--- Log opened Sun Jan 08 00:00:08 2023
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03:38 < nsh> capstone?
03:38 < nsh> '(transitive) To complete as a crowning achievement; to top off. '
03:39 < nsh> 'A capstone course, also known as senior synthesis, capstone unit, capstone module, capstone project, capstone subject, or capstone experience, serves as the culminating and usually integrative experience of an educational program. It may also be referred to as senior seminar or final year project. Wikipedia'
03:39 < nsh> people tend to just say dissertation here
03:39 < nsh> .ety dissertation
03:40 < saxo> "dissertation (n.)1610s, 'discussion, debate' (a sense now obsolete), from Late Latin dissertationem (nominative dissertatio) 'discourse,' noun of action from past-participle stem of Latin dissertare 'debate, argue, examine, harangue,' frequentative of disserere 'discuss, examine,' from dis- 'apart' (see dis-) + ..." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/dissertation
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07:01 < lsneff> they’re different
07:01 < lsneff> most engineering majors here have a capstone project, which is not a dissertation or thesis
07:03 < kanzure> "How organisms come to know the world: fundamental limits on artificial general intelligence" https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2021.806283/full
07:03 < kanzure> wherein stuart kauffman makes the bizarre argument that algorithms cannot have agency or open-ended evolution
07:09 < lsneff> “A general example of an affordance is the use of an object in the hands of an agent. We show that it is impossible to predefine a list of such uses. Therefore, they cannot be treated algorithmically. This means that “AI agents” and organisms differ in their ability to leverage new affordances. Only organisms can do this. This implies that true AGI is not achievable in the current algorithmic frame of AI research.”
07:09 < lsneff> how do they come up with this shit
07:10 < kanzure> depends on how you define "current algorithmic frame of AI research" and "organism" and "AI agent"
07:13 < kanzure> he's not wrong with the problems in Alife research
07:15 < kanzure> .g site:gnusha.org/logs "stuart kauffman"
07:15 < saxo> https://gnusha.org/logs/2008-08-27.log
07:40 < kanzure> .wik chaser (dog)
07:40 < saxo> "Chaser (April 28, 2004 – July 23, 2019) was a Border Collie with the largest tested memory of any non-human animal. Chaser worked with Professor John W. Pilley, at his home in Spartanburg, South Carolina, from eight weeks old, until Pilley's death in June 2018." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaser_(dog)
08:06 < kanzure> chimpanzee number memory training game https://mtriad.github.io/1/ 
08:08 < kanzure> .wik ayumu (chimpanzee)
08:08 < saxo> "Ayumu (born 24 April 2000) is a chimpanzee currently living at the Primate Research Institute of Kyoto University. He is the son of chimpanzee Ai, and has been a participant since infancy in the Ai Project, an ongoing research effort aimed at understanding chimpanzee [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayumu_(chimpanzee)
08:17 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34291191
08:17 < saxo> Production Twitter on one machine? 100Gbps NICs and NVMe are fast | Hacker News
08:31 < kanzure> https://www.techrxiv.org/articles/preprint/A_Hard_Energy_Use_Limit_of_Artificial_Superintelligence/21588612
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09:49 < kanzure> "Method of fertilizing an avian egg in a shell" https://patents.google.com/patent/US6573097B2/en by "Ovo Biosciences"
10:04 < kanzure> .title https://efile.aphis.usda.gov/LRAssistant/s/
10:04 < saxo> URLError: <urlopen error [SSL: CERTIFICATE_VERIFY_FAILED] certificate verify failed (_ssl.c:720)> (title:73)
10:07 < kanzure> huh they have a full list of all licensed animal breeding facilities https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/List-of-Active-Licensees-and-Registrants.xlsx
10:11 < kanzure> i see 21st century medicine in the list
10:15 < kanzure> "Examples of businesses not needing licensing or registration include those that handle only fish, reptiles, and amphibians."
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14:50 < nsh> https://wires.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/wcms.1233
14:50 < nsh> (checking for follow-ups to: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/02/040203235638.htm )
14:50 < nsh> .t
14:50 < saxo> 'Rule-breaking' Molecule Could Lead To Non-metal Magnets -- ScienceDaily
14:50 < nsh> (Hund's rule of maximum multiplicity [of spin-orbital state occupation order heuristic] violation)
14:51 < nsh> from 2004
14:52 < nsh> .t https://www.rcptm.com/vedci-potvrdili-dalsi-postup-pro-vyvoj-nekovoveho-magnetu-vsadili-na-velikost-a-tvar/
14:52 < saxo> Scientists report progress in the development of non-metallic magnet  –  Regional Centre of Advanced Technologies and Materials
14:52 < nsh> graphene 'imprinting' (presumably some kind of stress configuration)
14:54 < nsh> .t https://www.acsmaterial.com/blog-detail/what-are-nanoplatelets.html
14:54 < saxo> What Are Nanoplatelets?
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15:29 < fenn> "The credit for a discovery should not go to the first discoverer but to the last.  The last discoverer did the work to make sure it stays discovered."
15:45 < kanzure> https://github.com/topics/artificial-life
15:47 < kanzure> https://github.com/devosoft/avida http://avida.devosoft.org/
15:48 < kanzure> "The surprising creativity of digital evolution" https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.03453 (2018)
15:48 < nsh> that's a lot of authors
15:49 < nsh> 30 institutions
15:49 < nsh> 34 even
15:50 < nsh> ah this is like the journal paper version of the spreadsheet thing
15:50 < nsh> nice
15:50 < nsh> (specification hacking anecdotes spreadsheet)
15:51 < muurkha> right, where AIs and other optimization systems ended up finding holes in their utility functions
15:53 < kanzure> oh i see, levin cites that.
15:54 < kanzure> do we have software that performs the mouse intelligence/memory testing tasks at mouse-level performance?
15:55 < kanzure> maybe that's answered solely by "path finding"
15:57 < kanzure> there does not seem to be a good open-source GPU-accelerated artificial life simulator. there is this thing: https://alien-project.org/ but it might be more of an art project?
15:59 < kanzure> https://alien-project.gitbook.io/docs/dive-a-little-deeper/evolution-simulations
15:59 < kanzure> https://github.com/chrxh/alien/tree/develop/examples/patterns/replicators
16:00 < kanzure> oh, those are blobs :|
16:00 < kanzure> yeah nevermind. there seems to be no good simulator with modern architecture.
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16:42 < nsh> (optimal mouse performance levels tend to be in environments quite dissimilar to mean human experimenter laboratories)
16:46 < kanzure> .wik smart breeding
16:46 < saxo> "Marker assisted selection or marker aided selection (MAS) is an indirect selection process where a trait of interest is selected based on a marker (morphological, biochemical or DNA/RNA variation) linked to a trait of interest (e.g. productivity, disease resistance, abiotic [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_breeding
16:48 < kanzure> .wik molecular breeding
16:48 < saxo> "Molecular breeding is the application of molecular biology tools, often in plant breeding and animal breeding. In the broad sense, molecular breeding can be defined as the use of genetic manipulation performed at the level of DNA to improve traits of interest in plants and [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_breeding
17:11 < muurkha> often?  does that mean that at times it's the application of molbio tools without any breeding?
17:16 < kanzure> .wik lexicase selection
17:16 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicase_selection gave 404 | Searched en for 'lexicase selection' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
17:27 < fenn> often means it's not exclusive to the plant and animal kingdoms, perhaps there are breweries that do this. (bacteria and archaea don't "breed" per-se)
17:28 < fenn> it seems like a pointless hedge word in this context
17:31 < fenn> heh it was written by Dan Bolser originally, and made no mention of animal breeding
17:33 < fenn> so "often" means "it's usually plants"
17:37 < kanzure> "Recent estimates of the "total number of people who have ever lived" are in the order of 100 billion.[10][11]" ok but does that include all the different population bottlenecks we hit?
17:37 < kanzure> oh it was faceface?
17:39 < kanzure> "How many people have ever lived on earth?" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12288594/
17:40 < kanzure> is this a properly conservative estimate..?
17:41 < kanzure> there are no papers that extend this work
17:41 < kanzure> from 1995
17:43 < muurkha> fenn: hmm, interesting.  you can breed fungi too
17:43 < muurkha> (perhaps that is why you mentioned breweries)
17:45 < kanzure> kinda interesting that there have been at least a few trillion person-years of lived human experience
17:46 < kanzure> not counting pre-homosapien time
17:48 < nsh> an hour catching up with an old friend and 10 minutes stuck in traffic when you're desperate for the toilet are not necessarily trivially commensurate measures
17:48 < kanzure> anyway, there is some relationship to breeding acceleration programs and population size and evolution temporal compression
17:48 < nsh> mountains have had lots of time for experiences
17:48 < kanzure> nsh: admittedly much of the trillions of years is actually just los angeles traffic jam time, but we accept them as valid humans.
17:48 < nsh> :)
17:49 < nsh> i like in the end of the foundation series I/We/Gaia could consult down to the level of mountains but you sort of had to ask slow and kinda deep questions and expect the same sort of responses
17:49 < nsh> lama lena also talks about conversing with land spirits in similar tones
17:50 < nsh> if you wanna know what it's like being a big mound of earth and grass and how such a being would think about some things then probably not best to ask about bridge etiquette
17:50 < nsh> (the card game)
17:51 < kanzure> we are producing about 50 billion chicken-years/year (+/- 130 million/day)
17:51 < nsh> similarly there are times when it's 'auspicious' to ponder certain things because the alignment of massive bodies is such that subtle information flows that piggy back on inertial carrier waves have a higher bandwidth
17:52 < nsh> full and new moons for instance
17:52 < kanzure> it's too bad that most of those chicken years aren't for causes like chicken uplifting but it's at least evidence that we can run large-scale programs
17:54 < kanzure> and we harvest ~1 trillion fish/year http://fishcount.org.uk/fish-count-estimates-2/numbers-of-fish-caught-from-the-wild-each-year     not sure about man-made programs
18:03 < kanzure> only 1 billion frogs/year https://news.mongabay.com/2009/01/one-billion-frogs-harvested-as-food-per-year/
18:05 < muurkha> fish are more popular
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20:25 < kanzure> "The major milestone in 20th-century poultry production was the discovery of vitamin D,[22] which made it possible to keep chickens in confinement year-round. Before this, chickens did not thrive during the winter."
20:26 < kanzure> "At the same time, egg production was increased by scientific breeding. After a few false starts, (such as the Maine Experiment Station's failure at improving egg production) success was shown by Professor Dryden at the Oregon Experiment Station.[24]"
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20:38 < kanzure> "[Dryden's] theory, which he now set out to test, was that the reason for the failure of other experimenters to breed better layers was that they had been breeding for a broad array of other attributes at the same time: straighter tails, more symmetrical combs, prettier feathers, and so forth. He also noted that the previous experiments had been with purebred chickens, which raised the ...
20:38 < kanzure> ...possibility that inbreeding might have caused the resulting chicks to be less robust. A less robust chicken will obviously lay fewer eggs."
20:40 < kanzure> apparently there was some kind of eugenics war against chicken cross-breeding that dryden was violating the consensus of?
20:41 < kanzure> everyone else was going for fancy feathers in competitions
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--- Log closed Mon Jan 09 00:00:09 2023