--- Log opened Mon Feb 27 00:00:56 2023
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06:42 < stipa> any thoughts about his one? https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/27/sunlight-reflection-solar-geoengineering-must-be-studied-scientists.html
06:43 < stipa> isn't the science responsible for where we are now in the first place?
06:45 < kanzure> even if it was responsible, i don't think that type of blame is epistemologically accurate or powerful enough to actually avoid bad outcomes, so it wouldn't have any effect on whether or not scientific investigation is something you should continue to do
06:46 < kanzure> anyway, yes, geoengineering the atmosphere is a good idea, and launching space objects to block a small percent of sunlight is an easy way of doing that
06:47 < stipa> what would be the long term effect on earth
06:47 < kanzure> who cares? we should ensure the survival of biodiversity and humans alike even if the earth is melted
06:47 < stipa> i think it's the same without the sun melting it
06:47 < stipa> no sun is bad too
06:47 < kanzure> what is the same?
06:48 < stipa> sun is the sole energy that powers the life on earth
06:48 < stipa> without it the earth is just a rock
06:49 < stipa> dust around the planet could turn the earth into jupiter is not a surprise
06:53 < stipa> what's the use of dust around the planet if it has a form as on jupiter
06:53 < stipa> practically none
06:53 < stipa> the poles of earth would probably put it in the same spot as jupiter did
06:54 < stipa> and what would that dust do the earth is questionable and unknown
06:54 < stipa> like all the scientific unknowns that led us here
07:05 < stipa> it could even amplify the sun radiation
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07:53 < jrayhawk> https://www.palladiummag.com/2020/04/01/the-bison-sphere-manifesto/
07:55 < kanzure> that's a lot of delicious meat
07:56 < jrayhawk> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP7K9SycELA meat planet
07:56 < kanzure> not sure the framing is quite right ("simulating vast arrays of minimally conscious beings watching Netflix" is not the promise of dyson swarms)
07:56 < kanzure> i mean, you *could* do that with dyson swarms
07:56 < kanzure> but probably you would have trouble moderating all the activity that people choose to do, much less counting all the different activities
08:00 < kanzure> i guess he needs to diss on silicon life in order to point out that his reader's imaginations have failed to account for the possibility of a quadrillion bison in an ~infinite wild west o'neill colony
08:02 < muurkha> the earth is too close to the sun to become a gas giant
08:04 < jrayhawk> manifestos gotta clear ideological space for all that totalizing and universalizing
08:06 < jrayhawk> 'After his death in 1994, the governor of the state of Oregon declared February 28 th as "Linus Pauling Day"'
08:06 < jrayhawk> am i supposed to take way too much ascorbic acid and die of cancer tomorrow
08:06 < kanzure> that's impressive, what else did the governor do after death
08:06 < jrayhawk> haha
08:16  * L29Ah bought a kilogram of ascorbic acid
08:16 < L29Ah> time to celebrate
08:16 < jrayhawk> party hard
08:22 < stipa> muurkha: what about a gas dwarf?
08:31 < L29Ah> stipa: the gas is being stripped by the solar wind
08:41 < jrayhawk> even mars was too close
08:42 < stipa> L29Ah: is there a planet with dust around it ?
08:42 < muurkha> Saturn, famously
08:43 < stipa> also a ring
08:43 < muurkha> Jupiter, Uranus, and Neptune also have ring systems
08:43 < muurkha> just not as spectacular as Saturn's
08:43 < stipa> and how would that ring block the sun fro mdestroying the earth?
08:48 < kanzure> https://www.ycombinator.com/launches/Hjn-radical-wireless-connectivity-from-the-stratosphere
08:50 < stipa> oh wow
08:50 < stipa> like thousands of satellites orbiting earth isn't enough
08:51 < stipa> + some dust soon
08:55 < kanzure> stipa: you might find this channel unsetttling because we tend to talk about science and technology projects. i'm curious what brings you here?
08:56 < stipa> kanzure: you should level up a bit
08:56 < stipa> there's practically zero science in here
08:57 < stipa> science is in best case endeavour with realistic results
08:59 < stipa> if you support dumping dust and rocks around the planet that'll form a ring that should block the sun radiation is far from realistic results
08:59 < stipa> of stopping global warming
09:03 < muurkha> you don't seem to be citing quantitative estimates of the magnitude of the relevant forcing, and it doesn't seem like your summary of the proposal is accurat
09:04 < muurkha> *accurate
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09:08 < stipa> muurkha: find another planet to do experiments on and make your summary using data gathered
09:09 < stipa> then we'll talk
09:15 < muurkha> you seem to be trying to make an argument about the definition of the word "science", defining it in such a way as to exclude, for example, archaeology, and paleontology, and evolutionary biology; but I wasn't saying anything about "science", I was just saying you don't seem to know what you're talking about
09:16 < stipa> of course i don't know when i don't know the outcome, it seems like you do, what is it?
09:17 < stipa> oh, right, you're one of those dudes that know everything
09:19 < stipa> i asked for opinions and i got what, nothing
09:19 < stipa> verbal abuse at most
09:20 < stipa> that's not science, that's moronism
09:21 < muurkha> well, what do you expect when you talk with someone named "muurkha"?
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09:24 < stipa> muurkha: i expect a burst of intellectual enlightenment
09:25 < muurkha> well, the nice thing about being a muurkha is that I experience those very frequently, because the bar is so low!
09:26 < muurkha> anyway geoengineering papers do routinely include quantitative, well-substantiated estimates of the radiative or other forcing that they expect to achieve
09:26 < muurkha> different proposals have different magnitudes
09:27 < stipa> still no facts
09:27 < muurkha> none of them that I've seen involve putting rocks into orbit
09:29 < stipa> muurkha: https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielcohen/2021/01/11/bill-gates-backed-climate-solution-gains-traction-but-concerns-linger/
09:33 < muurkha> that concerns https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1029/2020JD033438
09:35 < muurkha> "We apply the model to predict the aerosol distribution that would be generated by a propeller wake in the Stratospheric Controlled Perturbation Experiment (SCoPEx). We find that injecting 0.1 g s−1 calcite aerosol produces a nearly monodisperse plume and that at the same injection rate, condensable sulfate aerosol forms particles with average radii of 0.1 μm at 3 km downstream."
09:36 < muurkha> this is what you're summarizing as "dumping dust and rocks around the planet that'll form a ring"?
09:36 < stipa> that stinks so badly on chemtrails
09:37 < stipa> muurkha: this is the article https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-theorize-that-launching-moon-dust-to-space-could-cool-earth-180981618/
09:37 < muurkha> paper https://journals.plos.org/climate/article?id=10.1371/journal.pclm.0000133#sec014
09:38 < muurkha> relevant part of the abstract: "We revisit dust placed near the Earth–Sun L1 Lagrange point as a possible climate-change mitigation measure. Our calculations include variations in grain properties and orbit solutions with lunar and planetary perturbations. To achieve sunlight attenuation of 1.8%, equivalent to about 6 days per year of an obscured Sun, the mass of dust in the scenarios we consider 
09:38 < muurkha> must exceed 1010 kg. The more promising approaches include using high-porosity, fluffy grains to increase the extinction efficiency per unit mass, and launching this material in directed jets from a platform orbiting at L1."
09:39 < muurkha> sorry, that should be 10¹⁰ kg and L₁
09:39 < muurkha> the introduction says, "The target attenuation of sunlight, based on modeling, is approximately 1–2% [5, 6]."
09:40 < muurkha> which are
09:40 < muurkha> Govindasamy B, Caldeira K. Geoengineering Earth’s radiation balance to mitigate CO2-induced climate change. Geophysical Research Letters. 2000;27(14):2141–2144.
09:40 < muurkha>  Kravitz B, Caldeira K, Boucher O, Robock A, Rasch PJ, Alterskjær K, et al. Climate model response from the Geoengineering Model Intercomparison Project (GeoMIP). Journal of Geophysical Research (Atmospheres). 2013;118(15):8320–8332.
09:41 < muurkha> the second article is open access: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jgrd.50646
09:41 < superkuh> Lets not. Instead lets massively, industrially, produce super pressure reflecting mylar balloons with remote kill switches to reflect away the light.
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09:42 < superkuh> Releasing gas into the atmosphere or dust into space is not something you can take back.
09:42 < muurkha> superkuh: yeah, I think that's a better option
09:42 < muurkha> stratospheric aerosols do eventually settle, but orbiting dust might not
09:43 < muurkha> but my point is that neither of these proposals involves *either* forming a ring *or* dumping rocks, and there's a well-substantiated analysis showing that it would block the right amount of solar radiation and get realistic results
09:44 < muurkha> the second one anyway.  the first one, ScOpEx, probably does but the first paper I found on it is only focused on the aerosol formation part of the problem
09:45 < stipa> all we need is acid rain
09:45 < muurkha> admittedly it did take me respectively six and four minutes to find that out
09:45 < stipa> and moon dust all over the place
09:46 < muurkha> which I guess is more effort than stipa thought it was worth
09:48 < stipa> idk, maybe it would be smart to stop combustion machines for a week and see the effect, i remember the CO2 was reduced drastically during the first months of pandemic
09:49 < stipa> https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/emission-reductions-from-pandemic-had-unexpected-effects-on-atmosphere
09:50 < stipa> much cheaper than chemicals in atmosphere and rocks around the planet
09:52 < muurkha> if you did the calculations you would see that you were wrong, but you couldn't be bothered to take four minutes to check the citation you gave me, so you won't
09:54 < stipa> what calculations?
09:55 < stipa> how much moon dust is needed to save the world maybe?
09:56 < stipa> it's clear as day that pollution has to stop and not to spray chemicals in atmosphere and dust around the planet and where not while still going on with the lifestyle we have now and more
09:58 < stipa> the same morons that are proposing dumb solutions are the biggest pollutants 
09:59 < muurkha> instead of congratulating yourself on how much smarter you are than they are, maybe you should try to learn the things they know that you don't
10:00 < muurkha> it's much more rewarding, really
10:01 < stipa> i'm already there
10:01 < stipa> and beyond
10:02 < muurkha> if you're already there, then why did you describe a proposal to create stratospheric aerosols as "dumping dust and rocks around the planet that'll form a ring"?
10:02 < stipa> muurkha: thank you for the intellectual enlightenment , i owe you
10:02 < muurkha> pay me back by leaving and never coming back, please
10:02 < stipa> be my guest and leave
10:03 < stipa> i confused the articles, i was originally referring to moon dust project
10:04 < muurkha> the moon dust project does involve dumping dust, but not rocks, not around the planet, and not to form a ring
10:04 < muurkha> as the abstract of the article explains
10:04 < muurkha> as you would have known if you had taken the six minutes I took to look at it
10:05 < stipa> muurkha: where would the dust go then?
10:05 < muurkha> L₁
10:06 < muurkha> as the part of the abstract I pasted above explains
10:06 < stipa> L1 , right
10:06 < stipa> i missed that
10:07 < muurkha> my complaint is not that you're ignorant; we're all pretty ignorant, and I used to be even more ignorant than you are.  my complaint is that you're aggressive and arrogant about it
10:08 < stipa> muurkha: thank you for the compliment 
10:36 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://rrc.uic.edu/events/cryofib-sem-across-the-disciplines/
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> free cryo FIB/SEM workshop with lab tours
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13:24 < fenn> i'm shocked that anyone is considering intentionally spreading dust in space at special points like L1
13:25 < fenn> this is even dumber than project west ford
13:25 < fenn> but with the benefit of hindsight
13:28 < fenn> i guess they were like, "look at this cool mathematical model we already have for predicting light extinction coefficient from a known dust particle distribution"
13:34 < stipa> oh wow, project west for is really something
13:38 < fenn> at least those guys had the excuse that they didn't know any better
13:40 < stipa> there was a need for a solution and that was probably the best one, yeah
13:41 < fenn> it's really nowhere near the best solution
13:41 < docl> earth-sun L1 is not the same as earth-moon L1, in case anyone had those confused
13:42 < stipa> what are the odds of dust being attracted by the earth from that point, none?
13:42 < docl> earth-sun l1 is where you'd put a solar shade. currently there's an observatory probe there, DSCOVR (aka goresat)
13:43 < docl> yeah, it's too far from earth for that to happen
13:43 < fenn> it's possible for some of the dust to fall back to earth eventually
13:44 < fenn> they're proposing launching quite a lot of dust
13:45 < stipa> hmmmm
13:45 < fenn> the bigger problem is that it prevents any other use of L1 for a long time, until someone puts a lot of effort into cleaning it up
13:45 < stipa> what about solar storms, could they push the dust towards the earth?
13:45 < fenn> i'm not sure
13:45 < fenn> i don't think so
13:46 < docl> 10^10 kg -> 10 million tons? yeah that's a big project
13:49 < stipa> if the earth orbits the sun the dust should theoretically be around the sun at L1 point
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13:50 < docl> there's solar light pressure, so I'm not sure how long such a cloud lasts. might be too short. mostly would probably spread out too much to reach earth, although yeah it does get kicked in our general direction
13:50 < docl> (I haven't read the article though, presumably they thought of this?)
13:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fenn did you ever publish your audio recording equipment plans? Taek42 is interested.
13:52 < fenn> no i never developed any hardware
13:52 < fenn> the wristwatch thing or the source localization microphone array?
13:52 < hprmbridge> kanzure> i remember you looked around for long battery life audio recording stuff
13:52 < stipa> docl: if a solar storm is a heat wave the dust could ride on it i guess
13:52 < docl> oh, the smithsonian article says 10 billion kg annually. so they are talking about replacing it over time. makes sense, as the high surface area of dust means it won't stick around for very long
13:54 < fenn> kanzure: well i don't remember what i found, and it's probably obsolete by now anyway
13:54 < fenn> kanzure: maaku was going to use a pebble watch dev kit
13:54 < docl> regular sunlight is enough to constantly accelerate the dust, even without a solar storm
13:55 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ok. idea is real-time speech to text and wire it up to an LLM GPU jetpack (or remote) for real-time assistance, summarization, other interactive services.
13:55 < hprmbridge> kanzure> oh it was maaku?
14:00 < kanzure> self-navigating missile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon 
14:00 < kanzure> "The intent was to train pigeons to act as "pilots" for the device, using their cognitive abilities to recognize the target. The guidance system consisted of three lenses mounted in the nose of the vehicle, which projected an image of the target on a screen mounted in a small compartment inside the nose cone."
14:01 < kanzure> "Project Pigeon (later Project Orcon, for "organic control") was American behaviorist B. F. Skinner's attempt to develop a pigeon-controlled guided bomb"
14:01 < kanzure> "One to three pigeons, trained by operant conditioning to recognize the target, were stationed in front of the screen; when they saw the target, they would peck at the screen with their beaks."
14:02 < kanzure> https://web.archive.org/web/20130926023447/http://www.bfskinner.org/bfskinner/Project_Orcon.html
14:07 < fenn> we both had a desire for conversation audio recording, and i also wanted to record wrist accelerometer data at a relatively high sample rate
14:42 < fenn> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do_WyMawgFM&t=15m would you like to play a game?
16:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> flappy wing robot https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35356-5
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18:31 < taek42> fenn: Looking to make an armband sort of device that records all conversations around me and sends it back to an AI at home, then parses out key information like birthdays, meetings, potential misinformation, etc
18:32 < taek42> obviously can't use a cloud AI for that, privacy concerns too great
18:42 < fenn> whisper.cpp is where i'd start
18:42 < fenn> there are tons of wristband audio recorder devices available now
18:43 < fenn> https://github.com/ggerganov/whisper.cpp
18:46 < fenn> storing raw audio data should be easy nowadays, so you don't *need* to do speech recognition on the device, but neither do you want to be running a space heater 24/7 at home
18:47 < fenn> a bad transcription doesn't matter so much if you have the raw data because you can fix it later when computers get better
18:47 < fenn> personally, i don't trust phone software very much
18:48 < fenn> not apple and definitely not android
18:52 < taek42> this would be a small board computer like a raspi
18:56 < fenn> probably also want a faster speech detection algorithm to chop out the obviously non-speech parts of the recording
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21:06 < jrayhawk> https://sashachapin.substack.com/p/i-cured-my-aphantasia-with-a-low
22:12 < fenn> i guess it's just as surprising for people who can't visualize images to learn that some people don't have inner monologues as vice versa
22:22 < fenn> and maybe there are people who have no images or words inside at all, it's just blank nothingness, and yet they live
22:23 < fenn> but not in a p-zombie sense, if you asked them maybe they'd figure out that they have nothing inside and tell you as much
--- Log closed Tue Feb 28 00:00:56 2023