--- Log opened Tue Feb 14 00:00:43 2023
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02:25 < stipa> https://www.eff.org/document/voice-tech-corp-v-mycroft-ai-complaint
02:25 < stipa> how is that even possible???
02:26 < stipa> “Using  Voice  Commands  from  a  Mobile  Device  to  Remotely  Access  and  Control  a  Computer,” is a patent, LOL
02:27 < stipa> what a bunch of idiots a law system is
02:28 < stipa> patent issuing one isn't much better either
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04:40 < kanzure> stipa: http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/against.htm
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04:48 < stipa> kanzure: is what that page claims is that govs make patents of their own ?
04:49 <+gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=a0d77465 Bryan Bishop: forgot a few IVF techniques >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/in-vitro-fertilization/
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05:00 < stipa> kanzure: i've got the .pdf, thanks
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08:37 < L29Ah> https://www.lifespan.io/news/lithium-is-linked-to-lower-mortality/ please no
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09:26 < muurkha> it would be amusingly perverse if we found an effective lifespan extension drug that was something like a drool-inducing dosage of Haldol
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09:39 < yashgaroth> can't be any worse than caloric restriction. If you want to see 2100, either you'll live as an emaciated skeleton or staring at a wall
09:39 < kanzure> don't forget the eunuchs
09:43 < L29Ah> yashgaroth: i have a natural caloric restriction system it seems
09:43 < muurkha> what's the summary on orchiectomy and life extension?
09:44 < L29Ah> muurkha: no placebo-controlled research, need more volunteers ;)
09:44 < muurkha> I think caloric restriction is pretty okay, isn't it?
09:44 < L29Ah> MtF live a lot less than either biologicals
09:44 < muurkha> L29Ah: are you saying the effect, if any, is small and subtle?
09:44 < L29Ah> effect of what?
09:44 < muurkha> orchi
09:45 < yashgaroth> L29Ah, if you're just naturally skinny that might work against you. Higher basal metabolism, with metabolism as the supposed mechanism that causes aging, and some fat is protective against all-cause mortality in seniors
09:45 < L29Ah> muurkha: the research is biased because one must be quite crazy to do it in the first place
09:46 < yashgaroth> I am excited to see all the life-extension biohackers cut off their balls and become wall-staring skeletons, instead of the 4 hours of gym per day and 200 supplements
09:46 < muurkha> what about testicular cancer and soprano castrati?
09:47 < docl> well you can't get cancer in what you don't have
09:47 < yashgaroth> the testosterone produced in the balls stimulates IGF-1 and other growth factors linked to cancer and whatnot
09:47 < kanzure> on a related note, functional ovary transplants are a thing
09:47 < L29Ah> > The Italian castrati were often rumored to have unusually long lives, but a 1993 study found that their lifespans were average.
09:47 < muurkha> I mean, orchiectomy is common as a therapy for testicular cancer, isn't it?
09:48 < kanzure> L29Ah: might be one of those things they say to help them sleep at night?
09:48  * L29Ah only has 0.5 hours of gym per day and 5 supplements :(
09:48 < yashgaroth> yes, but probably a greater positive lifespan effect when they're removed at a lower age. So that there's more time for the beneficial effects to accumulate
09:49 < kanzure> what was actually in brian johnson's 'blueprint'?
09:49 < muurkha> maybe you can even find people who have done it preventatively, if they find they have raging oncogenes.  A friend of mine did a preventative bilateral mastectomy for such reasons
09:49 < muurkha> blue ink?
09:50 < kanzure> Muaddib: Are the long life claims of the eunuchs considered apocryphal?
09:50 < Muaddib> kanzure: Not if they put their money where their mouth is.
09:50 < yashgaroth> prophylactic surgery to remove breasts is much more common than for testes, since mammary tissue doesn't provide hormones people may want. Though I guess if you take enough anabolic steroids it might not matter, and you don't even have to worry about them shrinking your balls
09:51 < yashgaroth> eunuchs probably less likely to die in violence, as was far more common back in ye olde days
09:51 < kanzure> hmm i don't feel particularly inclined to die in duels though
09:51 < yashgaroth> no BRCA equivalent in testicular cancer afaik, but I haven't checked
09:52 < muurkha> it would be very surprising if there were, but there might be other oncogenes
09:52 < yashgaroth> "Eunuch susceptibility to death by palace intrigue and assassins: a longitudinal study"
09:52 < muurkha> please tell me this study exists
09:52 < yashgaroth> only in my dreams, sadly
09:54 < muurkha> :(
09:54 < docl> get the chatbot to write it for you maybe
09:54 < yashgaroth> not that choir singing and/or administering the imperial Chinese bureaucracy were particularly dangerous jobs on their own
09:55 < yashgaroth> surely there've been some animal studies on orchiectomy lifespan though
09:56 < docl> reduction of risk of testicular cancer aside it sounds like magical thinking: sacrifice your sacred organs to the gods and be rewarded in exchange
09:57 < muurkha> well, I was thinking more that masculinity is generally hazardous to your health
09:57 < muurkha> every society I know of, even very peaceful ones or extremely male-dominated ones, has dramatically longer life expectancy at birth for women than for men
09:58 < muurkha> and the human birth sex ratio provides some evidence that this has been true for at least tens of millennia if not millions of years
09:58 < docl> is that controlling for risks/violence/accidents?
09:59 < muurkha> no; I don't know what the result is if you try to control for violence and accidents
10:00 < muurkha> but if chopping off your balls extends your life but only by making you less violent, it still might be worthwhile
10:00 < L29Ah> all them wars, crime and psychoactive substance abuse
10:00 < L29Ah> also labor heroism
10:01 < muurkha> in developed societies, though, non-war violence and accidents are not major causes of death
10:01 < muurkha> in certain age groups they are, but that's only because those age groups have astoundingly low total death rates
10:01 < L29Ah> also poor hygiene is associated with gender somehow
10:02 < docl> https://ourworldindata.org/why-do-women-live-longer-than-men
10:03 < docl> evolutionary reason might be that women had worse time of it from infection during childbirth in the before times, so their immune systems work a bit harder to compensate
10:04 < muurkha> well, very broadly, this is predicted by the Higher Male Variability Hypothesis
10:06 < yashgaroth> mortality's still higher in men, but we haven't had a major war in 70 years. Women used to die a lot in childbirth which might have balanced it out a little. I remember some insane stat based on genetic analysis that in pre-history, only ~1/20 males procreated
10:06 < yashgaroth> higher male variability is only still a hypothesis because people don't like its implications
10:07 < docl> there's also menopause in women. the uterus stops working, causing a post reproductive phase of the life cycle (the grandmother hypothesis, providing a child care advantage). maybe resources freed up in menopause are part of the mechanism of life extension
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10:07 < muurkha> Wilt Chamberlain claims to have had 20,000 sexual partners, supposedly all women; plausibly this means 200 biological children
10:07 < justanot1> paperbot, where are you https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/int.22955
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10:07 < muurkha> then a gene that gives you a 3% chance of being Wilt Chamberlain and a 97% chance of dying in childhood would give you 6 expected children
10:08 < muurkha> but only if your sex is male.  your uterus is not going to produce 200 biological children no matter how many sexual partners you have
10:09 < kanzure> docl: the ovaries stop before the uterus does; are you sure it's the uterus.
10:09 < yashgaroth> thus the benefit of sexual dimorphism to evolution
10:09 < kanzure> docl: ancient women have beared children in their normal aged uteruses
10:10 < kanzure> this is partly why i was looking at uterus vs ovary transplants recently
10:10 < kanzure> arteries on the uterus seem to be larger and more amenable to microsurgery
10:24 < L29Ah> 18:45:08]<yashgaroth> L29Ah, if you're just naturally skinny that might work against you. Higher basal metabolism, with metabolism as the supposed mechanism that causes aging, and some fat is protective against all-cause mortality in seniors
10:24 < L29Ah> i don't think not being able to insert much food due to increasing aversion to it (up to triggering the gag reflex) has anything to do with basal metabolic rate
10:26 < yashgaroth> ah in that case you're probably ok then
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11:14 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | https://diyhpl.us/wiki | not quite sponsored by george church | banned by the MIT media lab and the FDA
11:14 -!- Topic set by fenn [~fenn@user/fenn] [Fri Mar 25 06:29:19 2022]
11:14 [Users #hplusroadmap]
11:14 [@ChanServ ] [ Chiester    ] [ Gooberpatrol66 ] [ lsneff     ] [ s0ph1a      ] 
11:14 [ _flood   ] [ codaraxis___] [ heath1         ] [ maaku      ] [ SDr         ] 
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11:14 [ acertain ] [ dartmouthed ] [ hprmbridge     ] [ mrdata     ] [ soundand1ury] 
11:14 [ adlai    ] [ deltab      ] [ human_g33k     ] [ Muaddib    ] [ stipa       ] 
11:14 [ AMG      ] [ docl        ] [ Jenda          ] [ muurkha    ] [ strages     ] 
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11:14 [ catalase ] [ FelixWeis   ] [ L29Ah          ] [ potatope   ] [ yashgaroth  ] 
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11:14 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Wed May 19 06:51:36 2021
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11:46 < muurkha> for future reference, in English the past tense of the verb "bear" is "borne"
11:57 < kanzure> here is one claim that chatgpt is $16/hour https://twitter.com/NaveenGRao/status/1625165602557132800
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13:21 < fenn> great, now you have to click "show more" on every tweet
13:23 < L29Ah> nitter works as usual
13:25 < fenn> no, for long posts you still have to click a link
13:25 < L29Ah> long twitter posts? is this a thing?
13:25 < fenn> actually, nitter doesn't work at all for long posts
13:28 < muurkha> it doesn't?
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14:55 < kanzure> re: olfactory enhancement by nasal delivery of stem ells https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sniffer
16:41 < muurkha> Monica Anderson, using Fecebutt: [[[
16:41 < muurkha> We in the NLU / LMM community are, on one hand, surprised at how many people get mad at a demo. And how many try to make it say stupid stuff, like adults tricking 4-year-olds to say something really stupid on cam so they can post it on TikTok.
16:41 < muurkha> On the other hand, we don't have to care. We know what it's worth. It's the greatest invention since fire and I can back that up. In fact, I already did, here on my wall.
16:41 < muurkha> ChatGPT is the first system that convincingly demonstrates that they have solved THE FIRST ONE, EVER, of dozens of known AI-Complete problems. They solved Language Understanding, in the general case. This is close to AGI as it gets today, because it can learn ANY language. That's what the "G" in AGI means. It's a fully GENERAL language learner. It doesn't have to make coffee in order to be an AGI. 
16:41 < muurkha> That would make AGI a subfield of Robotics.
16:41 < muurkha> We can robustly predict that dozens of other problem types in vastly different problem domains will be solved in the short-to-medium future. And once AIs get good enough, they will be used to accelerate this spread of Holistic Methods to other domains. Including Robotics, so they'll be able to make coffee 😃 . I expect even Symbolic Math to switch to Holistic Methods, away from Mathematica etm.
16:41 < muurkha> For the record, I am now using AI in the present tense.
16:41 < muurkha> ]]]
16:42 < kanzure> "guide to using a virtual orchestra" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXgqiNtCfUg
16:42 < muurkha> she's an old AI researcher; I know her from Hackers
16:43 < kanzure> was she acid burn?
16:43 < kanzure> oh, i know this name.  syntience?
16:44 < kanzure> some sort of socialization with devrandom (where is devrandom anyway? he used to lurk here)
16:45 < muurkha> yup, Syntience
16:46 < L29Ah> Muaddib: what is chatgpt useful for?
16:46 < Muaddib> L29Ah: Making me laugh.
16:47 < muurkha> Muaddib: what is L29Ah useful for?
16:47 < Muaddib> muurkha: Making me smile.
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 15 00:00:44 2023