--- Log opened Tue Feb 21 00:00:50 2023
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04:45 < kanzure> jiankui he moving to hong kong i guess? https://www.scmp.com/news/article/3210873/controversial-chinese-biophysicist-he-jiankui-granted-hk-visa-despite-criminal-record
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05:03 < kanzure> http://marsh.speedrunwiki.com/Text/alltomorrows.pdf
05:37 < kanzure> "Developmental mechanisms underlying the evolution of human cortical circuits" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41583-023-00675-z (2023 review)
05:38 < kanzure> oh, locked. nevermind.
05:44 < kanzure> "Massive multiplexing of spatially resolved single neuron projections with axonal barseq" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.02.18.528865v1 (zador stuff)
05:46 < kanzure> zador's startup https://www.cajalneuro.com/science (not sure if they are doing mapseq/barseq?)
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06:33 < nsh> .t https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.130.053602
06:38 < muurkha> they banned saxo because of dpk's hate message for Twitter, now they don't have .t here
06:42 < L29Ah> shit mods
06:43 < jrayhawk> no regrets
06:43 < jrayhawk> i should fix that, though
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10:27 < kanzure> i wonder how amazon mechanical turk is doing these days https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Mechanical_Turk
10:33 < kanzure> "Among the critics of MTurk, ... Jaron Lanier has noted how the design of Mechanical Turk "allows you to think of the people as software components""
10:33 < kanzure> yandex version of mechanical turk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toloka
10:38 < kanzure> nsh: here is the reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-based_computation
10:38 < nsh> ty
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11:35 < wintermute44> Hi everybody, what kind of website about transhumanism do you recommend? I'm a lecturer and I want to recommend some url's for my students :) 
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16:08 < kanzure> "DNA synthesis technologies to close the gene writing gap" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41570-022-00456-9
16:08 < kanzure> .wik heterotrophic heart transplant
16:10 < kanzure> "... cardiac surgery called heterotopic heart transplantation, where Smith’s own heart remained in place while a second donor heart was implanted.  He now has two beating hearts."
16:10 < kanzure> "Generation of human endothelium in pig embryos deficient in ETV2" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41587-019-0373-y
16:11 < kanzure> "Blastocyst complementation and interspecies chimeras in gene edited pigs" https://europepmc.org/article/pmc/pmc9773398 (2022)
16:11 < kanzure> blastocyst complementation review article https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8578738/
16:12 < kanzure> "Generation of human organs in pigs via interspecies blastocyst complementation" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/rda.12796 (2016)
16:12 < kanzure> just closing out some tabs... don't mind me.
16:13 < kanzure> "On the lack of evidence for the evolution of psi" https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=b820b7fa283e7caeaeb5faa96eecafe0d80625e8 (michael levin)
16:14 < kanzure> .g entwicklungsmechanik
16:14 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo-devo_gene_toolkit
16:16 < kanzure> "Bioengineered three-dimensional transparent eggshell as a chicken embryo experimentation platform for biomedical research" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/eng2.12092
16:17 < kanzure> ex ovo chicken embryo culture system https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3185626/
16:51 < fenn> george church said in 2019, "moratoria very often backfire, that is to say by trying to suppress something you just get everybody excited about it. so this has happened in my life twice at least.
16:51 < fenn> "one was a recombinant DNA moratorium, which was the original moratorium in biotech, that got so much attention that suddenly a bunch of biotech companies started, I think almost as a direct result of that, including Genentech and Biogen, where I was one of the first Biogen employees and Amgen so forth
16:52 < fenn> they had to build these incredible facilities these state-of-the-art facilities to meet the safety requirements, and so I would work in these facilities whether or not I had a recombinant DNA to do because it was just amazing.
16:52 < fenn> then in the embryonic stem cells, for eight years during the Bush administration there was a ban on federal funding for embryonic stem cells, and the result was that Massachusetts and California just cranked up their own local encouragement of those to the tune of three billion dollars that wouldn't have happened if there weren't a federal ban"
16:57 < fenn> "germline editing is expensive takes a long time to debug. there are lots of good alternatives. banning germline is kind of like banning jetpacks: it isn't gonna happen anyway for a variety of reasons, so why are we wasting so many brilliant people's time discussing it"
16:59 < kanzure> what are these so-called good alternatives
17:01 < fenn> well he said gene therapy could be inexpensive, in principle
17:02 < kanzure> wasn't aware cost was the issue with gene therapy, i thought it was that you can't infect all the relevant cells and even if you do the body is already developed
17:06 < fenn> this interview was shortly after the jiankui he thing, so maybe he just didn't want to be seen as super gung-ho
17:07 < kanzure> apparently the first donation was recently made for the lulu and nana foundation, in the amount of $5,000 USD
17:07 < kanzure> https://twitter.com/Jiankui_He/status/1626406195853656064
17:08 < jrayhawk> [6~[6~[6~[6~[6~
17:08 < kanzure> deep down people must know these children are fine because that's not a lot of donation https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1628066014796677123
17:08 < kanzure> jrayhawk: CAUGHT YOU
17:08 < fenn> ah dammit now twitter is having OCSP issues
17:10 < L29Ah> nitter just works
17:10 < fenn> nitter says "Tweet not found"
17:11 < L29Ah> both links work at https://nitter.lacontrevoie.fr
17:11 < fenn> ok now it works, i guess i am too impatient
17:13 < fenn> this is the first i'm hearing about a third genetically modified child, "Amy"
17:13 < kanzure> it was announced a few months after the twins
17:14 < kanzure> or.. er. i remember it was quickly announced.
17:15 < kanzure> "He Jiankui also said at the Hong Kong meeting that a second mother in his clinical experiment was in the early stages of pregnancy.[8]"
17:18 < fenn> did they ever do a full genome sequence on lulu and nana? it seems like the main concern shold be off-target mutations, but i have no idea whether that has even been looked at
17:18 < kanzure> there was some knowledge of the mosaicism either before birth or after
17:21 < fenn> mosaicism is a completely different issue
17:21 < fenn> george chuch says, "There's no evidence of off-target causing problems in animals or cells. We have pigs that have dozens of CRISPR mutations and a mouse strain that has 40 CRISPR sites going off constantly and there are off-target effects in these animals, but we have no evidence of negative consequences."
17:22 < fenn> that's surprising
17:23 < L29Ah> not really as you have things like nevi and senescent cells that don't readily break organisms down
17:25 < kanzure> yes for off-target he looked at some animal embryos before human, IIRC. some previous conference presentation he did, or manuscript. i forget if it was published.
17:26 < fenn> L29Ah: but those are somatic mutations, not germline
17:27 < fenn> L29Ah: you'd expect a germline mutation to be more likely to have severe consequences, because there aren't billions of other cells that function correctly and provide the missing growth factor or whatever
17:27 < fenn> trillions*
17:29 < L29Ah> ah indeed
17:29 < fenn> “CRISPR was injected when the embryo was only a single cell, but it stays in the cell for hours and even days while the embryo starts to divide within hours. So CRISPR could potentially go into all of these cells and do different edits in all of them, creating a patchwork of genetic edits,”
17:30 < fenn> so i guess you could also have a large number of chimeric/somatic off target mutations
17:32 < kanzure> fenn: this is why we were thinking about embryonic stem cell transfer as inner cell mass
17:32 < kanzure> you would expand the ESC culture, do your genetic modifications, do a bunch of sequencing, and then insert into a hollowed out embryo
17:32 < fenn> woah the word chimera is used in a huge number of ways in molecular genetics
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17:34 < kanzure> dreda25: welcome. today's logs: https://gnusha.org/logs/2023-02-21.log 
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17:35 < L29Ah> bye
17:41 < fenn> wow this new scientist article ends with "A more drastic approach would be sterilisation, preventing the three children from passing on their genes."
17:42 < fenn> like holy shit, at least verify that there's a problem first
17:42 < fenn> they weren't bitten by radioactive space wombats
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17:45 < kanzure> https://www.google.com/search?q=%22he+jiankui%22+%22death+penalty%22
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20:44 < lsneff> for those who think that AIs will foom and destroy humanity, the obvious solution is destroy semiconductor infrastructure and kill AI researchers, no?
20:50 < docl> isn't that an appeal to consequences? if used in place of argument that no it will not foom. backfire risk is probably too high anyway. AI researchers go into hiding and work on it with even less consideration to safety, probably on behalf of the military
21:28 < muurkha> that is a course of action SIAI discussed at one point; this was one of the contributing stressful factors Jessica cited in her account of her mental breakdown
21:29 < fenn> the unabomber was not very effective at achieving his stated goals. still, it's rather surprising that there hasn't been an outlier anti-ai-research terrorist incident yet
21:30 < fenn> there are lots more uncoordinated and unprincipled people who have reasons to be against AI, or at least think they do
21:32 < fenn> artists for example. how many millions of emotionally unstable artists are there? i'd guess quite a lot. recently, they've been bombarded with anti-AI propaganda and their careers and self-identity implicitly threatened
21:33 < muurkha> it's pretty unusual for artists to try to kill people.  Valerie Solanas and Phil Spector are the only two cases that come to mind immediately.
21:34 < muurkha> Oh, and I guess Charlie Manson, but he was into armed robbery before he wrote songs, didn't he?
21:35 < fenn> i didnt say "famous artists"
21:36 < muurkha> yeah, but I can't even think of any non-famous cases.  Neither Valerie Solanas nor Charlie Manson were famous before their crimes
21:37 < fenn> also, i'd be surprised if US govt had its shit together enough to already be protecting important AI researchers as a matter of course
21:45 < fenn> the other problem is that the development of AI is pretty much inevitable; it's only the massive improvement in semiconductors that have enabled the current capabilities in AI. there hasn't been an einstein or a newton that figured it all out from first principles (yet)
21:46 < fenn> bombing semiconductor plants won't have any long term effect, it may push back the rate of progress by a couple years if you're really effective at bombing campaigns, but there's enormous economic incentives to keep creating chip fabs and developing new semiconductor technology
21:47 < muurkha> we'll find out later this decade
21:47 < fenn> but those years won't gain you more man*years of thinking on how to align AI, because the heightened (negative) attention on the field of anti-AI activism in general will cause more noise than signal
21:48 < muurkha> it wouldn't have the desired long-term effect, but it would surely result in a divergent path of development
21:49 < fenn> it's not like you can just walk into a chip fab and toss a bomb into the wafer line
21:49 < fenn> and do that repeatedly
21:50 < lsneff> there are probably much more effective ways to stunt semiconductor progress than to blow up a fab to be fair
21:50 < lsneff> there is one major company that builds the photolithography machines and maybe one competitor that's on the path to that
21:50 < fenn> introduce semiconductor gender studies into the curriculum
21:51  * fenn grumbles
21:51 < lsneff> lmao
21:51 < fenn> haha only serious
21:54 < lsneff> i wonder what the bus factor of asml is
21:54 < fenn> if you read actual manuals on spycraft and industrial sabotage, the recommendations are things like, "sit on a committee, and request all proposals to go through your committee, then make reasonable-sounding but unachievable demands"
21:55 < fenn> it reads like a description of modern bureaucracy
21:57 < lsneff> my university operates much like that
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 22 00:00:51 2023