--- Log opened Sat Mar 25 00:00:20 2023
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05:06 < hprmbridge> kanzure> internship opportunity https://twitter.com/Jiankui_He/status/1639459625472004097
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07:19 < hprmbridge> kanzure> just inject mitochondria https://mobile.twitter.com/QuantaMagazine/status/1639338113989214220
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10:50 < hprmbridge> nmz787> So what's the best opensource option for training an AI model on software api manuals, source code and associated unit/integration tests, stack overflow ?
10:51 < kanzure> well, someone will probably give you an answer for the problem of training, but another option is to just paste it in as a query in the prompt token window
10:51 < kanzure> many of the models that people are using have already been trained on documentation and source code
10:52 < hprmbridge> nmz787> What prompt token window though?
10:52 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Something I can run inside a DMZ?
10:53 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Also I'd want to train it myself on things like geometry collections and associated design rules
10:53 < hprmbridge> nmz787> (probably maybe a different model, tho idk)
10:54 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Whatever Fenn mentioned earlier about bolting different models together sounded interesting
11:15 < hprmbridge> lachlan> The way to go would likely be a vector database
11:16 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Use langchain or whatever to do embedding lookups in a db containing embeddings of the docs you want to store
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11:55 < fenn> nmz787: for running something locally, the alpaca 7B is probably what you want, at this time. fair warning that this is new alpha grade software and it's nowhere near as good as chatGPT, but it is still impressive compared to what was available last year: https://replicate.com/blog/fine-tune-alpaca-with-lora
11:57 < fenn> nmz787: in addition to https://github.com/ggerganov/llama.cpp which can run on a newer laptop, you will also need a beefy GPU to do the training, and download the alpaca model: https://btcache.me/torrent/88335685B1BC76A77905E19883D80BDAF85435CE
11:59 < hprmbridge> lachlan> You can do the training on cpu, but it’ll be slow
11:59 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Best to train on rented A100s
12:00 < fenn> yeah but the whole point is to not let confidential data leave the premises
12:00 < fenn> otherwise i'd say just dump it all into gpt-4
12:00 < fenn> i assume he has access to servers on the corporate network
12:01 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Difficult otherwise without buying a lot of very expensive gpus
12:02 < fenn> nmz787: also there are a bunch of different formats in use concurrently, and different software may expect a format you're not using, so you may have to start from scratch with the llama 7B and retrain it to answer questions (alpaca) and then convert to ggml2 to run more efficiently/without a gpu
12:03 < fenn> nmz787: this doc has a bunch of links that may be helpful, https://rentry.org/llama-tard-v2
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12:07 < fenn> nmz787: also it should be obvious but ask around to see if anyone else is doing this already
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12:11 < hprmbridge> lachlan> It’s also pretty simple to torrent the original llama files, and then just use the scripts in llama.cpp to convert them
12:14 < hprmbridge> Perry> Doing stuff on GPT-4 and doing it on cloud A100s is different.
12:14 < hprmbridge> Perry> GPT-4 ToS gives OpenAI the right to use your stuff for training. Amazon absolutely is not looking at what you do with the A100s.
12:15 < hprmbridge> Perry> Side note: companies too paranoid to use cloud GPUs or GPT-4 at all are going to go bankrupt.
12:16 < hprmbridge> Perry> (There’s no way to keep up and you might as well be consigning yourself to irrelevance.)
12:18 < fenn> roughly my sentiments on the matter: https://twitter.com/mattparlmer/status/1635798692895801344
12:26 < nsh> .t
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12:27 < nsh> .t 1635798692895801344
12:27 < EmmyNoether> COME AND TAKE IT https://twitter.com/StevenPWalsh/status/1635797691597746176 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FrOGIolWYAAC2id.jpg (@mattparlmer) psa from .tw cmd: fuck twitter
12:27 < nsh> .t
12:27 < EmmyNoether> @mattparlmer A secure and responsible provision of advanced computational resources, being necessary for the progress of science and the general welfare of the people, the right of the citizens to own, use, and maintain matrix computing devices, shall not be infringed. (@StevenPWalsh, in reply to tw:1635792271814668288) psa from .tw cmd: fuck twitter
12:27 < nsh> agreed
12:27 < nsh> might clip that editorial, getting stale
12:31 < nsh> .t tw:1635792271814668288
12:31 < muurkha> it was pretty stale from the beginning; part of a pattern of destructive and aggressive behavior that has gotten worse over time
12:33 < nsh> .t tw:1635792271814668288
12:33 < EmmyNoether> A fight over this is coming but we will win it https://twitter.com/tautologer/status/1635780486357237764 (@mattparlmer) 
12:37 < muurkha> Perry: I think it's really important to understand the degrowthist case (whether we're talking about people advocating degrowth or predicting a risk that degrowth might happen) even if we don't agree with them.  The question, "Will progress continue?" is extremely important, and if we just answer it in the affirmative without understanding why intelligent people might disagree, we lose out in two 
12:37 < muurkha> ways: we miss chances to improve our own understanding, and we lack rebuttals to the opposing position in the parts where it is wrong.
12:39 < hprmbridge> Perry> The degrowth ideology is a “lets all be poorer” ideology, by definition.
12:39 < hprmbridge> Perry> And I don’t need to rebut them.
12:46 < docl> well eleitl is not some normie degrowther, so I don't filter him out entirely
12:46 < hprmbridge> Perry> Eugen doesn’t want degrowth, he just believes it’s inevitable.
12:47 < hprmbridge> Perry> And I don’t care to argue with him about it.
13:11 < docl> I see there being a time and place for risk talk, if not overdone. (of course, not overdoing it is the hard part. we seem wired for anxiety)
13:13 < hprmbridge> Perry> I don’t see notions like energy or resource availability constraints as at all realistic in the next few decades. Once we’re a type 2 civilization maybe.
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13:17 < docl> agreed. the real bottleneck is how effective we can be at organizing the resources.
13:28 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I'm thinking of doing it for dayjob, maybe get a publication out of it if I can manage the energy/effort. So I have a pretty large compute cluster available, not sure about GPU. I'm a little worried about how parallelization would work and if that alone will be a lot of work to get running. I've not really done cluster compute stuff before. Only threaded and multiprocess stuff on a single PC.
13:30 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Yeah this is probably the best idea to do first.
13:30 < kanzure> for general agent stuff i've been wondering about querying gpt-3.5-turbo multiple times for the perception-evaluation-execution loop (just ask it multiple questions about a current goal or objective, and start blank prompts to ask further questions, and finally one prompt to make a decision between options it previously produced, etc)
13:31 < hprmbridge> nmz787> My concern with that is, isn't it essentially a leaked/stolen model? If so, not something that I want to get into with dayjob.
13:31 < kanzure> ("What information from the sensors, produced here, seems relevant to include in a future prompt?" "Would you like the previous sensor data to be replayed?")
13:32 < fenn> nmz787: you can definitely get legal access to the original llama weights, not sure about a pre-trained alpaca model, but the alpaca git repo contains everything you'd need to re-train alpaca functionality
13:32 < fenn> it would be a lot of wasted compute tho
13:32 < kanzure> i thought facebook said just contact them to get it? i'm sure intel has a blanket approval by now, it's been a few weeks, if you ask
13:33 < fenn> the "leak" was just that someone let you bypass registration
13:33 < kanzure> maaku: why is everyone not using rumplepay, again?
13:34 < fenn> kanzure the API lets you see many different outputs from the probability distribution; is that different?
13:35 < kanzure> different from what?
13:35 < fenn> from asking it the same question multiple times and picking the best answer
13:35 < kanzure> oh, yeah that's just me not being good at english, i mean that you need to offer different prompts to the thing to get it to do agentic stuff
13:36 < kanzure> like you can't ask it to just behave like a normal human and do normal human things- you have to prompt it maybe ~100 times or something through a full decision loop
13:36 < kanzure> but i think much of this can be recursive and automated
13:37 < fenn> i suspect openAI is witholding a hypothetical LLM trained for agentyness
13:38 < fenn> maybe they're too chicken to even make it in the first place, i dunno
13:38 < fenn> how's the HustleGPT thing going?
13:39 < kanzure> i think you could emulate an agent with enough templates and "guided" successive prompting- it may not be efficient of course....
13:40 < kanzure> and it would be slow.
13:40 < fenn> for a fair evaluation of HustleGPT you'd need to look at one of the many copycats, because the meme originator is sucking all the oxygen out of the room
13:41 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Bicameral LLMs
13:41 < kanzure> oh hustlegpt was the one that told the human to start a website for selling uh.. "environmentally friendly something or other"?
13:42 < fenn> green gadget guru
13:43 < fenn> but then it immediately got tons of attention and "investors" and other unrealistic stuff
13:44 < fenn> "HustleGPT shouldn't be the CEO. That person should be a human that has motivation. HustleGPT can't even initiate interactions or send alerts. Without a real human with real drive this endeavor is a lost cause. HustleGPT should be SecretaryGPT or AdvisorGPT"
13:47 < fenn> well i don't agree with the need for a "real human" but a definitely constantly running loop that utilizes all the resources available to it. the stamina of machines is their greatest strength
13:48 < kanzure> hmm, i don't know if that's true, why not have hustlegpt set itself an auto-timer to "initiate" interactions?
13:48 < fenn> you'd need a sophisticated loop to not constantly be pestering every contact and pissing people off
13:49 < fenn> if you decide every minute "should i pester Bob now?" and it has a 2% chance of saying 'yes' you're going to be pestering Bob every hour
13:51 < fenn> if you ask chatGPT how long to wait until following up with a business contact, does it give a sane answer?
13:51 < fenn> from what i've seen it's not that great at managing money either
13:55 < fenn> i think you'd need to have it summarize the state of its own business plan, and then iterate through that, rather than the haphazard "what should we do next?" style that HustleGPT is doing
13:57 < fenn> also chatGPT seems to be a 'yes man' as long as it doesn't trip any hardcoded censorship barriers
13:57 < fenn> saying yes to every opportunity is not necessarily a workable strategy
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15:40 < kanzure> mitigations for ROP gadgets (return oriented programming) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35302767 https://www.openbsd.org/papers/csw2023.pdf
15:44 < hprmbridge> Perry> The best mitigation is don’t write code in C.
16:12 < hprmbridge> lachlan> well, just chatted with alexey guzey
16:13 < hprmbridge> lachlan> basically 45 minutes of him telling me that i need to think more about how AI is going to fuck us
16:13 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Was interesting though
16:13 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Worth having the conversation
16:14 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> Any other science topics aside?
16:28 < hprmbridge> lachlan> not really
16:28 < hprmbridge> lachlan> I should think of good arguments why I think that we should keep working on this stuff
16:29 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Let me be clear, his opinion was pretty nuanced
16:31 < hprmbridge> Perry> because billions of people will die if we don’t solve aging. Because we can get rid of hunger, disease, privation. We can conquer the stars.
16:37 < kanzure> it's kind of bizarre that people will go as far as worrying about AI killing us all but not worrying about another human doing that- if this was your serious fear then you should be working on multiplanetary expansion (or space habitats) or working towards your own attempt at extinction, i think. i don't see many other outcomes if you believe that.
16:38 < hprmbridge> Perry> The alignment problem for humans has not been solved, and will not be solved.
16:38 < kanzure> also, maybe i'm just in a weird part of the social graph, but it's bizarre to see so many people worried about AI extinction and loudly talking about it but not loudly talking about "hey y'all just a reminder that we're all aging and aging is still a problem"
16:39 < kanzure> aging is a much more local thing, and even if you don't believe that AI will kill us all, you are most definitely likely to believe that aging will kill you
16:39 < hprmbridge> Perry> my overall thought is that we will end up with lots and lots of competing things, and the AI and nanotechnology equivalents of immune systems.
16:40 < kanzure> lachlan: part of that thing you're feeling is probably just awe at the popularity of AI at the moment. people are in an absolute frenzy and working on things. this hasn't happened for the other important niche topics. it's very myopic.
16:40 < kanzure> i think it's fine if a few million people work on AI but i really don't see a good argument for why there isn't another few million working on aging as their main hyperfixation interest, or embryo engineering, or rockets, or....
16:41 < hprmbridge> Perry> if we get AI, we can solve all the other problems to.
16:41 < hprmbridge> Perry> too
16:42 < L29Ah> last time i heard this, AI was fusion power
16:42 < kanzure> maybe; but i've been complaining about GPU supply bottlenecks. and the best stuff is going to be expensive to run/you will be priced out of the market.
16:42 < kanzure> L29Ah: extremely cheap energy would certainly be nice
16:42  * L29Ah feels splitting between working on aging and participating in Montelibero, so far Montelibero wins
16:42 < kanzure> L29ah: is montelibero the montenegro conference thing?
16:42 < L29Ah> no
16:42 < hprmbridge> Perry> AI will reduce the price of GPUs.
16:43 < kanzure> Perry: on what timeframe?
16:43 < L29Ah> it's the ancap party project kinda
16:43 < kanzure> people are already starting to hoard GPUs again- it's going to be worse than the GPU crypto mining era because this time the non-crypto people are interested
16:44 < hprmbridge> Perry> hard to say. It’s a singularity man. You can’t see very far ahead.
16:44 < hprmbridge> Perry> I know much much less about 2026 than I knew about 2003 in 2000.
16:45 < L29Ah> not sure if singularity or senility
16:45 < L29Ah> or just an impostor syndrome
16:46 < kanzure> impostor syndrome needs to meet the no true scotsman fallacy and be done with it
16:47 < kanzure> i think that eventually GPU production will be scaled up and very cheap. i don't see any evidence of this supply getting created in the short-term. so far people are still talking about 1-3 years to get new silicon fabs online, and that's not talking about how much of their capacity is reserved by the GPU people.
16:49 < kanzure> to add to this, and perhaps a little strange, first movers on the hardware side are actually disadvantaged because they have to start long-cycle hardware projects that may be obsolete by the time they get produced (eg google's tensor compute ASIC missing something important from the spec that turns out to be critical to better training performance)
17:07 < hprmbridge> Perry> We will start reducing cycle times to get hardware out. Time from conception to “tape out” (now a misnomer) are going to shrink rapidly.
17:08 < hprmbridge> Perry> I can’t tell you how fast it will happen. It matters, but it is difficult to predict.
17:08 < hprmbridge> Perry> https://twitter.com/perrymetzger/status/1639777730395774978
17:12 < kanzure> the first bitter lesson was that you only needed lots of compute. the second bitter lesson will be that the "bitter qualia" doesn't matter or wasn't ever a real thing beyond a bunch of compute.
17:13 < hprmbridge> Perry> people will argue about qualia until the end of the universe.
17:13 < hprmbridge> Perry> Or until they find a physical explanation for them.
17:14 < hprmbridge> Perry> meanwhile, none of this stops an AI from designing a new tensor processing unit. It doesn’t need qualia to do that.
17:27 < kanzure> are there any good anonymous (micro)payment routing protocols? where the route or graph is anonymous and nobody learns the intermediaries along the route.
17:28 < kanzure> onion routing is out because onion routing requires the originator to pick a bunch of nodes in the graph and either know they are connected or assume they can easily establish a new connection, and then you know the route.
17:37 < fenn> it seems like interest in longevity research has been picking up the last few years
17:37 < fenn> of course, most people are still barking up the wrong tree, or "not even wrong"
17:38 < fenn> objectively, there is now a couple billion in funding available
17:38 < hprmbridge> Perry> zcash and analogs are the best anonymous cryptocurrency design.
17:38 < L29Ah> zcash requires a trusted setup, monero is more appealing in this matter
17:38 < hprmbridge> Perry> by the way, I strongly encourage you guys to try out the Discord side of the bridge. The feature set is much better than IRC has.
17:39 < L29Ah> that's vendor-locked webshit, right?
17:39 < hprmbridge> Perry> Zcash no longer requires trusted set up, and was always a much better design.
17:39  * fenn reacts with a new years confetti animation
17:39 < fenn> am i doing it right?
17:40 < hprmbridge> Perry> if you wanna call it that. I call it a much better alternative to a 35 year old protocol. But you do you. I am an old man, but I’m not senile yet. I’m not gonna use old crap just because I’m old.
17:40 < fenn> zulip has threaded conversations. otherwise i don't see the point of any "features" or else see them as actively harmful (blinking emoji gif shit)
17:41 < fenn> what features were you talking about?
17:41 < hprmbridge> Perry> there’s a certain species of person I refer to as “technoamish“. These are friends of mine who absolutely refuse to move on to new technologies when old ones become obsolete, finding rationalizations for it. Their productivity is much lower, and they slowly lose the ability to work with other people who weren’t born in ancient times.
17:43 < hprmbridge> Perry> I have one friend who has an android phone, but out of fear that Google might track which apps he buys, he hasn’t downloaded any. I have another friend who insists on doing all of his work on an ancient BSD system under a really old X window manager. He can’t even use modern communication applications.
17:43 < fenn> https://xkcd.com/1782/
17:44 < hprmbridge> Perry> I am old enough to have used machines with actual core memory and teletypes as terminals. If I am not too old to use modern stuff, no one else is either.
17:46 < hprmbridge> fenn> blech
17:47 < hprmbridge> fenn> https://tenor.com/view/clapping-clapping-hands-gif-22207932
17:47 < kanzure> so far the discord bridge experiment has gone alright, everyone from the discord side has been pretty well behaved
17:47 < kanzure> when some random subreddit added the hplusroadmap IRC channel to their /topic or sidebar, we got a flood of morons for years and it was awful
17:47 < kanzure> (they were poorly behaved morons)
17:48 < fenn> the fucking thing makes noise too?
17:48 < kanzure> oh, you can turn that off. you should turn it off.
17:49 < kanzure> perry was that core memory still in service or was that some ancient machine barely holding on to life?
17:49 < hprmbridge> Perry> discord will run on your phone. Now you can sit on the can and read hplusroadmap.
17:50 < hprmbridge> Perry> that was a perfectly serviceable PDP-8e. My first computer at my high school.
17:50 < kanzure> i forget your background with BSD but for some reason i think of some connection between you and netbsd or openbsd?
17:52 < fenn> i do have problems with "and they slowly lose the ability to work with other people who weren’t born in ancient times" but i don't know how to approach this problem without everything going to shit
17:52 < kanzure> and therefore it's your job to fight bitrot and preserve all computing environments?
17:53 < fenn> the default approach seems to be "just let google take care of everything for you" but then strangely everything disappears after a few years when google loses interest in that particular product
17:53 < fenn> i mean it's hard to even figure out how to engage with regular humans anymore
17:54 < hprmbridge> Perry> netbsd.
17:54 < fenn> there's this whole process of building up a personality on twitter by spouting opinions
17:54 < fenn> and somehow this gets you "in"
17:55 < fenn> but then you're judged retroactively for having had the "wrong" opinions according to future standards
17:56 < kanzure> "in" to what? the e/acc schizo twitter posting thing seems to just lead to weird group chats of people laughing about shrimp. i don't see any building. (a few people seem to be posting about experimenting with GPUs which is nice but i think you can find that almost anywhere now)
17:57 < fenn> i wouldn't know, but i assume other people still have social lives
17:57 < hprmbridge> Perry> The uplifted shrimp are important.
17:57 < kanzure> they have not uplifted any shrimp and i don't think they are serious about it
17:57 < kanzure> "backyard brains" was making cyborg cockroaches 10 years ago and actually had something to show for it
17:57 < hprmbridge> Perry> how do you know that they aren’t already uplifted shrimp.
17:58 < fenn> i made a cyborg cockroach
17:58 < fenn> it went "tic tic tic" on the speaker and that's about it
17:58 < kanzure> hm? didn't they also do the directional movement control thing?
17:58 < kanzure> maybe not.
17:58 < fenn> yes, attached to the feeler antennae
17:59 < fenn> i'm conflating it with that scene from the fifth element
17:59 < fenn> also there was a plastic toy janssen walker
18:00 < kanzure> i don't think shrimp would be a good target for initial uplift; you need something with more brain mass. octopus is too difficult. dog you can't have a million dogs because people frown upon that. and they generally won't give you access to endangered primates.
18:01 < fenn> https://flickr.com/photos/fennfoot/4418664055/in/album-72157623459537025/
18:03 < hprmbridge> Perry> the shrimp thing is a joke.
18:04 < kanzure> i guess it's an improvement that at least a portion of society is interested in laughing about uplifted shrimp as a real possibility
18:04 < kanzure> that's forward progress right?
18:04 < hprmbridge> Perry> those guys exist to oppose the effective altruism “slow down slow down“ crowd.
18:06 < fenn> kanzure your timeline for 3-5 years to make smarter animals is unrealistic
18:06 < fenn> with breeding alone anyway
18:06 < kanzure> certainly with that attitude!
18:06 < hprmbridge> Perry> goth600 has renamed himself shuggoth600
18:06 < hprmbridge> lachlan> shoggoth600
18:06 < kanzure> i think we can get a smarter animal in 3-5 years using all of our techniques at disposal
18:06 < kanzure> like cloning, genetic engineering, gene synthesis, humanized genes (or just using proteins from smarter animals)
18:07 < kanzure> genomic selection and analysis (eg polygenic scoring)
18:07 < hprmbridge> Perry> why would we spend time on that instead of on much more fundamental stuff, like nanotechnology or AI?
18:07 < hprmbridge> lachlan> I strongly disagree with the opinion that AGI is going to kill humans, but it feels unfalsifiable
18:07 < kanzure> also, there are certain hormones that can accelerate breeding cycles and/or time to sexual maturity, and if you start with the right species (frog or rat) you can do rapid breeding and large litter sizes
18:08 < kanzure> we have had molecular nanotechnology for more than 3 decades and nobody has figured out how to use ribosomes to achieve their molecular nanotechnology dreams
18:08 < kanzure> artificial intelligence is pretty great but biological intelligence still has a lot of mass and energy benefits going for it (i'm not convinced biology is worthless)
18:08 < hprmbridge> Perry> in some sense, they might kill off humans, in the sense that unmodified humans will probably mostly upload or augment.
18:09 < kanzure> lsneff: all sorts of things could theoretically kill all humans. there are also some things (including AGI) that could lead to a quadrillion human lives in the cosmos in the future.
18:09 < hprmbridge> Perry> I don’t see what the advantage of biological intelligence os. It’s based on a bunch of really inefficient kludges.
18:09 < kanzure> self-replication, for one
18:10 < kanzure> less reliance on silicon supply chain
18:10 < hprmbridge> Perry> with molecular manufacturing, anything can self replicate.
18:10 < kanzure> yes it would be great to have funding to work on molecular nanotechnology and APM
18:10 < hprmbridge> Perry> The next few years or decades are a transitional period.
18:11 < kanzure> it might be easier to get funding to work on animal intelligence than it is to get funding to do the R&D on atomically precise manufacturing
18:11 < kanzure> biology also has some pretty amazing decentralization benefits going for it
18:12 < hprmbridge> Perry> but I have no interest in augmenting animal intelligence. and if AI gets good enough, it can be used to build MNT.
18:12 < kanzure> intelligence is not the limiting factor for molecular nanotechnology
18:12 < hprmbridge> Perry> of course it is. There may be ten of us who can work on the problem in the world these days.
18:12 < hprmbridge> Perry> if I could spin up as many engineers as I wanted in AWS, the problem would go away fast.
18:13 < kanzure> i think a few hundred million dollars would allow a team of ~10 people selected from a population of 10 million, to achieve MNT
18:13 < kanzure> randomly selected i mean
18:13 < hprmbridge> Perry> there is no way to achieve molecular manufacturing with ten people. At least not ten unaugmented humans.
18:14 < hprmbridge> Perry> and there’s a teeny number of people in the world who can read nanosystems and understand it, no matter what Eric thinks.
18:14 < kanzure> if they aren't allowed to outsource to contractors or suppliers/vendors then i would agree that 10 people isn't enough
18:14 < kanzure> like, if you have to build every component in your AFM, and your UHV, and grind all your lenses and make all your lasers, sure...
18:14 < kanzure> or if you can't just buy one of your fancy interferometers for accurate sub-angstrom positioning... etc.
18:15 < hprmbridge> Perry> anyway, the two fundamental technologies are molecular manufacturing and artificial intelligence. If you get either of those, you have the other. Once you have both of them, I don’t know what the point would be of biology.
18:15 < kanzure> can you formulate that thought in a way where someone replying doesn't get branded a luddite
18:15 < hprmbridge> Perry> it isn’t just a question of being able to buy enough equipment. You can’t even build a modern high end microprocessor with ten people.
18:16 < kanzure> not sure what you mean, lots of design shops have small teams, then they send it in to the fab to get made
18:16 < kanzure> this is what PDKs are for after all
18:17 < hprmbridge> Perry> it takes many hundreds of engineers at Intel to build a new high end processor. Same at AMD. that problem is simpler than molecular manufacturing.
18:18 < kanzure> what if you are stuck with ribosome/polymerase-based molecular nanotechnology with DNA molecular ticker tapes? and what if you are stuck with current level AI? i think in that scenario it's possible to get stuck waiting for a further advancement while you could be working on other interesting things like biology.
18:18 < hprmbridge> Perry> A small team can probably make substantial progress, enough to get additional funding. Especially if you exploit artificial intelligence. The new developments in AI have given me a great deal of hope. But one should understand that the problem is indeed gated on the engineering resources.
18:19 < kanzure> i dunno, i think we should try just having a team with a lot of funding first, and if they give up because they can't hire enough engineers, then that's a nice thing to have learned
18:19 < hprmbridge> Perry> The only thing I deeply care about in biology at the moment is life extension, in case the other stuff stalls out.
18:19 < hprmbridge> Perry> then why waste those resources on uplifting animals?
18:20 < kanzure> animal intelligence could be competitive with silicon-constrained GPU-constrained AGI in the near-term
18:20 < hprmbridge> Perry> I mean it’s at least theoretically doable. Nothing could stop you from uplifting animals. But what would the point be?
18:20 < kanzure> AI slave labor just like the nation of GPU workers
18:20 < hprmbridge> Perry> I will take the bet that there is no purpose in having animal brains around to compete with AGI.
18:21 < hprmbridge> Perry> and the current AIs are incredibly impressive and clearly not the end of the line. No one has stalled out on progress so far.
18:21 < kanzure> that's like saying human (knowledge) labor is worthless right now-- clearly it is not; people are still getting hired. perhaps you could argue the market hasn't had time to react to the obscolescence of human workers.
18:21 < hprmbridge> Perry> I’m using the things every day. They are remarkably hopefully my work. And the transition between GPT 3.5 and GPT 4 has on its own been dramatic.
18:21 < kanzure> but i think there's real scaling issues here; like replacing a workforce of 8 billion people is going to take a lot of GPU compute that we just don't have right now
18:22 < kanzure> yes i'm using it daily too
18:22 < hprmbridge> Perry> and I haven’t even gotten access yet to the 32K token model.
18:22 < kanzure> (the problem with arguing about which scenario we are in is that if i say biology is interesting, i sound like a luddite who isn't playing with AI or just as excited as the rest of everyone- ugh)
18:22 < hprmbridge> Perry> I don’t see why building GPUs is going to be a bottleneck. At least not a substantial one.
18:23 < hprmbridge> Perry> and really they are TPUs at this point.
18:23 < kanzure> they should be TPUs. are they actually TPUs? like google's? i think google cloud does have TPUs available as an option...
18:23 < hprmbridge> Perry> Biology is certainly intellectually interesting. I’ve spent a lot of my adult life studying molecular biology. But I don’t think that it’s the key to getting to the stars.
18:24 < hprmbridge> Perry> they should be referred to as TPUs because they are not doing any graphics processing. They are doing tensor operations.
18:24 < kanzure> we have a magic self-replication technology already and we don't really know how much work it will take to get a non-biological self-replicator
18:24 < kanzure> so why not use the stuff we have?
18:24 < hprmbridge> Perry> it just so happens that people repurposed GPUs for tensor processing, but at this point, most of what people care about is the tensor processing, not playing video games.
18:25 < hprmbridge> Perry> why not use the stuff we have already? Because biology is a horrible mess, hard to engineer, and has access only to low energy reactions.
18:25 < kanzure> oh it's hard okay let's go home? :)
18:25 < hprmbridge> Perry> The only interest I have in it is that I am currently made of meat, as are the people I care about.
18:26 < hprmbridge> Perry> but if you have molecular manufacturing, you can fix biology much more easily than by attempting to fix biology directly.
18:27 < kanzure> yes biology is an awful mess, no disagreement there.
18:27 < kanzure> "... there is no source, the bytecode has multiple reentrent abstractions, is unstable and has a very low signal to noise ratio, the runtime is unbootstrappable, the execution is nondeterministic, it tries to randomly integrate and execute code from other computers... multiple reentrant and self-modifying abstractions. absolutely everything has subtle side effects."
18:27 < docl> not too hard to imagine a self replicating stack built around drmeister's spiroligomers. catalysts, membranes, everything proteins do but more model-friendly. could also be useful in diamondoid bootstrap as well
18:27 < kanzure> see https://groups.google.com/g/diybio/c/GxRTESzUWUI/m/IS-zLDlUu_YJ
18:27 < hprmbridge> Perry> some engineering problems are more tractable than others. The human biological system is amazing, an incredibly complicated design packed into under 4 billion base pairs worth of information. But attempting to tweak it is an unholy mess.
18:27 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g
18:28 < hprmbridge> Perry> yes, I know Chris.
18:28 < kanzure> long-term if biology sticks around the direction is towards replacing brownian motion with more stable predictable deterministic subcomponents and systems.
18:28 < hprmbridge> Perry> and I fear that I introduced him to LLVM.
18:28 < fenn> .t
18:28 < EmmyNoether> No title found
18:28 < docl> oh dear :)
18:28 < kanzure> drmeister is actually in here on the IRC side
18:29 < hprmbridge> Perry> very cool. Chris, if you’re around, feel free to get in touch with me sometime soon.
18:30 < fenn> biology and LLMs are both steps toward greater technology
18:31 < fenn> even drexler is saying we should use biology as an intermediate molecular manufacturing technique
18:31 < docl> does drexler know about spiroligomers though?
18:32 < fenn> yeesh, since 1981 apparently http://www.imm.org/publications/pnas/
18:33 < fenn> i can't remember the name of his blog
18:35 < kanzure> you could have biological molecular nanotechnology and biological "artificial" intelligence. biology still seems plenty useful to me.
18:35 < fenn> oh, it's not online anymore
18:36 < docl> seems like some there are major tractability gains using spiroligomer rather than protein. main drawback would be not having natural data from evolved organisms to lean on. but if you want to engineer it from the ground up, it seems a lot better
18:36 < kanzure> i would accept an argument of the structure "the biological singularity will not happen first because the biologists are too lame and the software engineers are all eager to create progress"
18:37 < kanzure> (the biologists have largely committed to status quo preservation and don't have a shared vision of the future that inspires anyone)
18:37 < hprmbridge> Perry> Eric has thought we should bootstrap from biology forever. I strongly believe he’s wrong.
18:37 < drmeister> Hi
18:38 < drmeister> hprmbridge: Are you Perry?
18:38 < hprmbridge> Perry> drmeister: hello Chris!
18:38 < hprmbridge> Perry> hprmbridge is a messy bridge between discord and irc.
18:39 < kanzure> pmetzger is on the other side of the bridge.
18:39 < drmeister> Ah.
18:39 < hprmbridge> Perry> How’s Temple?
18:39  * fenn emerges from the internet mines carrying https://web.archive.org/web/20160123172511/http://metamodern.com/2009/03/19/a-high-performance-polymer-for-nanosytems-engineering/
18:39 < drmeister> What is on the other side of the bridge on Discord?
18:40 < docl> 23 online people and 89 offline
18:40 < kanzure> just the discord user interface
18:40 < fenn> cat gifs
18:40 < hprmbridge> Perry> A discord group that exists to be bridged to IRC.
18:40 < kanzure> the invite link is https://discord.gg/vFPzfaaeXv
18:40 < hprmbridge> drmeister> I see - hello.
18:40 < hprmbridge> Perry> IRC is old.
18:41 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Indeed.
18:41 < hprmbridge> Perry> Not as old as me but okd.
18:41 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Temple is fine.  I'm splitting my time between that and a company I started funded by the DOD.
18:42 < fenn> oh right, emotes don't get sent. https://web.archive.org/web/20160123172511/http://metamodern.com/2009/03/19/a-high-performance-polymer-for-nanosytems-engineering/
18:44 < hprmbridge> Perry> What does the company do?
18:45 < hprmbridge> Perry> bisamino acid stuff?
18:45 < hprmbridge> drmeister> It builds spiroligomers - what else 🙂
18:45 < kanzure> could the spiroligomer monomers fit inside of a ribosome?
18:45 < docl> https://www.thirdlaw.tech/
18:45 < hprmbridge> drmeister> We are developing a technology to replace monoclonal antibodies in diagnostic tests and starting a drug company.
18:46 < hprmbridge> Perry> Sounds like considerable fun!
18:47 < hprmbridge> Perry> I remember that you had some antibacterial agents at one point.
18:47 -!- hprmbridge [~hprmbridg@bryan.fairlystable.org] has quit [Quit: Goodbye.]
18:47 -!- hprmbridge [~hprmbridg@bryan.fairlystable.org] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:50 < hprmbridge> Perry> as I recall you could very precisely dock them to sites on a bacterial surface.
18:52 < hprmbridge> drmeister> We are working on other things at the present time.
18:53 < hprmbridge> Perry> I never quite understood what biocompatibility issues might exist for spiroligomers; can the liver break them down etc?
18:54 < hprmbridge> drmeister> In the last three years, we have made 2.5 million spiroligomers which are around 4,500 Daltons in molecular weight each.  Each contains 30 stereocenters and twelve functional groups.  This was enabled by scaling the building blocks up to tens of kilogram scale.
18:54 < hprmbridge> Perry> Wow!
18:54 < hprmbridge> drmeister> We haven't published much in the last couple of years because we've been working under the radar.
18:54 < hprmbridge> Perry> That’s a big change in manufacturing rate.
18:54 < docl> is there any upper limit on the molecular size? lsneff asked me this the other day and I wasn't sure
18:54 < hprmbridge> Perry> Being able to make tens of kgs is incredibly impressive.
18:55 < hprmbridge> Perry> I’ll want to hear about how you did that some time.
18:55 < hprmbridge> Perry> There should be no reasonable upper limit.
18:55 < hprmbridge> Perry> (On size.)
18:55 < hprmbridge> drmeister> docl: You lose at every synthesis step - so - yeah - there's a limit.  But you can do a lot of things around 5,000 Daltons.
18:56 < hprmbridge> Perry> You lose at every synthesis step but there are mechanisms to increase yield a great deal.
18:56 < hprmbridge> drmeister> More like there are diminishing returns.
18:56 < hprmbridge> Perry> solid phase synthesis etc.
18:56 < docl> ah, makes sense
18:56 < hprmbridge> Perry> I’m sure Christian has thought about all of them in crazy depth.
18:56 < hprmbridge> Perry> Because his lab has probably tried them all by now. 🙂
18:57 < hprmbridge> Perry> 5000 daltons is a lot of space to run and play under.
18:57 < hprmbridge> Perry> How do you manage a library of 2.5M compounds?
18:57 < hprmbridge> drmeister> DNA-encoded library synthesis.
18:58 < hprmbridge> Perry> Have you published on that?
18:58 < hprmbridge> Perry> I would love to read it if so.
18:58 < hprmbridge> drmeister> And very, very, very small reactors.
18:58 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Not yet.
18:58 < kanzure> is this like liu's DNA-templated synthesis thing
18:58 < docl> stuff like ball milling?
18:58 < hprmbridge> Perry> Then I’ll have to pick your brain on the phone or something. It sounds amazing.
18:58 < hprmbridge> drmeister> No, DNA-encoding just keeps track of what synthesis steps a bead/reactor went through.
18:59 < kanzure> here is david liu's DNA-templated synthesis thing https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.accounts.7b00280
18:59 < hprmbridge> Perry> So you are doing the polystyrene bead thing.
18:59 < hprmbridge> Perry> Makes sense.
18:59 < hprmbridge> drmeister> @Perry Are you still writing Common Lisp?
19:00 < hprmbridge> Perry> I was working in other functional languages for quite a bit. OCaml for a few years. Then I managed a large team of OCaml programmers for a while. Long long story. Better talked about in higher bandwidth.
19:00 < hprmbridge> drmeister> I still am
19:00 < hprmbridge> drmeister> https://github.com/cando-developers/cando
19:00 < hprmbridge> Perry> Yah, I saw a talk of yours on cando on youtube or some such a while back.
19:01 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Right.
19:01 < hprmbridge> Perry> LLVM and Common Lisp are both powerful drugs. 🙂
19:01 < hprmbridge> docl> tagging @eudoxia @Darius and all other lispers
19:01 < hprmbridge> Perry> I haven’t touched LLVM in a few months but I may have another LLVM project soon.
19:02 < fenn> drmeister: a minor distracting thing. in your website css, please use: p { text-align: left; }
19:02 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Here's a recent talk that describes what we have been up to...
19:02 < hprmbridge> drmeister> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ09nW8UhU4&t=194s
19:02 < hprmbridge> drmeister> fenn> ?  Which website?
19:02 < fenn> on https://www.thirdlaw.tech/
19:03 < fenn> text-align: justify looks okay too
19:03 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Oh, that old thing.  We are updating it soon.
19:03 < hprmbridge> Perry> I was going to resurrect an old PL project now that magic LLM coding is a thing.
19:04 < hprmbridge> Perry> I mean I can just ask the things to produce code generators now. It’s kind of amazeballs.
19:04 < kanzure> i haven't watched your foresight talk; is this a spiroligomer probe tip for AFM and then do pick-and-place construction of larger molecular objects?
19:05 < hprmbridge> Perry> (I’ve been meaning to play with dependently typed lisps for a while and now I might have the time to do it because I don’t have to write all the code myself.)
19:05 < hprmbridge> drmeister> I'm so disappointed in ChatGPT-4.   I expected an oracle and all I've been getting is confident bullshit.
19:05 < hprmbridge> Perry> You have to know how to use it right
19:05 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:79a5:378a:9973:88f0] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:05 < hprmbridge> Perry> It isn’t an oracle. It’s an assistant.
19:05 < hprmbridge> Perry> It will get things wrong but you can tell it to fix them.
19:05 < hprmbridge> Perry> It’s not useful if you don’t know how to do the thing you’ve asked it to do.
19:06 < hprmbridge> Perry> Future ones will be more like oracles but not yet.
19:06 < hprmbridge> Perry> But for example, the other day I got it to synthesize a CPU emulator for me that I needed (for a weird example architecture for a book I’ve written; long story there.)
19:06 < hprmbridge> Perry> And it saved me days of work.
19:07 < hprmbridge> Perry> If you don’t know what you’re reading it’s going to be much harder to use though.
19:07 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Hmmm
19:07 < hprmbridge> Perry> The prompt engineering is also non-trivial. You really need to know what prompts work and what prompts do not.
19:08 < docl> I kind of wish I could get an LLM trained on clasp/cando/LLVM so I could get past the newbie hurdles. it does know a lot about docker though
19:08 < hprmbridge> Perry> If you just said “write a common lisp interpreter for me” it will do nothing.
19:08 < hprmbridge> drmeister> I asked it how to identify internal pointers in the bdwgc and it confidently told me to use an API function that doesn't exist.
19:08 < kanzure> i bet chatgpt-3.5-turbo knows llvm intermediate bytecode
19:08 < hprmbridge> Perry> Oh, it hallucinates easily.
19:08 < hprmbridge> Perry> If you ask it for stuff it will make up APIs that should exist but don’t.
19:09 < hprmbridge> Perry> And often they’re very reasonable APIs that don’t exist too which is kind of funny.
19:09 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yep here it is: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1089370408098205696/image.png
19:09 < hprmbridge> drmeister> I told it "that function doesn't exist" and it said "I am sorry, you are correct, use XXXX".  XXXX didn't exist either.
19:09 < hprmbridge> Perry> You can also get it to hallucinate paper references. It will make up papers and pick reasonable authors who might have written such a paper but haven’t.
19:09 < kanzure> pfft i do that all the time
19:09 < hprmbridge> Perry> Which is really giggle worthy.
19:10 < hprmbridge> Perry> That’s a reasonable hello world in LLVM btw.
19:11 < hprmbridge> Perry> In the future you’ll be able to tell successors to these systems to do much more interesting stuff but right now you need to work to get them to do the right thing. Still saves a fuck-ton of time.
19:11 < hprmbridge> Perry> It’s especially important to get the thing to synthesize tests because the code is often subtly broken.
19:12 < hprmbridge> Perry> I’ve been trying out a working style where I interactively develop an english pseudocode spec and then have the thing successively develop the sections. It’s sort of like doing Wirth style top down refinement.
19:12 < hprmbridge> Perry> Not sure if it’s the right thing yet. Still playing.
19:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1089371345952968704/image.png
19:12 < docl> huh, chatgpt has heard of clasp/cando/llvm now. they either improved it since last I checked or I'm misremembering
19:13 < hprmbridge> Perry> chatgpt or GPT4?
19:13 < kanzure> hm the bride only shares one image at a time
19:13 < hprmbridge> Perry> There are a bunch of models you have access to there…
19:13 < kanzure> the other one was https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1064664282450628710/1089371346405969920/image.png
19:13 < hprmbridge> Perry> What is that?
19:14 < hprmbridge> kanzure> drmeister's plan for world domination no less
19:14 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Ok, I take back all the terrible things I thought about ChatGPT4.
19:14 < hprmbridge> Perry> Ah.
19:14 < hprmbridge> drmeister>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1089371683464417330/image.png
19:14 < hprmbridge> Perry> @drmeister Don’t take them back, it’s easy to get tricked. You can’t use it naively.
19:14 < hprmbridge> Perry> But it’s still a crazy useful tool. You have to work with it very carefully.
19:15 < hprmbridge> Perry> I’ve also found that much much longer prompts than you expect are useful. I’ve given it thousand word descriptions etc.
19:16 < kanzure> i like the idea of flowing in parts, but how do you get correct orientation on the probe tip? is it just law of large numbers and eventually it finds one in the right orientation to attach? and then you know it can be placed correctly into the assembly?
19:17 < muurkha> wrt "Eugen doesn’t want degrowth, he just believes it’s inevitable," I think the question of "what might make us all poorer, how likely is it, and how can we avoid it",  seems pretty critically important
19:17 < kanzure> it's actually pretty similar to flowing in tRNA charged with amino acids, and ribosomes get access to the flow of parts
19:17 < muurkha> energy and resource availability constraints themselves are not realistic, ut constraints in being able to use them in practice might be
19:17 < hprmbridge> Perry> Like I’ve done things like feeding it long descriptions of a piece of code and it has worked well.
19:17 < kanzure> (we have a tRNA injection flowing scheme that we will be talking about in austin)
19:18 < hprmbridge> Perry> muurkha: I’m not interested in Eugen’s current doomerism. I like him but the “nothing is going to ever work” thing isn’t something I care to spend time on.
19:19 < hprmbridge> Perry> Anyway, good night.
19:20 < kanzure> good night
19:20 < hprmbridge> fenn> https://tenor.com/view/pusheen-sleepy-sleeping-cute-cat-gif-17136430
19:21 < hprmbridge> fenn> am i doing it right
19:22 < hprmbridge> fenn> the "gif" is a lie. i can see the video encoder block artifacts!
19:22 < muurkha> Perry: I thought he seemed to be talking about pretty reasonable inferences from incorrect information, like the thing about the fossil-fuel inputs to the current agriculture system
19:23 < muurkha> it's important to know which particular misconceptions these inferences are based on if we want to counter them when they're incorrect
19:23 < muurkha> docl: maybe last time you were talking to chatgpt it was imitating a person who hadn't heard of those things
19:23 < docl> if you want more info about where he's coming from, r/collapse might be a good starting point (with all due grains of salt)
19:24 < docl> possibly! I think it was in the pre-3.5 days though
19:24 < muurkha> I mean I agree taht debate isn't always worthwhile.  But it's sometimes very worthwhile!
19:29 < kanzure> hm the talk didn't mention much about positional assembly of spiroligomer probe tips but sounds like it might be in a foresight institute nanotechnology roadmap document somewhere
19:31 < kanzure> the synthesis of spiroligomer probe tips is likely to be less involved than the bulk chemical synthesis of silicon donation probe tips (the reaction pathway for which was recently documented in public) (synthetic metallochemistry stuff)
19:32 < hprmbridge> drmeister> If you grab onto the tip through three points of attachment we could orient it precisely.
19:33 < kanzure> would you need ultra high vacuum to do this positional assembly?
19:33 < drmeister> I don't think so.
19:34 < drmeister> Not if we manipulate large structures ~5,000 Daltons and use linking chemistry that works in solution.
19:34 < kanzure> like blasting a bunch of proteins with glutaraldehyde?
19:35 < fenn> i think you need 5 maybe 6 points to unambiguously constrain an attachment, according to kinematics theory
19:35 < kanzure> something something stewart platforms https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/whisper/spiroligomer-probe-tips.txt
19:35 < kanzure> pretty cool
19:36 < fenn> kanzure: your typing is getting faster :)
19:36 < kanzure> it just doesn't format the transcript into something pretty :(
19:36 < kanzure> speaker pauses should be sufficient to identify new paragraphs but pyannote has install problems and i got annoyed
19:37 < fenn> i wonder if you can dump hplusroadmap logs into your speech recognition service so it gets new words like "spiroligomer" instead of "spear ligaments"
19:38 < fenn> 2-grams ought to be enough
19:38 < fenn> or a list of words
19:38 < kanzure> a jargon file would be a nice feature
19:42 < fenn> i'm trying to get chatGPT (3.5) to design a parameterized rocket in python, but it was making dumb mistakes so i had it use strongly typed units, and now the units are getting all jammed up
19:42 < kanzure> maybe github copilot instead.
19:43 < fenn> the goal here is to see what it's capable of, what the pitfalls are
19:44 < kanzure> CNBC discovers the singularity https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/20/in-san-francisco-some-people-wonder-when-ai-will-kill-us-all-.html
19:44 < fenn> what's ur shock level bro
19:46 < fenn> it's painful to see these ideas dumbed down and echoed around until they reach maximum mainstream palatability
19:48 < kanzure> hopefully the journlaists will do their dumb thing where they will show "both sides" and include one or two comments from someone going "maybe it's okay to build new things"
19:51 < muurkha> I thought the Matrix and Terminator had already dumbed down "AI will kill us all" about as far as it could go
19:53 < fenn> they have decent backstories
19:53 < fenn> the animatrix goes into the machine revolution in some detail
19:55 < fenn> "According to James Cameron, Skynet suffered from guilt for causing the near-extinction of the human race in its act of self-defense and has manipulated the entire Future War, down to the creation of the Resistance and John Connor's rise as means to erase its own existence."
19:55 < fenn> betcha didn't see that one coming
20:00 < fenn> mostly i'm just irritated by people saying "aligned" without having a clue what it actually meant
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20:24 < hprmbridge> lachlan> woah, what are those nano machine assembly slides from?
20:25 < fenn> schafmeister's talk
20:25 < hprmbridge> lachlan> That’s wild
20:26 < fenn> it doesn't exist yet
20:27 < fenn> they're only doing bulk self-assembly
20:30 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Well, diamondoid mechanosynthesis didn’t publicly exist either
20:31 < fenn> he's an academic and has lots to gain by showing off capabilities
20:36 < fenn> hm i was expecting to find a directory of spiroligomer papers
20:41 < fenn> lachlan, i couldn't find any relevant paper, only a minute or so from this foresight talk http://youtu.be/yQ09nW8UhU4?t=25m42s
20:41 < Muaddib> [yQ09nW8UhU4] C. Schafmeister | Hardware and Software of a Critical Path to Bottom-up Molecular Nanotechnology (59:00)
20:42 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Our papers are all in chemistry journals.
20:43 < fenn> yes, i meant i expected someone to have downloaded them and squirreled them away on our server somewhere
20:43 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Here's a recent one: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.orglett.2c01295
20:44 < fenn> drmeister: do you have a paper about positional (mechano)synthesis?
20:44 < hprmbridge> drmeister> No - that's speculation - you can't publish that.
20:44 < hprmbridge> lachlan> @drmeister what is an application you’d like to use spiroligomers for in the long term?
20:44 < hprmbridge> lachlan> you have stronger morals than many
20:44 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Catalysts - molecules that make other molecules.
20:45 < hprmbridge> lachlan> what kind of molecules?
20:46 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Everything we need.  Fuel, feedstocks, fertilizers.
20:47 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Think you can make externally controllable actuators out of spiroligomers? Either bending joints or linear
20:51 < docl> saw this paper the other day, seems like ball milling with spiroligomer catalysts could be an interesting approach. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5269651/
21:29 < hprmbridge> drmeister> Good night.
22:14 < hprmbridge> fenn> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/739910660280025188/1063167185326973069/Screenshot_20230112-104614.png?width=413&height=421
22:14 < hprmbridge> fenn> just clip posting
22:30 < docl> .t https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_beacon
22:30 < EmmyNoether> " / 		 / 			 / 			1Molecular beacon probes / 		 / 		 / 		 / 		 / 	  / 		 / 			 / 			2Use in Cell Engineering / 		 / 		 / 		 / 		 / 	  / 		 / 			 / 			3Synthesis / 		 / 		 / 		 / 		 / 	" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_beacon
22:37 < fenn> strange, it should have just said "Molecular beacon - Wikipedia"
22:38 < docl> is .t the wrong command to use with a wikipedia link?
22:38 < fenn> what did you want it to do? display the intro/lede/summary?
22:38 < fenn> .wik molecular beacon
22:39 < EmmyNoether> " / 		 / 			 / 			1Molecular beacon probes / 		 / 		 / 		 / 		 / 	  / 		 / 			 / 			2Use in Cell Engineering / 		 / 		 / 		 / 		 / 	  / 		 / 			 / 			3Synthesis / 		 / 		 / 		 / 		 / 	" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_beacon
22:39 < fenn> ok that isn't what it's supposed to do either
22:39 < fenn> maybe this is the new wikipedia skin causing problems
22:39 < fenn> .t https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_beacon?useskin=vector
22:39 < EmmyNoether> "Molecular beacons, or molecular beacon probes, are oligonucleotide hybridization probes that can report the presence of specific nucleic acids in homogenous solutions." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_beacon?useskin=vector
22:40  * fenn gently nudges nsh
22:40 < docl> just wanted to mention it for reference since it was in the talk. method for figuring out which catalysts work on a specific crosslink molecule
22:41 < fenn> reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B6rster_resonance_energy_transfer?useskin=vector
22:41 < fenn> .t
22:41 < EmmyNoether> "Förster resonance energy transfer (FRET), fluorescence resonance energy transfer, resonance energy transfer (RET) or electronic energy transfer (EET) is a mechanism describing energy transfer between two light-sensitive molecules (chromophores)." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B6rster_resonance_energy_transfer?useskin=vector
22:43 < fenn> the bridge should probably ignore EmmyNoether
23:39 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Sun Mar 26 00:00:21 2023