--- Log opened Sat Jan 28 00:00:27 2023
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04:06 < maaku> infrared seems way too course to be able to verify anything
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05:48 < nsh> do infrared waves not interfere with one another?
05:49 < nsh> i guess even various modalities of sub-wavelength spatial resolution 
05:50 < nsh> but i think this idea of painstakingly attempting to rule out deviance by inspection is a fool's errand
05:50 < nsh> it's much better to reason in terms of computer science and cryptography about how to build trustworthy systems by the composition of potentially untrustworthy behaviours
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07:04 < Jay_Dugger> Hello, everyone.
07:13 < kanzure> greetings
07:13 < kanzure> nsh: he seems to want to solve hardware security, and doesn't want the "use verified software across unverified heterogeneous hardware" solution
07:26 < nsh> in what meaningful sense is it any closer to 'solved'?
07:27 < nsh> marginal increase in confidence by a methodology that greatly limits the range of people who can benefit
07:27 < nsh> a hobby, not a solution
07:27 < nsh> and i begrudge nobody their own :)
07:28 < hprmbridge> MatthewGoodman> Most of the weaknesses in current platforms come from the ecosystem. Sure your app/service can be secure, but it's kinda moot if you don't trust the android keyboard etc
07:29 < hprmbridge> MatthewGoodman> It is also easy to dismiss a lot of this when you live in a country with a much kinder set of human rights laws
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07:52 < kanzure> nsh: deterministic compilation across two different machines of different hardware origin should convince you that the hash is the same.
07:54 < kanzure> didn't know about this technique, "retrosynthetic accessibility scoring" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36641473/
07:54 < kanzure> "Recent advances in artificial intelligence for retrosynthesis" https://paperswithcode.com/paper/recent-advances-in-artificial-intelligence
07:59 < Jay_Dugger> Thank you for mentioning Reynolds's "House of Suns" on Twitter, kanzure.
08:00 < kanzure> yeah that's the first book that has held my attention in a long time
08:00 < Jay_Dugger> I had overlooked it for a shallow reason: poor-quality cover art.
08:01 < kanzure> maybe none would have been better
08:01 < Jay_Dugger> Keep thinking I'll re-read Lem in light of OpenAI et. al., but will have to schedule the time to do that. Otherwise it just stays in the good intentions barrel.
08:12 < lsneff> Have y'all read the revelation space series?
08:17 < L29Ah> no
08:21 < nsh> kanzure, indeed and with a little lateral thinking you can take a 'mess of pottage' of computational substrate and by judicious application of coding theory render something universal from it
08:21 < nsh> because the mathematics is on our side
08:22 < nsh> it is in fact asymptotically impossible for the statistics of behaviours to be optimally frustrating
08:22 < nsh> (in the sense of winning over all conceivable strategies of fault-tolerance)
08:35 < muurkha> deterministic computation across independent machines can convince you that the result hasn't been corrupted, but it can't help you to know if one or both those machines leaked your secret inputs to unwanted third parties
08:36 < muurkha> and moderate security for many people probably depends on having extreme security for a few people, if the many are vulnerable to the computations carried out by the few
08:45  * nsh nods
08:45 < nsh> we could also just do things right 
08:46 < kanzure> whole brain emulation will be interesting in absence of underlying hardware security
08:47 < nsh> (which is to say for types of processing over sensitive inputs to formally specify and implement with language theoretical security in isolation)
09:42 < muurkha> that doesn't help if you're running on backdoored hardware, nsh
09:47 < muurkha> also, none of this represents progress on denial of service; if five guys beat you until your internal organs are all bleeding, you might stop being able to compute anything pretty soon because your hardware will stop working
09:55 < muurkha> you can engineer things to be fail-stop, but sometimes it's also important to engineer them not to fail
10:05 < nsh> please place 'backdoored' on the chomsky hierarchy
13:24 < muurkha> yeah, exactly, you can't
13:59 < L29Ah> .t https://www.ladbible.com/community/bryan-johnson-reverse-ageing-project-blueprint-932389-20230126
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15:51 < Jay_Dugger> lsneff, House of Suns and Revelation Space have the same author.
15:51 < lsneff> Yep, alastair reynolds 
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--- Log closed Sun Jan 29 00:00:28 2023