--- Log opened Thu Mar 30 00:00:17 2023
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00:24 < hprmbridge> eleitl> Eliezer has always been a lolcow. That so many people are taking him seriously tells you lots about people.
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00:41 < hprmbridge> eleitl> Can you run Alpaca etc. with ROCm? I see only nVidia hardware mentioned so far.
00:48 < fenn> looks like at least one person is doing it? https://github.com/WapaMario63/GPTQ-for-LLaMa-ROCm/blob/rocm/README.md
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02:02 < hprmbridge> eleitl> docl: r/r/Collapse has gone to shit a very long time ago. You might find /r/CollapseScience more useful as a paper dump, there is also a wiki, not sure in which state.
02:03 < hprmbridge> eleitl> Luckily I don't subscribe to the “nothing is going to ever work” strawman.
03:24 < hprmbridge> eleitl> Thank you, fenn. That's something I need to try when I have less work on my hands.
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03:54 < hprmbridge> Perry> Eliezer is not only wrong, he is more wrong. He is also the de facto leader of a millenarian apocalyptic cult. It was, in fact, a millenarian apocalyptic cult before it began spreading rationalism as a recruitment technique. I use these terms literally. The inner members live in group homes in the San Francisco Bay area, are pressured into being poly whether they really like it or not, isolate
03:54 < hprmbridge> Perry> themselves from ideas from the wider world, there are inner and outer doctrines, etc. It’s a cult. It’s a literal cult. Not a figurative cult. Not cultlike. It is a cult.
04:02 < hprmbridge> eleitl> It was already a cult a short time after Eliezer appeared on on the extropy list. You could see it there being formed in real time. That it now has morphed into things you describe doesn't at all surprise me.
04:03 < hprmbridge> Perry> The whole “singularitarian“ religion was insanity. Pure insanity. it was literally “don’t create the torment nexus“. Which makes the rest of his stuff ironic.
04:06 < hprmbridge> eleitl> We agree 100%
04:10 < hprmbridge> eleitl> Speaking of the original 1993 essay, the time window was 2005-2030 https://frc.ri.cmu.edu/~hpm/book98/com.ch1/vinge.singularity.html -- so just 7 years to go.
04:11 < hprmbridge> kanzure> (eventually someone will write about how SBF was gambling with billions of dollars of customer money precisely because of an attempt to get enough money for the mission.)
04:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ((and how this directly contributed to our current economic crisis/the bank runs/etc)
04:12 < hprmbridge> Perry> EA was a splinter cult.
04:12 < hprmbridge> Perry> Is, sadly.
04:13 < hprmbridge> Perry> Soft splinter. Still splinter.
04:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> nah look at what FTX Future Fund was funding the most--- surprise, the most ethical thing to do is find the AI x-risk ideology
04:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fund
04:16 < hprmbridge> eleitl> At least Schafmeister is keeping up the MNT torch. Anyone else you're aware of?
04:16 < hprmbridge> kanzure> we will be discussing evidence of a stealth effort at our austin meetup in april
04:17 < hprmbridge> Perry> A bunch of people. Merkle and Freitas got a bunch of funding from a company in Canada.
04:17 < hprmbridge> eleitl> Great! How many people are on their teams, in total?
04:17 < L29Ah> so where do i sign an open letter in favor of accelerationism?
04:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> L29Ah: you're already in it. this is it. you are free. you can just do things.
04:18 < hprmbridge> Perry> definitionally, not enough. Actually achieving the goal, at least using mostly human brains, will take a lot of people. Though it might now be possible to take shortcuts using machine learning.
04:19 < hprmbridge> kanzure> is there some reason we should actually do a letter? it would only work if it could reach a critical mass.
04:19 < hprmbridge> eleitl> The protein fold forecast is not entirely useless, though a bit limited.
04:20 < hprmbridge> eleitl> If deep learning gets better at writing software, it could be useful in the tool bootstrap.
04:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what would you build first if you could do 1 atom/sec ?
04:21 < hprmbridge> eleitl> With full 3d structure control you'd be at self-catalytic steps very shortly.
04:22 < hprmbridge> eleitl> You'd create active centers of enzyme equivalents, without the need for folding scaffolding.
04:22 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yes but what would you build? is there anything on your short list that would be economically valuable to further finance or find the effort once achieving 1 atom/sec?
04:22 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hmm.
04:22 < hprmbridge> eleitl> You'd build a massively parallel assembly system, of course. So you're no longer limited to the rate of 1 Hz.
04:22 < hprmbridge> kanzure> why not just make normal enzymes using normal ribosomal nanoassemblers?
04:23 < hprmbridge> Perry> I would begin by building a closed tool set capable of building itself.
04:23 < hprmbridge> Perry> i’ve been thinking about this for some decades.
04:23 < hprmbridge> eleitl> If you could give me an enzyme capable of secreting an infinite cumulene strand, that would be a good start.
04:23 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yes I also want a magic replicator, but I don't have a design for one
04:23 < L29Ah> 13:18:27]<hprmbridge> kanzure> L29Ah: you're already in it. this is it. you are free. you can just do things.
04:23 < L29Ah> but muh open letters! we need some open letters for shifting public opinion and stupid bureaucrats and whatnot, isn't this how it works?
04:23 < hprmbridge> Perry> I am in favor of both direct to diamondoid and using that to bootstrap.
04:24 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what could you do with a kilometer long cumulene strand ?
04:24 < hprmbridge> Perry> why would I want one in an early stage?
04:25 < hprmbridge> eleitl> https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2014/cs/c4cs00022f -- imagine being able to write near-arbitrary structures on diamond or HOPG.
04:25 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I think making a self-replicating Anna assembler is an obviously good gold half, but I'm not sure if it is imminently feasible upon achievement of one atom per second-- you might need another product or service to fund the venture so that you can spend the extra years working on the self-replicating nano assembler
04:25 < hprmbridge> kanzure> er, nanoassembler not anna
04:26 < hprmbridge> kanzure> good goal to have, not gold half
04:27 < hprmbridge> Perry> The first thing you do, as I said, is you build a closed set of tools capable of self construction. This is not a general assembler. This is just an assembler for the toolkit.
04:27 < hprmbridge> kanzure> The toolkit construction has already been reduced to a simple sequence of both chemistry steps.
04:27 < hprmbridge> eleitl> A simple tool would be an enzyme complex synthesizing cumulene strand from simple precursors and secreting it into a fluorine-tipped carbon nanotube, on top of an STM-like tip.
04:28 < hprmbridge> kanzure> er, bulk chemistry steps
04:28 < hprmbridge> kanzure> it's too early for me. I'll come back later when I can do english.
04:29 < hprmbridge> eleitl> I need to go wrangle Satellite some more, since ChatGPT can't do it for me.
04:29 < hprmbridge> Perry> enzymes are too difficult to design, and can’t access diamondoid. There is no reason to use them. Just use SPM probes for abstraction and synthesis. It’s far simpler.
04:29 < hprmbridge> Perry> merkle and Freitas wrote enough papers that you can understand the ideas they had, which I believe I influenced to some very small extent.
04:30 < hprmbridge> eleitl> Yeah, I was answering to kanzure what you could use engineered enzymes for if we had them. We obviously don't have them.
04:31 < hprmbridge> Perry> very, very small. I did encourage them very heavily not to think about other things than diamondoid.
04:32 < hprmbridge> Perry> you want to build a lot of stuff that isn’t diamondoid. But it’s an extremely attractive bootstrap target, because it’s stiff, easy to make with probes, easy to make closed tool sets for.
04:32 < hprmbridge> Perry> and you don’t have to throw away the technology you design after you have it.
04:41 < kanzure> i don't think tooltips are going to be hard to make, the current method is bulk synthetic chemistry steps and has a total rate far higher than 1 atom/sec- but sure, making more tooltips is useful
05:01 < hprmbridge> eleitl> A multi-stage reaction has finite yield, so you're generating a wild mix of pseudorandom stuff. Whereas with MNT you'd have a DNA polymerase-like error rate.
05:01 < hprmbridge> eleitl> The end structure would be functionally the same. Of course, with a serial process you're only getting one copy. Which is why you need autocatalysis/autoamplification.
05:11 < kanzure> yeah i think the idea is to characterize the bulk reaction results and then pick which ones you want to use (it's surely not atomically efficient but it's better than nothing)
05:30 < hprmbridge> Perry> https://twitter.com/grady_booch/status/1640893020857040896
05:39 < muurkha> kanzure: what's a self-replicating Anna assembler?
05:39 < muurkha> oh, nanoassembler
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06:14 < kanzure> multiple speakers https://github.com/MahmoudAshraf97/whisper-diarization
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09:26 < docl> I'll save my pushback on the ey-hate for twitter. it's too politics-adjacent for this channel. disagree about it being "literally a cult" etc. and I know I'm probably the minority here.
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09:51 < kanzure> an early attempt at putting my manual transcripts out of business https://github.com/bitcointranscripts/tstbtc
09:52 < kanzure> this argument looks nifty: -C or --chapters: Split the transcript into chapters based on the supplied timestamps in the youtube video
10:04 < kanzure> well it's spreading.. here's the lex fridman podcast with eliezer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaTRHFaaPG8 out about an hour ago.
10:10 < hprmbridge> Perry> docl: when a group of people live together, work together, are encouraged to engage in polyamorous relationships with each other, “debug“ each other, spout apocalyptic beliefs, have the inner and outer doctrines, do not talk much to outsiders, and start talking about how if their beliefs aren’t acted on the world is doomed, one starts assuming that what one is dealing with is not a normal group of
10:10 < hprmbridge> Perry> friends, but rather a cult.
10:11 < hprmbridge> Perry> not a figurative cult. Not a “oh, look at all of those people, they’re so close knot”, an actual honest to god “you need to visit a psychiatrist for a while to recover” cult.
10:12 < hprmbridge> Perry> kanzure: spreading like fungus.
10:17 < kanzure> yeah the way you be a good cult member is you have an optimization function f(x) and you pour everything from your life (beliefs, senses, actions, behaviors, goals, all thinking, money, friendships, etc) through that optimization function and then rigorously reinforce adherence to the same f(x) in other people. been there done that.
10:18 < kanzure> some might say that this is the definition of being good and moral and without f(x) objective enforcement you are merely an unguided animal
10:18 < kanzure> but it turns out that, surprisingly, there can exist people and belief systems that you disagree with, no matter how hard you disagree with them they continue to exist
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10:30 < kanzure> something something totalizing ideologies
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11:02 < hprmbridge> Perry> Totalizing ideologies are brain viruses.
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12:10 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Without watching those 3 hours, what's the issue?
12:10 < hprmbridge> nmz787> The guy's wikipedia article doesn't help much
12:11 < hprmbridge> nmz787> This guy has been put on some pedestal or what? People look up to him?
12:11 < hprmbridge> nmz787> What's he known for actually doing? Just philosophy?
12:11 < kanzure> heh i like the idea that nmz787 has been able to avoid this for years despite us mentioning it every once in a while
12:12 < kanzure> yea philosophy mostly. wrote a lot of articles about AI being dangerous.
12:12 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Kid and dayjob and fab+farm research takes most of my time for the past ~5 years
12:14 < kanzure> it's one of the more popular sects of the singularity crowd, this one is the doom/caution/slow down side
12:29 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Seems like eliezer might be making assumptions about humans, when he's trying to compare AI to humans (like does AI care, or did it just learn to pretend to care.... Seems to me you could just replace humans and question the same thing)
12:31 < kanzure> yes, you could have humans that want to and actively work towards destroying all life in the universe
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I wasn't saying that at all
12:33 < hprmbridge> nmz787> It just seems like everything this guy says is equally valid if you find-replace AI with humanity
12:33 < hprmbridge> nmz787> (which is to say, maybe he's just blowing hot air)
12:33 < hprmbridge> nmz787> At least in the 18 minutes I've dealt with this video
12:33 < kanzure> i think even if it is possible for humans to do bad things, it doesn't mean we should stop making them. same thing with AI.
12:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Bad and good mean nothing in terms of physics
12:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Those are social constructs
12:35 < kanzure> indeed
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13:16 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://www.grc.org/volume-electron-microscopy-conference/2023/
13:16 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Volume Electron Microscopy (vEM) is a term adopted by our community to describe a set of high-resolution imaging techniques that reveal the three-dimensional structure of cells, tissues and small model organisms at nano- to micrometre resolutions. vEM techniques include Serial Block Face SEM (SBF SEM), Focused Ion Beam SEM (FIB SEM), single-beam array tomography (sAT), multi-beam array tomography
13:16 < hprmbridge> nmz787> (mAT), plasma FIB (pFIB), serial section TEM, serial section Electron Tomography (ssET), and GridTape TEM (gtTEM).
13:21 < fenn> when cults get big enough we refer to them as nations or economic systems
13:23 < fenn> there really does need to be a new science of understanding artificial intelligence, how it develops, what the issues are. i don't see a lot of that happening outside the lesswrong-o-sphere
13:23 < fenn> slapping an "AI" sticker on popular identity politics doesn't count
13:43 < hprmbridge> glenn> 'the way you be a good cult member is you have an optimization function f(x) and you pour everything from your life (beliefs, senses, actions, behaviors, goals, all thinking, money, friendships, etc) through that optimization function' - i wish i had a clear optimization function like that to live my life by.
13:43 < hprmbridge> Perry> No you don’t.
13:44 < hprmbridge> glenn> why not?
13:44 < hprmbridge> Perry> It’s a path to misery.
13:45 < docl> .t https://twitter.com/DrPhiltill/status/1641452602482393091
13:45 < EmmyNoether> 2/ A nice poster (for purchase here: https://www.designhacks.co/products/cognitive-bias-codex-poster?variant=28329927043) that classifies and organizes the known cognitive biases. These biases suck but our brain cannot do what it does without the shortcuts, so we add further techniques like peer review to manage them. // So, about AI… https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fsecb-jWAAArexy.jpg (@DrPhiltill, in reply to tw:1641451555378573312) 
13:46 < hprmbridge> glenn> also correct me if im wrong here, but by this definition, would that mean that AI systems act like cult members?
13:46 < hprmbridge> Perry> No.
13:46 < hprmbridge> glenn> like, isnt that true for how ai
13:47 < docl> basically all the cognitive biases are (or come from) narrow functions we learn for speedups, i.e. heuristics
13:47 < L29Ah> pretty sure there are innate cognitive biases
13:47 < docl> ah, didn't mean they aren't innate
13:48 < docl> but like you can learn at least some of them. like the llms learning not to use probabilities correctly under rhlf per ey's lex interview
13:53 < docl> also some stuff, I agree with phil (the other pmetzger), gets learned under computational pressures not related to learning from humans. my mental analogy is that you can have imperfect models using finite element or difference methods which are much more computable than natural physics but good enough to e.g. design a bridge
13:56 < fenn> slightly bigger cognitive bias poster https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fsecb-jWAAArexy.jpg:orig
14:01 < docl> (or 3.14 being good enough for a back of envelope calc -- even if real physics is computable in the end, it has plenty of objects defined a lot more detail than that)
14:06 < docl> so in the end I'm a bit hmm, skeptical, that we get true agi. but skeptical of that observation's practical importance because we might get something that rapidly discovers good-enough approximations really fast. it could also cache these if it has the memory to do so, or cache seeds that let it skip the harder parts of discovery
14:17 < fenn> L29Ah i heard you like open letters: https://laion.ai/blog/petition/
14:17 < fenn> .t
14:17 < EmmyNoether> Petition for keeping up the progress tempo on AI research while securing its transparency and safety. | LAION
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15:07 < kanzure> plasma FIB?
15:58 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Yeah bro
15:59 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Much higher ablation rate usually worse resolution
16:17 < hprmbridge> lachlan> https://twitter.com/nyxtelius/status/1641577416677117953?s=46
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17:17 < docl> so in the end I'm a bit hmm, skeptical, that we get true agi. but skeptical of that observation's practical importance because we might get something that rapidly discovers good-enough approximations really fast. it could also cache these if it has the memory to do so, or cache seeds that let it skip the harder parts of discovery
17:17 < docl> oops
17:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yes, and people will squabble forever about if it's true agi or not, and meanwhile you could be just using it anyway
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19:06 < hprmbridge> kanzure> rfdiffussion now available on colabfold https://twitter.com/UWproteindesign/status/1641461336386453504
19:36 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Me and fenn were just discussing earlier this week if their rosetta repo was the same thing as rfdiffusion
19:39 < fenn> another win for the cloud conspiracy
19:40 < hprmbridge> lachlan> cloud conspiracy?
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20:25 < fenn> RFdiffusion was made "free" by letting you run it on a cloud colab instance, instead of having to register to download the (proprietary) software dependencies
20:28 < fenn> or maybe i am just confused about what RoseTTAFold is
20:30 < fenn> this is indeed new within the last couple days https://github.com/RosettaCommons/RFdiffusion
20:32 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> RoseTTAFold is similar to alphafold: given a sequence, determine it's structure
20:32 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> RFdiffusion is a somewhat inverse problem: given a structure (or something to bind to, or generic symmetry), generate a sequence that folds to satisfy that constraint
20:33 < hprmbridge> lachlan> does rfdiffusion work well?
20:33 < hprmbridge> lachlan> i didn't realize we were there yet
20:33 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> Yes, we use it
20:33 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> it's still like a 1%ish hit rate
20:33 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> but that's pretty mind blowing, all things considere
20:35 < fenn> if you plug the sequence from RFdiffusion into RoseTTAFold do you get the same structure out?
20:36 < hprmbridge> lachlan> 1% hit rate as in the structures work as intended ~1% of the time?
20:37 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> I actually haven't done this, but given that RF is part of the the diffusion model, I would expect that to be so
20:37 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> RF = Rosettafold
20:37 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> Yeah. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1091204692631109732/image.png
20:38 < fenn> does RFdiffusion only give point clouds, and rosettafold is what shows the fancy ribbon diagrams?
20:39 < hprmbridge> lachlan> the ribbon diagrams are just the rendering of the backbone, yes?
20:39 < fenn> yes but the software still has to recognize "this is a helix" and so on
20:40 < fenn> i think this functionality is provided by a dependency. i'm just not sure why msnewgooty linked to this image as if it answered the question
20:41 < fenn> (pyrosetta is the dependency?)
20:42 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> The ribbon vs point clouds is just a visual thing, basically
20:46 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> but the process is outlined well in the paper
20:46 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.12.09.519842v2.full.pdf
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20:56 < fenn> so RoseTTAFold IS the denoising network inside RFdiffusion
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21:36 < hprmbridge> lachlan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK6ldnjE3Y0
21:47 < fenn> not released on july 16th the anniversary of the trinity test, somebody screwed up
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--- Log closed Fri Mar 31 00:00:16 2023