--- Log opened Thu Jan 19 00:00:19 2023
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05:53 < hprmbridge> docl> If you were growing it to make caffeine with the decaf as a waste product you'd be losing money. If you can sell the decaf at close to the same price as regular coffee that's a different story though. Also turns out caffeine synthesis isn't that hard and they've been doing it since WWII
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07:03 < kanzure> "Verve Therapeutics launched a trial of a CRISPR-based therapy that alters genetic code to permanently lower cholesterol levels."  has that actually been tested in other animals? like just perpetually low cholesterol?
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07:13 < nsh> cyanide yields asymptotically zero cholesterol 
07:17 < nsh> three quarters of the things i read in this channel tend to make me wonder if Ted Kaczynski was too much of an optimist
07:23 < kanzure> why are you here
07:23 < kanzure> i mean if it's that bad
07:24 < nsh> curmudgeonry as duty
07:25 < nsh> .ety curmudgeon
07:25 < hplusbot> nsh: "churlish, miserly fellow, mean man," 1570s, of unknown origin. The suggestion, based on a misreading of a garbled note from Johnson, that it is from French coeur mechant "evil heart" is not taken seriously; nor is the notion [in Century Dictionary] that it is a corruption of corn merchant (with the notion of "one who withholds food"). The first syllable may be cur "dog." Liberman says the word ...
07:29 < nsh> if i actually had no faith i'd not be here. having faith in a better humanity through the judicious application of technology *despite* seeing everybody in a furious state of reckless abandon to do everything as quickly and myopically as possible is the more challenging disposition
07:30 < nsh> i am also prone to hyperbole for ironic effect which doesn't necessarily convey the intended degree of tongue-in-cheek at all times :)
07:34 < nsh> and what may be perceived as a cacophony of foibles in proximity does have a remarkable tendency nevertheless over a longer period to contribute to serendipity, if only by virtue of counterexample - endeavour in the broad being as ever all grist to the mill 
07:36 < docl> what's your ideal world? what would you work towards if given free reign to do so?
07:38 < nsh> out of interest, what's the largest yoke of natural animus you have had the reins of?
07:39 < nsh> have you controlled a team of horses, or corralled a herd, or kept a garden?
07:39 < docl> have I ridden a horse? yes. not an elephant though
07:40 < nsh> one is by and by disabused of such notions as 'free rein' when engaged in husbandry to any appreciable degree
07:42 < nsh> alternatively one could have an instructive period of life in some petty realm of politics and see how much fun it is dealing with crowds of higher primates
07:42 < docl> this is a hypothetical scenario and an analogy. I am asking you what you want. how would you, for example, alter the discourse of this chat room to better reflect your values, if everyone present were agreeable
07:42 < nsh> hereby :)
07:43 < docl> more old timey language? more sophistry? more humor?
07:44 < nsh> less "control everything and put it towards <simplistic notion of some thing that should be maximised>"
07:44 < nsh> ideally no thinking of that level whatsoever
07:46 < nsh> openness to embracing instead notions such as complex dynamic equilibria, interpenetration of agencies, mutuality and generalise symbiosis 
07:46 < nsh> *generalised
07:46 < nsh> a sense of the commonweal
07:48 < nsh> sensitively codependent origination of phenomena
07:51 < docl> I see value in both modes of thinking. e.g. one can use oversimplification to make a complex point. it often depends on the audience understanding it's an oversimplification though (the illusion of transparency can be a hazard here)
07:51 < nsh> a rich and complex layering in superposition of requirements, aspirations, valuations and capacities to interact as a more than the sum of parts by maximally autonomous overlapping entities of agency explored through playful massively participatory collective coimagination of future scenarios trajectories in a massively multidimensional space of possibility
07:52 < nsh> *scenario
07:52 < docl> sometimes, you need a rational number close enough to pi to get the job done and only so many digits to represent it in
07:53 < nsh> aye, we should genetically engineer mathematics to produce more pie
07:53 < nsh> that's something everyone can get behind
07:53 < docl> :)
07:54 < kanzure> we could engineer mathematicians...
07:56 < nsh> it's useful perhaps to think about 'where' the mathematics happens when we use our imagination to do it
07:56 < kanzure> why? that's like chasing a homunculus
07:57 < nsh> Nikola Tesla's imagination was so sharpened by his quite believable testimony that he could could run entire weeks long experiments on novel electrical machines entirely there and bring them to a satisfactory state of refinement before putting his arms to work on materials
07:58 < nsh> to the extent that he would leave a machine running for a few days in his mind and go back to check the wear on the bearings
07:58 < nsh> sadly one suspects this is pretty much out of reach of almost everybody today, absent some kind of something or other
07:59 < nsh> nevertheless i can explore pretty advanced novel mathematical concepts in the same space
07:59 < nsh> it's just another kind of muscle memory
08:02 < nsh> and if the stubbornly persistent illusion that such a space cannot be rendered broadly shareable/participatory were to be eroded, perhaps with some help from today's technology, we might make the kind of progress that unlocks a the potential for a lot more of the same
08:03 < nsh> -a
08:05 < nsh> one of my medium term ambitions/projects is for a pipeline that would allow putting in scientific literature and through some very algorithmically-enhanced cybernetic wiki-like process render them all into an immersive fully interactive virtual environment as a kind of garden living museum of knowledge with all the social advantages of the locality of things
08:06 < nsh> it's not all that many steps in principle between the average paper and something like a science exploratorium exhibit that any 12 year old child can walk up to in wonder and play around with and gain an understanding through rich interaction 
08:06 < nsh> and there is a massively positive feedback and network effect once something like this starts to become feasible
08:07 < nsh> or we could take all the caffeine out of the coffee bean plant idk whatever i'm just a public telephone sanitation engineer :)
08:10 < docl> hmm. representing concepts in ways one can learn more fluidly aligns with my interests. it's often a source of extraordinary frustration when I see math rendered in greek symbols and don't have the "muscle memory", so to speak, to interpret it
08:10  * nsh nods
08:11 < docl> reminds me, I should watch more of this guy's work. https://www.youtube.com/c/3blue1brown
08:16 < nsh> a few other people have used the library he wrote for his animations to great effect too
08:17 < nsh> there's a lass who's done some great deep dives on bézier curves
08:17 < nsh> .t https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVwxzDHniEw&list=PLnQX-jgAF5pTkwtUuVpqS5tuWmJ-6ZM-Z&index=2
08:17 < hplusbot> nsh: did you mean twitter, tell, tarot, ts, tag, tags, tagged, title, tv, tv_next, tv_prev, tv_last or translate?
08:17 < hplusbot> nsh: The Beauty of Bézier Curves - length 24m26s - 89513↑0↓ - 1,497,878 views - Freya Holmér on 2021.08.19
08:18 < docl> using chatgpt to convert to more parseable verbal, and/or code example helps sometimes as well. it sucks at diagrams but maybe that will change
08:18 < docl> will check that out
08:19 < nsh> quite a few appealing entries in that playlist
08:25 < docl> very cool. something I'm interested in "leveling up", so to speak, is molecular dynamics (specifically anything related to spiroligomers, maybe protein folding as a precursor topic). while I can appreciate pure math for its own sake to some extent, generally, seeing a practical application tends to make more of a feedback to my reward mechanism (or even impractical if neat/sci-fi enough)
08:33 < nsh> aye a good few applications of practicality do seem to depend on dynamic molecules :)
08:34 < nsh> i was briefly very interested in solvation shells when i was working as a geneticist. i still don't really have any meaningful intuition for what solutions are in a dynamic sense at the molecular level 
08:34 < docl> for sure. I feel like I can't shut up about spiroligomers at times because of all the weird and amazing stuff it apparently unlocks (and how close to fruition it appears)
08:35 < nsh> and it's of great importance to protein folding and other cellular processes gubbins given the potential informational complexity of the medium 
08:36 < nsh> (i was technically just a fruit fly servant lab assistant during my finnish civilian national service but i spent a lot of time doing study while i was in the environment)
08:37 < nsh> and endless PCRs and buffer mixings and gel electrophoeresis 
08:39 < nsh> to mildly sharpen a few confidence intervals as to exactly how more easily dizzy drosophila get when certain mitochondrial genes are knocked out resulting CNS degregation
08:39 < nsh> +in
08:39 < nsh> and lots of things were made to glow for variably dubious purposes
08:39 < docl> ah, good old lab assisting :) I did some low complexity work in that regard for a cryonics research company (well, 2 actually: ANBS and oregon cryo). I mostly changed rat cages, but also mixed solutions and got to observe. can you maybe give us an oversimplistic POV on solvation shells?
08:40 < nsh> .wik Solvation shell
08:40 < hplusbot> nsh: Solvation shell - A solvation shell or solvation sheath is the solvent interface of any chemical compound or biomolecule that constitutes the solute. When the solvent is water it is called a hydration shell or hydration sphere. The number of solvent molecule... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvation_shell
08:40 < nsh> --
08:40 < nsh> The hydration shell (also sometimes called hydration layer) that forms around proteins is of particular importance in biochemistry. This interaction of the protein surface with the surrounding water is often referred to as protein hydration and is fundamental to the activity of the protein.[2] The hydration layer around a protein has been found to have dynamics distinct from the bulk water to a distance of 1 nm. The duration of contact of a specific water 
08:41 < nsh> molecule with the protein surface may be in the subnanosecond range while molecular dynamics simulations suggest the time water spends in the hydration shell before mixing with the outside bulk water could be in the femtosecond to picosecond range,[2] and that near features conventionally regarded as attractive to water, such as hydrogen bond donors, the water molecules are actually relatively weakly bound and are easily displaced.[
08:41 < nsh> --
08:41 < docl> ok, hydration shell I've heard of. so this is the more generalized term for that?
08:41 < nsh> hydr means water
08:42 < nsh> .ety hydrate
08:42 < hplusbot> nsh: "compound of water and another chemical," 1802, from French hydrate, coined c. 1800 by French chemist Joseph-Louis Proust (1754-1826) from Greek hydr-, stem of hydor "water," from suffixed form of PIE root *wed- (1) "water; wet."). Also formerly applied to compounds formed on the same type as H2O.
08:42 < docl> always? or only when not meaning hydrogen?
08:42 < nsh> as opposed to another solute
08:43 < docl> .ety hydro
08:43 < hplusbot> docl: short for hydro-electric, from 1916.
08:44 < docl> .title https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/GalwayMayo_Institute_of_Technology/Chemistry_1.1_(GMIT)/02%3A_Molecules%2C_Compounds_and_Chemical_Equations/2.05%3A_Molecular_Compounds-_Formulas_and_Names
08:44 < hplusbot> docl: 2.5: Molecular Compounds- Formulas and Names - Chemistry LibreTexts
08:44 < docl> The word “hydrogen” is changed to the prefix hydro- The other nonmetallic element name is modified by adding the suffix -ic The word “acid” is added as a second word
08:44 < docl> ok but you're right, hydration -> water is obvious
08:44 < nsh> within cells there might be a whole range of factors that determine the molecular dynamics within the solution, including acoustic (pressure waves impinging from cellular membranes), electromagnetic influences, non-thermal [that is not 'random'] dynamics of the solute molecules, etc.
08:46 < nsh> the naive conception for a long time was that molecules just wiggle and wobbles about stochastically until some vague lock-and-key type affinities were activated by blind lock of proximity
08:46 < nsh> but that's slowly giving way to more sophisticated ways of looking at things
08:46 < nsh> *luck
08:47 < nsh> there's also sociocultural issues, e.g. the mixed blessing of the rise of bioinformatics and availability of genetic data meant that everything became about signalling pathways and other factors were backgrounded perhaps to an unnecessary degeree
08:47 < nsh> *degree
08:47 < nsh> but science is very of a case of looking for your car keys under the streetlamp
08:48 < nsh> and occasionally finding a book of matches
08:48 < docl> ah yes. holds true for the learning process in general
08:52 < docl> so there's stuff that's non-lock-and-key? in the category of "encoded into the mechanism is enough of an accounting for the complex curves of the fluid dynamics to sufficient accuracy to cause the outcome"?
08:53 < nsh> Pensinger would lament about this quite reliably. i'll try and find some vaguely comprehensible passage
08:56 < nsh> e.g.
08:56 < nsh> --
08:56 < nsh>  Superconductant DNA's p-electron parcel temperature oscillations -- as intracellular Zeitgeber -- govern DNA-generated coherent waves which structure water inside the protein cylinder of cellular microtubules. These microtubules act as wave guides by selecting for wave trace velocities. This quasi-superradiance -- thermal energy transformed to coherent “light” pulses, the transformation involving intermolecular electron transport (Foster, 1969 and Slifk
08:56 < nsh> in, 1971) and a process at the submolecular level analogous to the functioning of a screen grid in a radio beam power tube -- mediates a self-induced transparency (microtubules conduct coherent pulses like fibre-optic cable) necessary for the aggregate cytoskeleton to function as an “optical” computer (Hammeroff, 1987 and Hammeroff, Rasmussen, and Mansson, 1988 and Penrose, 1994). The cellular automata engaged in mutual “switching” to induce self-organiz
08:57 < nsh> ed activity patterns perform pure multivalued wave-effect processing: no binary switches are involved. These factors underlie collective behaviors of neuronal, perineural, and somatic cell aggregates -- as well as the deterministic genetic adaptation of bacterial cell colonies (Lipkin, 1995). Why is this quantum level explanation required? Because thermodynamically-driven stereochemical lock-and-key-device processes do not, and, in principle, cannot, explain 
08:57 < nsh> functional integration. What evidence do we have of this? The whole realm of degenerative disease is not understood, which means that growth-and-repair processes in organic systems are not adequately understood. Moreover, genetic variability of disease vectors is not merely a matter of misuse of antibiotics and random mutations; highly self-organized quantum exchange processes are at the root of it, implicating electromagnetic pollution (Becker, 1974 and 1990), 
08:57 < nsh> an ozone-depletion-driven changing UV environment, and response of flora and fauna to the radiational impacts of recombinant DNA technologies.
08:57 < nsh> -- http://second-sites.com/m-value/LukasGodelEncoding.html
08:57 < docl> (I'm analogizing this to FEM/FEA where they use a library of curves that approximate other curves to render physics tractable... Obviously-in-hindsight, biology, as the result of brute forcing "whatever works", would at least implicitly do the same sort of thing, when/where feasible without mucking up something critical.)
08:59 < nsh> (NB: most people would write off Pensinger as "mad as a bag of spiders" so feel free to do so without trying especially hard to penetrate the beautiful tapestry of sheer divinely genius shielded for the protection of our puny souls by schizotypal word salad that is his oeuvre)
09:00 < docl> lol yeah I was going to say. maybe I can get chatgpt to preparse it for me
09:00 < nsh> lol
09:01 < nsh> higher hermeneutics are beyond GPT's gift for the time behind 
09:01 < nsh> *being
09:03 < docl> are there... more mainstream reports of non-lock-and-key behavior?
09:04 < nsh> i'd probably trade a kidney for safe passage to cambodia to sit out the next decade just chatting with him tbh
09:04 < nsh> he mightn't have more than that left in him, but longer inshallah
09:05 < docl> > The author is discussing the role of superconductant DNA in the functioning of cellular microtubules. They suggest that temperature oscillations in the p-electron parcels of DNA govern the formation of coherent waves that structure the water inside the protein cylinder of microtubules. These microtubules act as wave guides, and the process by which thermal energy is transformed into coherent "light" 
09:06 < docl> pulses is called quasi-superradiance. The author argues that this process is necessary for the aggregate cytoskeleton to function as an "optical" computer and that it underlies collective behaviors of various types of cell aggregates. They also suggest that this quantum level explanation is required to understand functional integration in organic systems and that degenerative diseases and genetic 
09:06 < docl> variability of disease vectors can be linked to highly self-organized quantum exchange processes, electromagnetic pollution, and the radiational impacts of recombinant DNA technologies.
09:11 < nsh> there are several ways to approach Pensinger. the most accessible would be just to mine the seam for all the vast, diverse and rich wealth of references he makes to people who are a lot easier to understand
09:11 < nsh> that's like the window-shopping level of appreciation
09:12 < nsh> the next tier above that would be to seriously delve into it with maximum autism superpowers for a few weeks until things that to connect to each other on the subconscious level and it vaguely begins to make some sense
09:13 < nsh> then one can consider actually processing each sentence exactly as it's presented at which point you'll basically be cultivating an entire complementary/antagonistic ontology and epistemology
09:14 < nsh> not many people (one imagines) are inclined to try to hold such a thing in their mind and give it all the hospitality of a noble guest in its entirety
09:15 < nsh> if nothing else it's a good workout
09:17 < nsh> ' An intelligent humanity would seek to deeply comprehend the quantum substrate of planetary autopoiesis, self-organization, and self-repair. It would then analogically embody the involved principles in its social, political, and economic interfaces with natural processes, and by so doing attempt to positively reinforce the planet's self-homeotherapeutics. One strategic move in this direction would involve implementation of m-logically-valued monetary units so 
09:17 < nsh> as to internalize market externalities in the fashion required to encourage by incentive and sanction the full spectrum of collective human behaviors currently prescribed by the planet.'
09:17 < nsh> this remainds one of my other medium-term ambitions/projects
09:18 < nsh> and maybe when everyone in the sphere of potentially m-logically-valued monetary units is done being a bunch of berks we can proceed with aplomb and gusto 
09:18 < nsh> but that does seem to be taking its sweet time
09:21 < nsh> whereas in sweeter times https://archive.org/details/TeslaArticlesElectricalExperimenter
09:32 < docl> Nikola Tesla: Prodigal Genius was formative for me. We had an older copy. I picture things but not in the kind of detail described (checking on a device for wear weeks later). I'd envy him more if not for the hypersensitivity and other issues
09:39 < docl> does he define "m-logically-valued"? money that gets de/valued based on externalities? I might agree with this statement on some level. argh I'm getting rabbit-holed
09:40 < nsh> so he believes that we should transcend binary/bimodal logic
09:40 < nsh> (i tend to agree)
09:41 < nsh> and he goes further and says that we should try to conceptualise/think/exist/imagine in a logical sphere where there are an uncountable infinity of possible valuations
09:41 < nsh> any subset of which could be at any time
09:41 < nsh> you might think of it as the equivalent of going from digital to analogue computing but for logic
09:42 < nsh> or think of it as a hierarchy that is built up constructively from base logics up to infinite cases
09:42 < docl> well my justification for binary logic (occurred to me as a teenager) is that we need a clear line of separation between curves and straight lines. if you divide circumference by radius you get something with infinite digits, sort of says we need two-ness.
09:42 < nsh> which is the Łukasiewicz angle
09:43 < nsh> binary aspect doesn't go away, it just gets enhanced
09:43 < nsh> as when black and white television was replaced by colour television
09:44 < nsh> that which is distinguished becomes ever more refined
09:44 < nsh> up to qualia
09:44 < docl> maybe it's only safe to say that we need binary for practical purposes. that which is more crudely distinguished is less resource intensive to represent
09:45 < nsh> in fact it's more resource intensive
09:45 < nsh> because you can do things a lot more efficiently in a higher category
09:45 < nsh> however it's harder to reason about 
09:46 < nsh> but mostly by virtue of not many attempts yet having been made
10:10 < kanzure> bunnie huang gave a presentation in my workshop yesterday on security and (not entirely) open hardware: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMOWU6pFflw
10:10 < hplusbot> kanzure: Silicon Salon III: Bunnie Studios Presentation - length 26m4s - 0↑0↓ - 8 views - BlockchainCommons on 2023.01.19
10:11 < kanzure> "Q: Hi, yes. Your presentation was horrifying. I know your reputation as a hardware hacker, but why do you work on hardware given all of these crippling security problems? I know there's some hope, but maybe you have an argument here. Why not just use software verification and hash functions and heterogenous hardware?"
10:11 < kanzure> his reply:
10:11 < kanzure> "A: Another area of research I'm doing is trying to figure out how to make hardware more transparent and inspectable at the user level. There's some interesting work in infrared imaging. Reading transistor memory values off the back with optics, it works both ways: there are attacker tools and defender tools. We can look at the transistors from the back and make sure it's correct from the back ...
10:11 < kanzure> ...end. The problem is that these inspection tools cost $1 million each. But a much cheaper version turns out to be a DSR camera from Sony, you remove the infrared filter, and you light up your chip with an infrared light source, you actually can see transistors. Nobody is doing this. I think we can solve this problem. I think we're not screwed. I think there's a way to solve this. I think we can ...
10:12 < kanzure> ...have standards and ways to get that trust back. We haven't made it a priority though, for many reasons."
10:12 < kanzure> "I am excited to be working with Cramium becaues if I have my way, we will have packaging where the backside is transparent and we could have a tool that users can use to take a picture of the backside of their Cramium chip and show that it matches to a few micron resolution of what we expect to have. This rules out a large range of supply chain attacks. Not all of them, but a lot of them. ...
10:12 < kanzure> ...This raises the bar again in terms of where we're at. I agree with you that hardware is terrifying, I just think there's still hope. It's a hard and lonely hill to climb. A lot of people don't care, and it's still largely theoretical problem."
10:25 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/skooookum/status/1615755389596798976
10:25 < hplusbot> kanzure: error: invalid username
10:25 < hplusbot> kanzure: 2023-01-18 16:57:58 skooookum: addy xr. 500mg caffeine. meditation, monk mode. athletic greens. code katas. keto. no bitches.   for what? to write better glue code for your b2b saas invoicing app?   john von neumann’s favorite hobby was drunk driving
10:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Heh, bunny gonna be upset when he starts working on modern chips where you can't easily perform super resolution optical microscopy
10:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> (i assume)
10:35 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Or don't have jtag scanchain access to isolate circuit nodes
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11:42 < jrayhawk> kanzure: the .tw command is for searching twitter. just stop including it.
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12:15 < fenn> don't be so open minded your brain falls out
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12:15 < fenn> a quantum woo technocracy is a dystopia that hasn't been speculated about afaik
12:16 < fenn> or would it be a theocracy? the god of the gaps
12:16 < fenn> lysenkoism is a thing that actually happened
12:31 < docl> good point. chatgpt is pretty great at generating woo stuff
12:36 < fenn> i meant pensinger's system of "implementation of m-logically-valued monetary units" and probably banning electronics and biotech along the way
12:37 < fenn> which sounds like a dystopia to me
12:37 < fenn> just not a very interesting one
12:44 < docl> agreed. I kinda think money units that internalize externalities more is plausible, but from what I see pensinger's mechanism seems uh, dubious. and economics divorced from mechanism is historically super dangerous. he's got the mental process of "treat different things as really the same thing" running in overdrive. unifying one's mental models isn't always bad, but there's a point where it stops 
12:45 < docl> describing or even approximating reality
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13:25 < kanzure> would it be possible to make a "consensus genome" for mammalian brains?
13:26 < TMA> kanzure: how would the differences be resolved?
13:26 < kanzure> well how many differences are there really
13:27 < kanzure> like if it's mostly promoters and transcription factors then i think that can be handled with a simple expressive language
13:28 < TMA> I think there are some structural differences as well, so some of the HOX complex can be involved as well
13:28 < TMA> and that is afaik poorly understood
13:31  * TMA might be behind with reading though
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14:45 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=accebee6 Bryan Bishop: ENSG00000205704 for human neural progenitor overexpression >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/
14:49 < L29Ah> https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/founder-and-majority-owner-cryptocurrency-exchange-charged-processing-over-700-million
14:50 < L29Ah> .t
14:50 < hplusbot> L29Ah: did you mean twitter, tell, tarot, ts, tag, tags, tagged, title, tv, tv_next, tv_prev, tv_last or translate?
15:03 < kanzure> diagramming tool for manuscripts https://biorender.com/
15:07 < kanzure> from https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m25I4lM_WiZlIrtnvE5Xs-cPAellQWb8/view figure 2 comparing mouse corticogenesis versus human corticogenesis
15:40 < kanzure> @Synopticz: have you seen the volcano brain preservation https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc1909867 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51221334
15:54 < docl> somewhat different form of vitrification from the ideal...
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19:26 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> theoretically if enough information could be extracted from the man's brain, you could then map the fragments you get to a 'latent space' of "working human neural maps"
19:26 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> so the idea is we're trying to find a working neural map that has all of the features we extracted from the vitrified tissue
19:27 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> once you find some working ones, these new brains might at least have personality tendencies similar to the original
19:27 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> it is a shame there probably isn't enough information to ask and read off mind's eye visalizations of what it was like actually *living* in roman times
19:27 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> but theoretically this is possible if the preservation were extremely good
19:29 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> this is why cryo revival is, surprisingly, always "possible".  But it's the same argument - particularly low quality samples, you may not be able to get anything interesting
19:29 < hprmbridge> kanzure> maybe there are new roman photons that we can collect from bounces off space objects
19:29 < hprmbridge> kanzure> oops i mean enough, not new
19:30 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> noise....
19:30 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> like when you are talking about a signal *that* weak it probably cannot be distinguished from random background noise, there just isn't extractable information
19:31 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> it's weaker than trying to reconstruct someone's body from the pattern of ash after they were cremated
19:31 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> same unfortunate issue - it probably can't be done
20:00 < lsneff> .t http://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/11/hypervelocity-macron-accelerators.html
20:00 < hplusbot> lsneff: did you mean twitter, tell, tarot, ts, tag, tags, tagged, title, tv, tv_next, tv_prev, tv_last or translate?
20:00 < lsneff> .title http://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/11/hypervelocity-macron-accelerators.html
20:00 < hplusbot> lsneff: ToughSF:  Hypervelocity Macron Accelerators
20:00 < lsneff> Really interested in these hypervelocity macrons for fusion propulsion
20:01 < lsneff> Or maybe even fusion energy
20:01 < lsneff> Using kinetic impacts is a really good way of compressing power over a long period of time into a very short period
20:05 < lsneff> Unsure of why this hasn't been pursued. Does it run into issues with weapon development regulations?
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21:03 < fenn> "Winterberg shared his ideas on beam weapons with the U.S. Air Force and he speculated on the subject in publications for the Fusion Energy Foundation (FEF), a part of the Lyndon LaRouche movement. The FEF published a book of Winterberg describing the design of the hydrogen bomb, with the hope of getting research in inertial confinement fusion declassified.
21:03 < fenn> Winterberg stresses inertial confinement fusion."
21:03 < fenn> perhaps he knows something that's not public info
21:09 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> Yeah as a beam weapon - you'd need 2 of them to make it a neutral particle beam - it would be very powerful
21:10 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> especially the fission variant
21:10 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> How good your beam quality can be determines whether it's useful as a weapon or for spacecraft riding the beam
21:12 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> yet another cool idea that probably won't be here pre AGI and so it won't matter
21:17 < fenn> the particles are far enough apart that they wouldn't interact with each other
21:19 < fenn> when charge is transferred to the (much larger) target on impact it spreads out, reducing field strength and would have a negligible effect on the incoming particle stream
21:22 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> hope so.  that 'bloom' makes plasma weapons not actually work in reality
21:23 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> or charged particle beams
21:23 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> in space battles range is everything, nothing else would matter
21:27 < fenn> since it seems like you haven't heard of this: https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2018/04/04/procsima-wedding-two-beam-concepts/
21:29 < fenn> continued on https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2018/04/05/tightening-the-beam-correspondence-on-procsima/
21:45 < fenn> https://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/02/cold-laser-coupled-particle-beams.html
22:41 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> Thanks for the articles fenn
22:41 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> the thing is, for accelerating spacecraft you have other options
22:41 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> the obvious one being just a fixed linear accelerator long enough to get the spacecraft to your cruise speed of 0.5 C in one shot
22:42 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> as long as you just carry the minds of your organic crew in a file and do other things to make your payload able to handle the enormous accelerations
22:42 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> this is straightforward and doable
22:42 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> but as a WEAPON, if you can really make a combination laser/particle beam that has almost no divergence
22:43 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> like you could have beam emplacements on a vacuum Moon like earth's
22:43 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> basically controlling any space within line of sight
22:43 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> ok speed of light delay
22:43 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> so out to several light seconds or more
22:44 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> maybe light minutes, I mean a gun emplacement on the Moon would be armored by rock
22:44 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> and could just keep firing and firing at even an evading spacecraft until it got lucky
22:45 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> and the victim spacecraft gets crossed by the beam and probably destroyed in 1 pass
22:45 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> ...ok the counter actually would be relativistic projectiles fired at the unable to evade emplacement
22:46 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> yeah as usual spacecraft are king, fixed emplacements would just die
22:47 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> not very cinematic, space battles are determined by equipment bays full of high energy beam generation equipment
22:47 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> and the enemy is so far away they can't even be seen with the naked eye
22:48 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> not even as a dot, even their drive plume is too dim
22:49 < fenn> the humongous accelerator you describe would cost a lot
23:13 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> fair but are there remaining future worlds where (1) humans build starships to visit nearby stars (2) we DON'T have self replicating robots
23:14 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> I'm reasonably certain out of all possible future worlds, few if none satisfy both (1) and (2)
23:14 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> (possible as in possible outcomes by our universe's physics)
23:15 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> so while you might be able to construct histories where humans just fail to develop tech #2 and they do #1 the hard way, it may not be a POSSIBLE outcome - it's just too obvious
23:15 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> any intelligent being who is capable of a starship project will want some way to get a lot of resources to afford such a thing, and this is the obvious way to do it
23:16 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> in previous era, say the 1960s sci fi, it was not known how easy or difficult AI would be, and so it might have seemed that #1 was straightforward and #2 could be centuries away if ever
23:17 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> anyways with self replicating robots, 'cost' has different dimensions than our current understanding
23:17 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> big huge simple things are cheap, very difficult and complex things may still be expensive
23:24 < fenn> we may not have the time to scale up #2, or the unanimous coordination needed to incubate something like that
23:25 < fenn> usually in engineering we try to consider cost when comparing different approaches
23:26 < fenn> a dyson sphere is "possible" but it's not "probable"
23:28 < fenn> swarm*
23:42 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> what? and what?
23:42 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> I do not think either of your arguments are valid or worth discussing
23:43 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> a self replicating robot requires no coordination between groups, it's easily possible once AI is a little more advanced from present
23:43 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> note it doesn't mean *a* self replicating robot, but a general enough AI that all the steps needed to build any standard model robot can be done by other robots driven by the general AI models
23:44 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> so 1 robot by itself can't self replicate, it might take 10,000 or more separate ones doing specialized tasks to complete all the steps needed to build 1 robot from ore
23:45 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> BUT each task is from a 'task descriptor' space, and a neural network has a solution to all robotics problems from that space (or at least in testing solves nearly all of them)
23:45 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> once you have self replicating robots, many kilometers long guns etc can just be built
23:45 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> nobody has to help you either
23:46 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> whoever has this technology doesn't need anyone else, and they don't need a dyson swarm either
23:46 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> arguably they don't really need money except to trade for technology they don't have yet
23:47 < hprmbridge> BrickOnKeyboard> they can do anything that n robots can do for them, and n robots is however many exponential doubling cycles are required away from the number they have now...
23:58 < fenn> my brain is rapidly turning into pumpkin pudding, but by "coordination" i was weakly gesturing at the realm of human conflict, war, politics, that sort of thing
23:58 < fenn> it's a vulnerable target, and also a weapon
--- Log closed Fri Jan 20 00:00:20 2023