseline. These include enhancements such as disease-resistance, life-extension, intelligence-amplification, and the ability to allow selected transhumans to thrive in new environments, such as the sea. There even exists a subculture (the dream apes) whose 
18:14 < nsh> ancestors bred out the capacity for speech and some of the higher brain-functions, apparently in order to attain a primal innocence and rapport with nature. In contrast to 21st-century society prior to the novel's "Introdus" event, the vast profusion of qualitatively different types of fleshers has made any sort of global civilisation impossible. This divergence has prompted the development of a culture of "Bridgers" who modify their own minds to form a chain 
18:14 < nsh> of intermediates between exuberant strains.
18:14 < nsh> -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(novel)
18:16 < nsh> easy to forget that some people are cursed with living in a large continental monoculture and don't get out much 
18:16 < nsh> only a few generations ago where i am you could go for day's walk and the customs would be so different your social survival skills would be relatively deprecated
18:18 < nsh> there are cities in italy where you have to watch the graffiti closely as you walk from borough to borough to get a sense of your safety wrt to political faultlines
18:19 < nsh> although to be fair you get that too in big cities for other socioeconomic and ethnic reasons
18:19 < nsh> usually signalled by the state of property and utilities 
18:20 < nsh> anyway, in conclusion, ignore me :)
18:32 < fenn> [redacted]
18:33 < fenn> if biological humans are still around in 1000 years, i'd say we're doing pretty well
18:35 < fenn> i wouldn't be surprised if deaf culture speciates
18:36 < fenn> not "in order to attain a primal innocence and rapport with nature" tho
18:37 < kanzure> helen keller culture
18:37 < fenn> she was pretty badass
18:41 < kanzure> if we promise to speciate early do you think the bioethicists will leave us alone
18:46 < L29Ah> depends on whether you enjoy living in a cage
18:46 < kanzure> we're all, like, living in the cages of our minds, man
18:47  * L29Ah throws symbols at kanzure
18:52 < fenn> psh.. wasting perfectly good symbols like that
18:53 < fenn> Muaddib: what if i told you...
18:53 < Muaddib> fenn: What if I told you I already knew?
18:53 < fenn> ohh GPT-3 has never read any image macros
18:54 < fenn> Muaddib: you poor thing
18:54 < Muaddib> fenn: I think you meant 'poor soul'!
19:01 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/polycypher/status/1609419907497889793
19:01 < saxo> This new year marks the 70th year since the structure of DNA was conceptualized in 1953, and the 50th year since the first IVF pregnancy occurred in 1973. The first preimplantation genetic testing followed in 1989 to prevent intellectual disability and adrenoleukodystrophy. (@polycypher) psa from .tw cmd: fuck twitter
19:05 < kanzure> anders collects beetles https://twitter.com/anderssandberg/status/1609678715520155649   let's all send him some rare ones
19:10 < fenn> those are some impressive beetles
19:10 < kanzure> .title https://nitter.nl/perrymetzger/status/1609713987452637185
19:10 < saxo> Perry E. Metzger (@perrymetzger): 'It’s always been the case that engineers operated without real understanding of the materials they worked with. Steam engines preceded the atomic theory of metals, understanding of combustion, and thermodynamics. Usually detailed understanding has come later.'|nitter
19:11 < fenn> "Keller supported eugenics which had become popular with new understandings (as well as misapprehensions) of principles of biological inheritance. In 1915, she wrote in favor of refusing life-saving medical procedures to infants with severe mental impairments or physical deformities, saying that their lives were not worthwhile and they would likely become criminals."
19:12 < fenn> what would keller say if she were alive today i wonder
19:13 < kanzure> oh that's pretty badass
19:13 < kanzure> private key checkpointing scheme https://gist.github.com/phyro/0fbe1bb4ddada0d6cc9b46ff1aaf600c
19:18 < fenn> well my appraisal of "badass"-ness was more about having her own views on politics and standing up for what she believed was right
19:19 < fenn> she held her own in the arena of excoriating letters to the editor
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--- Log closed Mon Jan 02 00:00:02 2023