--- Log opened Tue Mar 07 00:00:03 2023
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04:38 < kanzure> "This is quite an ironic outcome. I mean, so instead of rejuvenating the calls to say we should be much more careful, it was as if the whole scientific community heaved a kind of sigh of relief and said, well, look, of course there are limits. This guy [Jiankui He] has transgressed the limits. He's clearly outside the limits. And therefore, everything else is now open for grabs. And therefore, ...
04:38 < kanzure> ...the problem before us now is to make sure that we lay out the guidelines and the rules."
04:38 < kanzure> from https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1158705095
04:51 < kanzure> stopdesignerbabies.org protesting the bioethics conference https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1632821918788198401
05:16 < kanzure> a discord wiki system thing https://disc.wiki/   seems more useful for other discord servers, but maybe the concept is applicable to diyhpl.us/wiki
05:18 < kanzure> "add message to the wiki: tag @disc.wiki or Right-click a pre-exising message > "Apps" > "Add to wiki""
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05:19 < kanzure> from this discussion about how discord isn't good for hobby communities since the information can't be publicly searched at the moment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35050858
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05:46 < kanzure> 2023 human genome editing summit day 2 https://vimeo.com/event/2889927/1136b05a13
05:48 < yashgaroth> also first day recording https://vimeo.com/event/2889894/d022f2a0bd
05:51 < kanzure> from the finalspark neural culture computer person: "I think one of the central issue is to be able to reliably change the synaptic weights of randomly connected neurons with randomly placed electrodes of a continuously changing biological network." https://twitter.com/DrFredJordan/status/1633102406870245380
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11:13 < muurkha> I think the main issue with Discord (and Slack, and IRC) is not that there's no search
11:14 < muurkha> it's that a chat log is not a good replacement for a well-thought-out expository text
11:15 < kanzure> well we're not expecting hemmingway
11:16 < muurkha> a Hemingway story is also not a good replacement for a well-thought-out expository text
11:16 < muurkha> can you imagine Hemingway trying to explain git submodules?
11:17 < kanzure> "Git repo. A place where code lives. It's like a fishing spot, where you can cast your line and reel in your changes. You can see what's been caught before, and you can add your own catch to the pile. But be careful, if you don't know what you're doing, you might end up with a tangle of lines and no fish to show for it. Git is a tool for fishermen, but instead of fish, we're catching code. So, ...
11:17 < kanzure> ...grab your rod and get to coding, my friend."
11:17 < muurkha> See?  Entertaining, but useless.
11:17 < kanzure> that's what chatgpt imagines hemmingway explaining git
11:18 < muurkha> Wikis support restructuring, summarizing, correcting details, adding details that should have been included, removing irrelevant details, etc.
11:18 < muurkha> Chat logs support none of that, except immediately at that moment, if the right wizard happens to be participating.
11:18 < kanzure> muurkha: i'd like to get log summaries of hplusroadmap added to the wiki, there's a lot of good content in here that doesn't get into the wiki :(
11:18 < kanzure> or even better would be correctly filing the different things into the right pages on the wiki
11:19 < muurkha> I think I could probably do a good job of that
11:19 < kanzure> https://gnusha.org/logs/ it's about 10 or 16 million words, seems like a tool would be needed
11:20 < muurkha> Yeah, I don't think I could backfill the previous logs very quickly
11:20 < kanzure> with the openai.com API latest pricing i think for summarization i estimated <$300 for running all the logs through?
11:20 < muurkha> Maybe ChatGPT or LLaMa could
11:21 < muurkha> yeah, plausible.  I thought you actually came up with a lower number
11:21 < kanzure> i try to bias my memory loss in strictly conservative directions
11:22 < muurkha> heh\
11:39 < L29Ah> so should #hplusroadmap experience be reformatted as a wiki?
11:39 < L29Ah> with each message sent to channel getting inserted to some wiki page
11:40 < kanzure> there's no replacement for the mental labor (although it could be human or AI) of organizing the information into thoughtfully-currated well-formatted lists and tables
11:41 < kanzure> we need an intern
11:43 < muurkha> can I be your intern?
11:45 < L29Ah> i wonder if GPT can be smashed into obedience, like asking first what page of the list of pages is more suitable for the message, and then to edit the text of the page to include the information given in the message
11:47 < fenn> one of google wave's more interesting features was transcluding chat logs into a wiki page or etherpad, then editing the wiki page and finally publishing it to the world, with every word back-traceable to the originator
11:48 < fenn> the world was not ready for that kind of radical accountability apparently
11:48 < muurkha> we did that with purplewiki a few years before wave
11:49 < muurkha> well, not quite.  you couldn't edit a transclusion and maintain back-traceability.  You had to choose one or the other
11:49 < fenn> ok maybe it wasn't strictly a transclusion, since chat logs are write-once
11:51 < muurkha> Oh, I mean, if you edited the chat log, which wasn't a thing you would normally do, that would be reflected in the PurpleWiki view
11:51 < kanzure> L29Ah: that's a good point- ChatGPT might not be able to do hplusroadmap log summarization because of the filters
11:52 < fenn> personally i find it hard to remain engaged with a wiki. it's just a thing that sits there, and i have to put all the effort into making it do something (by clicking links for example)
11:52 < muurkha> but if you wanted to edit the transcluded text in the purplewiki page that was transcluding it, you would have to copy the text into the wiki page first, so it wouldn't be transcluded any more
11:53 < fenn> maybe chatgpt could be trained to update a wiki based on chats in realtime, and you can approve/deny its changes
11:53 < muurkha> interesting idea
11:55 < fenn> dumping the entire wiki into the prompt would be expensive and overload its token limit. not sure how to point it at the relevant page automatically
11:55 < fenn> i guess you could have it interactively navigate a directory hierarchy / table of contents
11:56 < fenn> every half hour, summarize the recent chat, decide if it is relevant material, then navigate to the appropriate page, and re-word the page to include the new material if it isn't already there
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11:57 < kanzure> yeah it could just post pull requests, or alternate pull requests, and then close out the alternates if one of them was good
11:57 < kanzure> or we can tell it to try again in the same pull request and it will do some other commit
12:00 < kanzure> i wonder how much deletionism rhetoric it has from wikipedia flamewars
12:02 < lsneff> or in many cases, actual religious morality
12:02 < lsneff> .wiki neurosphere
12:02 < lsneff> Did saxo die
12:02 < lsneff> I’ve talked to multiple people from vast. It seems feasible
12:02 < lsneff> Jed also seems like the kind of person who would fund a nanotech play
12:02 < lsneff> Carl Feynman?
12:03 < kanzure> carl feynman is the current instantiated feynman
12:06 < muurkha> lsneff: saxo got kicked out because someone found its .tw editorializing annoying
12:17 < lsneff> gotcha
12:17 < muurkha> it's still in #swhack
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13:14 < fenn> china's new human germline ethics rules "don’t apply to companies, foundations, and other private entities"
13:18 < superkuh> Some persons are more equal than others.
13:20 < kanzure> what are the new rules?
13:21 < fenn> good luck finding a chinese legal document, but this seems related https://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202303/01/WS63fea73ea31057c47ebb16c4.html
13:35 < fenn> i think i found it: http://www.nhc.gov.cn/qjjys/s7946/202302/c3374c180dc5489d85f95df5b46afaf5.shtml
13:36 < fenn> "Notice on Issuing the Measures for Ethical Review of Life Sciences and Medical Research Involving Humans"
13:40 < fenn> "Medical institutions at or above the second level and health institutions above the districted city level institutions of higher learning, scientific research institutes and other institutions that carry out human life science and medical research ... an ethical review committee should be established to carry out ethical review of life science and medical research involving human beings, and
13:40 < fenn> conduct regular inspections of scientific researchers, students, scientific research managers and other relevant personnel"
13:42 < kanzure> informed consent would be a lot more powerful if people actually believed that it was possible to obtain ""truly" informed" informed consent
13:43 < kanzure> or rather, if non-participants (like third party observers or reviewers) didn't get to move the goalposts after the consent was reached
13:44 < fenn> '"truly" informed" informed consent would be too expensive and slow; you'd have to train every research participant to PhD level and by then it's probably too late
13:46 < L29Ah> oh so that's why the academia trains so many phds
13:47 < fenn> no
13:47 < L29Ah> there are those who publish research and those who perish after consenting to get researched on
13:47 < fenn> what i'm describing is far more radical than anything that has ever existed
13:47 < fenn> very few scientists actually do self experimentation, although there are some famous historical examples
13:48 < kanzure> even if you put them through a rigorous PhD program the non-participants will just move the goalpost again, like zeno's paradox
13:48 < fenn> yes, we're all obviously brainwashed by the patriarchy and aren't '"truly" informed'
13:48 < kanzure> “Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!”
13:49 < kanzure> "That which is in locomotion must arrive at the half-way stage before it arrives at the goal."
13:49 < kanzure> ("and therefore can never arrive")
13:50 < kanzure> hanley and church published a review of self-experimentation a while back https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/rej.2018.2059
13:52 < kanzure> the first mention of consent in this article is tied to the hippocratic oath (was this mandated by the american medical association at the time for licensed physicians?) and the nurembourg trials in response to nazi experiments
13:53 < kanzure> this rules out literally all of life (you are going to die at some point- was it because of the confounding effects of the experiment? only the great de-confounder in the sky will ever know) "No experiment should be conducted where there is an a priori reason to believe that death or disabling injury will occur"
13:57 < kanzure> what? "In the 1960s, the Hippocratic Oath was changed to require[....]"
13:58 < kanzure> apparently paywalls are literally a violation of the hippocratic oath lol
13:58 < fenn> how?
14:00 < kanzure> "To hold my teacher in this art equal to my own parents; to make him partner in my livelihood; when he is in need of money to share mine with him; to consider his family as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they want to learn it, without fee or indenture; to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured ...
14:00 < kanzure> ...pupils who have taken the Healer’s oath, but to nobody else."
14:00 < kanzure> and in the 1964 version:
14:00 < kanzure> "I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow."
14:02 < kanzure> apparently somewhat of a "healer caste" going on in the original where the sons of your mentor must be taught without fee or indenture
14:05 < fenn> it's like signing an EULA before you get the goods
14:05 < fenn> they didn't want people learning magical knowledge without swearing the oath first
14:16 < fenn> the first revision to the declaration of helsinki doubled its length. there are now seven revisions...
14:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> this harm minimization oath needs a benefit maximalist counterpart
14:18 < fenn> (Article 9) "ethical considerations must always take precedence over laws and regulations"???
14:19 < fenn> clear evidence that nobody takes these documents seriously
14:22 < fenn> i guess they got rid of that one
14:26 < L29Ah> in .ru the doctor's oath doesn't postulate harm minimization, but working exclusively in the interest of patient instead
14:26 < L29Ah> // https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Клятва_Гиппократа#Клятва_врача_в_Российской_Федерации
14:27 < L29Ah> and is itself a part of law
14:29 < fenn> i'm not sure if it's better or worse for it to be part of law
14:30 < fenn> swearing to follow the law is preference falsification on its face
14:31 < L29Ah> one doesn't swear to follow the law, one swears on a specific portion of it as is stated at the moment of oath-taking
14:31 < fenn> this is my main problem with codes of conduct; if you HAVE to do it, it doesn't really mean anything
14:31 < L29Ah> do people have to accept codes of conduct?
14:32 < fenn> yes
14:32 < fenn> the alternative is not participating at all, usually
14:32  * L29Ah never did, even though some codes of conducts' texts insist he did
14:38 < fenn> if there's no difference between accepting and not accepting, then it's not possible to accept
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14:40 < fenn> "In private discussions, many highly regarded scientists admitted they had done self-experiments. Virtually all that we spoke to were unwilling to be identified. Some strenuously warned us against it, telling horror stories of institutional attempts to fire them."
14:41 < fenn> so perhaps the practice is more prevalent than generally understood
14:41 < Jay_Dugger> Seems likely.
14:46 < L29Ah> fenn: ah, i mean the oath text is in the law, but the oath points aren't law, so you can't be sued for not following it
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15:59 < kanzure> this pick-and-place manufacturer has a "solder paste jet printing" device https://essemtec.com/en/products/pick-and-place/ and this one does printed electronics https://www.nano-di.com/dragonfly-iv minimum line spacing: "75 μm traces / 100 μm spacing" 
16:25  * fenn notes that the review of self experimentation was published in "rejuvenation research"
16:30 < yashgaroth> they have a decent impact factor but it is basically aubrey's pet journal
17:06 < L29Ah> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:978689 potentially a 100 kilog centrifuge using a household vacuum as power source
17:33 < L29Ah> Muaddib: what's better, btrfs or zfs?
17:33 < Muaddib> L29Ah: zfs for storage, btrfs for rainbow dance parties.
18:20 < kanzure> Muaddib: Conan, what file system is good in life?
18:20 < Muaddib> kanzure: Laughter — it's the best file system.
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19:30 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=b018a075 Bryan Bishop: transcript: spaun 2.0 biologically plausible spiking neuron model >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/2023-03-06-eliasmith-spaun/
19:39 < kanzure> "Forget about He Jiankui, the Chinese scientist who created gene-edited babies. [..] That was certainly an ethical dumpster fire and raised profound questions[..] “I stand here before you today as proof miracles still happen,” Gray said of her battle with the disease."
19:39 < kanzure> it's not a miracle it's fucking science aaaaaaaaaaa
19:39 < kanzure> or is her miracle another ~ethical dumpster fire~
19:42 < kanzure> either the questions are important and profound or it's a dumpster fire, can't be both.
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21:24 < fenn> didn't antonio regalado light that dumpster on fire tho
22:06 < fenn> ugh i'm sure this was made in jest but it's a world we seem to be heading toward:
22:06 < fenn> @antonioregalado sez, "The summit is about CRISPR Babies but the phenomenon of Official Voices Who Run Journals versus Cowboys Who Don't Get Proper Patient Consent, is very much relevant there too. 
22:06 < fenn> Is a fact unkowable if it was generated unethically?"
22:29 < fenn> 'During the “AI winter,” when this technology fell out of favor in the 80s and 90s, the Canadian government was one of a few entities funding AI research. This support sustained the formidable trio ofGeoffrey Hinton,Yoshua Bengio, and Yann LeCun, the godfathers of deep learning.'
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22:30 < fenn> canadian singularity when
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 08 00:00:04 2023