--- Log opened Fri Mar 17 00:00:12 2023
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05:44 < hprmbridge> kanzure> silicon vs biology for the future https://stephenmalina.com/post/2023-01-11-viriditas-dialogue/
05:45 < hprmbridge> Perry> Why would you rely on a domain where engineering is so unpleasantly complicated? Biology was built for evolution, not for engineering.
05:46 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there are known things in biology that we can do that we are not doing. lots of low hanging fruit.
05:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> also, yes, we should be doing selective breeding of animals (including humans) for intelligence
05:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> other genetic interventions and speedups are also available
05:49 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ithink there's going to be tremendous bottlenecks on the supply of silicon and GPUs. making a new silicon fab costs billions and you don't really build excess capacity.
05:50 < hprmbridge> kanzure> with organoid 'server farm' or animal based intelligence, you have biological self-replication (a very primitive yet functional kind of molecular nanotechnology that already exists)
06:43 < kanzure> another interesting aspect of biology is how decentralized it is
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07:57 < kanzure> "A TV adaptation of the Gattaca is reportedly in development at Showtime with Craig Borten and Alex Gansa" nooo
07:57 < hprmbridge> lachlan> You really dislike that movie
07:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> it's a great movie but it has set back technology by devades
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08:36 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> I think a lot of scientists I know were kind of excited by it, still
08:36 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Fabs already costs billions, it hasn't seemed to stop anyone from building them left and right
08:36 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> Not as much as Jurassic Park
08:37 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> That the top genome editing pill
08:39 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> I really don't get this false dichotomy. Accept that there's some constraint on funding/effort, but the techs are completely synergistic. And wetware engineering is super far ahead in tons of areas where silicon has yet to catch up
08:40 < L29Ah> https://64.media.tumblr.com/5c2ac9289af04fb2910fa46df1ff8057/77e075041eafb482-a6/s1280x1920/4464904bfb64a7ddb1d12d08ba88ab83d01e30bd.png more right than left
08:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> @msnewgooty it seems that there's a lot more interest in silicon progress than biological progress. no idea why biology has been put more in the "off limits" zone.
08:43 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> Biology is more dangerous than silicon, for one. Engineered pathogen is most likely extinction event in my mind (tho the route there can of course be through AI risk)
08:44 < hprmbridge> kanzure> i don't think the silicon fans believe biology is more dangerous. it would require them to think it's more powerful. currently they think AI can be more dangerous.
08:45 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> the foom is a bit harder to predict, I guess. Mostly due to anticipated self-improvement cycles
08:45 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> Biology literally saved the world just under 2 years ago. People forget too fast
08:46 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Silicon is solid state, it allows easier exploration in some ways of the atomistic and material science... Which can then transfer to wet floppy biology
08:48 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Cryo em is solving some of that, but it's still relatively new
08:48 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> I really hope someday we can leverage the biological self-assembly approach for nanofabrication
08:49 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> the origami field was so wild early 2010s
08:49 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> but yeah...that's a big lift
08:49 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Directed self assembly in silicon is still figuring out how to perfect using polystyrene and poly methyl methacrylate
08:50 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Big sidechains are a significant burden for things like line edge roughness
08:51 < hprmbridge> nmz787> (which is a significant cause of yield degradation)
08:51 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Yield/performance depending on your design and fab process
08:52 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0332-7
08:52 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> I missed this when it first came out
08:53 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> silica, not silicon tho
08:55 < hprmbridge> lachlan> @nmz787 dsa for creating masks?
08:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> DNA origami hasn't had the results people hoped for. maybe protein instead.
09:00 < hprmbridge> lachlan> I probably just misunderstand the concept, but how could self-assembly ever be used for making things aside from homogenous materials. Chips aren’t just repeating pattern of gates. There are many different kinds of devices that get patterned, plus metal layers which are highly disordered
09:01 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Well more for going below the optical resolution limits
09:02 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Manhattan routing makes metals look like gratings, then you use a second pattern to selectively cut the grating lines
09:03 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Also that's only needed for the mid to lower metals, above that non euv optical still is fine for resolution
09:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Limitations of gene editing assessments in human preimplantation embryos" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-36820-6
09:11 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> You can self assemble a non-homogenous mask too
09:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> of course, this article assumes you are an idiot (you shouldn't be doing CRISPR microinjection)
09:38 < hprmbridge> nmz787> He may have been asking about actual devices, not *just* masks
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11:11 < hprmbridge> nmz787>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1086351073259823155/Screenshot_20230317-111106.png
11:11 < hprmbridge> nmz787> ChatGPT reasoning for popularity of diy astronomy vs microscopy
11:11 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Seems bogus reasoning to me
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11:39 < muurkha> oh hi Perry, good to see you.  Kragen (previously) Sittler here
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13:13 < fenn> on march 6th microsoft considered it "business critical" to dissolve their AI ethics team
13:13 < kanzure> was that before or after sydney?
13:16 < fenn> bing chat was released on feb 22
13:16 < fenn> 2023
13:16 < fenn> er... feb 9 ish?
13:18 < fenn> the media freakouts started being a media sensation around feb 15th
13:18 < fenn> the sydney freakouts*
13:22 < fenn> interesting. apparently they limited conversations to 6 turns when bing chat was first released, and then increased it to 10. microsoft claimed the problems were due to conversations over 15 turns. wonder why they didn't just keep the 10 turn limit then
13:23 < fenn> ok i'm just misunderstanding this, they introduced the turn limit after the freakouts
14:45 < hprmbridge> Perry> AI ethics isn’t.
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14:45 < estill01> Hi all
14:45 < estill01> I recently connected with Bryan
14:46 < estill01> I do tissue engineering, specifically vascularization and cultivation of large-scale tissue-systems
14:46 < estill01> (as well as software and other research engineering domains)
14:47 < superkuh> Hello.
14:47 < estill01> hey
14:48 < estill01> Are other people building things?
14:49 < estill01> how do you all generally use this space?
14:49 < estill01> I built a robot around the vascularization system which should be able to grow mammalian bio-systems to maturity
14:51 < superkuh> I doubt I'm representative. I lurk here to share and receive links to interesting papers. Been few years since I've done anything. I was working on inducing perceptions of acceleration through electrical stimulation of the inner ear through the skin.
14:52 < estill01> gotcha
14:52 < estill01> did it work?
14:52 < kanzure> we recently have had an uptick in biology people, like @msnewgooty (tagging newgooty through the discord bridge)
14:53 < kanzure> a handful of people working on molecular nanotechnology projects
14:53 < superkuh> Technically yes, with the single channel version I made I could feel an induced acceleration. Kind of a roll backwards and up. With multiple channels more control should be possible. Plus I wanted to make it wireless on esp8266 instead of parallel port controlled.
14:54 < kanzure> estill01: for tissue engineering i have recently been looking at these manuscripts, 
14:54 < kanzure> "Multimodal monitoring of human cortical organoids implanted in mice reveal functional connection with visual cortex" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35536-3
14:54 < kanzure> "Structural and functional integration of human forebrain organoids with the injured adult rat visual system" https://www.cell.com/cell-stem-cell/fulltext/S1934-5909(23)00004-8
14:54 < kanzure> "Reestablishment of damaged adult motor pathways by grafted embryonic cortical neurons" https://www.nature.com/articles/nn1970
14:55 < kanzure> and this one was really wild:
14:55 < kanzure> "Bundled three-dimensional human axon tracts derived from brain organoids" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004219303839
14:55 < muurkha> estill01: that's super awesome!
14:56 < estill01> kanzure cool. I'd seen some of the human+mouse stuff. Will check out the axon tract paper
14:56 < estill01> muurkha Yeah; hyped for sure. What area of this all are you paying attention to?
14:58 < estill01> superkuh this was an electrode mounted outside the ear? / what was the configuration. Obv simulating movement is an awesome UX for e.g. VR
14:59 < muurkha> just 3-D printing organs and stuff
14:59 < superkuh> estill01, Just two electrodes for me, one each side of the head on the ear behind the mastoid. http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Neuroscience/Vestibular%20Stimulation/
15:00 < estill01> muurkha does it work?
15:01 < kanzure> we used to have jmil in here before he got busy with https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20211027006115/en/Volumetric-to-Be-Acquired-by-3D-Systems-to-Advance-Tissue-and-Organ-Manufacturing
15:03 < kanzure> people come and go with time
15:03 < estill01> For sure. speaking of which... do have some things to do. But, wanted to pop in and intro myself
15:03 < estill01> and see if people want to grow things
15:04 < estill01> feel free to ping me if you do / or etc
15:07 < kanzure> mice with.. xenotransplanted deer antler stem cells grow deer antlers? https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.add0488
15:07 < estill01> you got me with that one
15:07 < estill01> lol
15:07 < estill01> interesting..
15:07 < kanzure> i demand pictures
15:08 < hprmbridge> kanzure>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1086410741021683863/image.png
15:08 < kanzure> ok not as cool as the tadpole extra eye
15:09 < estill01> hprmbridge win
15:09 < kanzure> "Such a treatment could raise ethical concerns about the cross-species implantation of cells, as well as the significant safety trials that would be required"
15:09 < kanzure> yes the significant ethical concerns of deer antlers
15:09 < kanzure> let us all pause and consider deer antlers for 5 years before proceeding
15:10 < estill01> those are wild pics
15:10 < kanzure> there was some tadpole extra eye work before levin btw, i was looking at it a while back
15:10 < estill01> yeah
15:10 < estill01> it started in.. 70s?
15:11 < estill01> but mike Levin is definitely the modern leader in the space
15:11 < estill01> imo
15:11 < kanzure> like this one (early 2000s) http://nopr.niscpr.res.in/bitstream/123456789/23208/1/IJEB%2043%288%29%20671-678.pdf
15:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1086411694928052274/image.png
15:14 < kanzure> btw the last thing i was corresponding with michael levin about was this thing i found called interspecies blastocyst complementation https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1611041947535216640 https://gnusha.org/logs/2023-01-05.log
15:14 < kanzure> diagram: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fl0PCEpWIBsfrBI?format=jpg&name=medium
15:57 < fenn> xenotransplants give viruses more chances to evolve and jump to human cells, creating new zoonotic diseases
16:00 < fenn> antler tissue is interesting because they penetrate the skin without leaving an infection-prone skin border
16:00 < fenn> you can run electrodes and tubes through the center of the antler into the rest of the body
16:11 < hprmbridge> nmz787> hmm, maybe the male deer "fights" are actually a process of connecting their brains together to share in the awe of collective deer consciousness
16:12 < nsh> .w zoonotic
16:12 < nsh> hmph
16:12 < nsh> <saxo> "zoonosis (n.)'disease communicated to humans by animals,' plural zoonoses, 1876, from Greek zōon 'animal' (see zoo-) + nosos 'disease' (see noso-)...." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/zoonosis
16:35 < estill01> fenn "you can run electrodes and tubes through the center of the antler into the rest of the body" Super interesting
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19:48 < kanzure> estill01: this is an old "crazy stuff" presentation i gave to the BEACON institute https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/2017-02-03-beacon.pdf
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22:35 < fenn> unsure if serious. "fun fact: Sam Altman always carries this "nuclear backpack" he can use to remotely detonate data centers if GPT goes rogue" https://twitter.com/bio_bootloader/status/1624446409851424768
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--- Log closed Sat Mar 18 00:00:14 2023