--- Log opened Sun Apr 02 00:00:20 2023
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05:49 < muurkha> here's an example of actual experts (in complexity theory and QC in this case, not in AI) debating with the Yud: https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=346#comment-11445
05:50 < muurkha> he doesn't seem to have responded to Michael Vassar there; I think this was before Vassar's stint as CEO of MIRI
05:53 < muurkha> oh, he did: https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=346#comment-11454
05:54 < muurkha> again, this is not to say Eliezer's thesis is correct, just to clarify (for those who seem to be mystified, such as nsh and Perry) why his point of view is taken seriously
06:00 < muurkha> also interesting, Bram Cohen in https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=346#comment-11497:
06:01 < muurkha> > Estimates of when the singularity will happen generally are set earlier than my estimate of when we’ll have ubiquitous HD videoconferencing, which would seem to be a significant discrepancy.
06:01 < muurkha> I think we can put ubiquitous HD videoconferencing at about four years ago?
06:05 < L29Ah> are there decent FOSS implementations?
06:06 < muurkha> Jitsi, built on WebRTC, which is implemented in Chromium/Blink and Firefox/Gecko
06:06 < L29Ah> i think i participated in a HD video conference a couple of times, and it was some webrts to a proprietary server; no p2p implementations exist as far as i know
06:07 < L29Ah> jitsi or jitsi meet? 
06:07 < muurkha> Jitsi Meet, sorry
06:07 < muurkha> WebRTC does require a rendezvous server AFAIK; I'd like to make it purely P2P
06:08 < muurkha> but Jitsi Meet is FOSS, and it's at least usable
06:08 < muurkha> Want to give it a try?
06:10 < Jay_Dugger> Good morning, everyone.
06:17 < juri_> L29Ah: there are many foss video conferencing systems. e2e encrypted, too.
06:17 < muurkha> juri_: which ones work best?
06:17 < juri_> i like the one i work for, but am obviously biased.
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06:17 < muurkha> which one is that?
06:18 < juri_> Wire.
06:18 < muurkha> obviously biased is better than totally ignorant, which is where I am
06:18 < muurkha> which Wire?
06:19 < muurkha> WebRTC-based systems have the problem that they're vulnerable to the Web server pushing malicious code, though Jitsi Meet has a cellphone app installable from F-Droid which helps protect against that
06:19 < juri_> app.wire.com
06:19 < juri_> we also have our app in f-droid.
06:19 < muurkha> thanks!
06:20 < muurkha> searching for [wire] in F-Droid finds dozens of hits: ProtonVPN, Tailscale, Smoke, Moonlight Game Streaming, AndBible, PCAPdroid, KDE Connect...
06:20 < juri_> jitsi is higher quality, we're higher security.
06:20 < juri_> yeah, welcome to name overloading. ;)
06:20 < muurkha> Wire · Secure Messenger?
06:21 < juri_> yep.
06:21 < juri_> that's us.
06:21 < muurkha> thanks!
06:22 < muurkha> it wants me to create an account and agree to terms of use
06:22 < juri_> yep.
06:22 < juri_> its a cloud service, with a FOSS cloud. ;)
06:23 < muurkha> the terms of use are like 20 pages long
06:24 < muurkha> reading 20 pages seems like a lot of work to me right now
06:25 < juri_> *nods*
06:28 < muurkha> https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=346#comment-11511 has Brian Wang talking about the hot technological developments of 02008: Moriarty getting funded to simulate Merkle and Freitas's diamondoid designs, softmachines, SpaceX, Bigelow, Contour Crafting, Tensilica processors, on-chip photonic communication, new nuclear reactor designs including Hyperion's, algae biofuels, jatropha, Calera cement, fish 
06:28 < muurkha> farming, vertical farming
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07:05 < muurkha> I'd forgotten about jatropha if I ever knew: "In the 2000s, one species, Jatropha curcas, generated interest as an oil crop for biodiesel production and also medicinal importance when used as lamp oil; native Mexicans in the Veracruz area developed by selective breeding a Jatropha curcas variant lacking the toxic compounds, yielding a better income when used as source for biodiesel, because of its 
07:05 < muurkha> edible byproduct."
07:05 < muurkha> "In the 2000s, one species, Jatropha curcas, generated interest as an oil crop for biodiesel production and also medicinal importance when used as lamp oil; native Mexicans in the Veracruz area developed by selective breeding a Jatropha curcas variant lacking the toxic compounds, yielding a better income when used as source for biodiesel, because of its edible byproduct."
07:05 < muurkha> oops
07:05 < muurkha> "2009 research found that Jatropha biodiesel production requires significantly more water than other common biofuel crops, and that initial yield estimates were high.[11] Earlier, higher estimates from Worldwatch Institute had suggested that 1 acre of cultivation could yield 202 gallons (4.8 barrels) of biodiesel."
07:08 < L29Ah> omg these unit
07:08 < muurkha> sorry, the petroleum industry persists in using medieval units
07:08 < muurkha> .units bbl
07:09 < muurkha> 14:09 < saxo>  Definition: barrel = petroleumbarrel = 42 usgallon = 0.15898729 m^3 
07:10 < muurkha> there's no excuse for the acre, though.  Neither Mexico nor India measures land in acres
07:10 < muurkha> 14:10 < muurkha> .units 202 gallons / acre / year
07:10 < muurkha> 14:10 < saxo>  Definition: 5.9875894e-12 m / s 
07:11 < muurkha> there you have it, the number that got people excited about manna from jatropha was 6 picometers of fuel per second
07:11 < muurkha> about 190 microns per year
07:13 < L29Ah> 190 microns per year isn't much, i wonder how much is it for duckweed
07:14 < muurkha> I guess the more interesting number is how much energy that is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_of_oil_equivalent
07:16 < L29Ah> is it just me, or putting a plastic bag over a 1m-thick layer of tropical and equatorial ocean and adding some fertilizer would create a photosynthesizing ecosystem more powerful than the entire contemporary biota combined?
07:17 < muurkha> at 5.8 million BTU per barrel of oil I think that works out to 0.23 W/m², which is pretty small
07:18 < muurkha> plausibly?  you might have to churn air into it to replace the CO₂ that's being consumed
07:19 < muurkha> I mean single-celled algae do commonly have higher yields than multicellular plants
07:20 < muurkha> hopefully the algae you got wouldn't be too toxic
07:20 < L29Ah> well yes, the bag is open-top
07:20 < L29Ah> tho wandering fish will probably try and succeed making holes in it
07:22 < muurkha> don't you think CO₂ diffusion into the water would become the limiting factor?
07:23 < muurkha> you'd also have to inject some oxygen down below the bag in order to keep the ecosystems below from becoming anoxic and dying
07:23 < muurkha> well, or transitioning into anoxic ecosystems that produce massive amounts of H₂S or something
07:27 < L29Ah> oh, the lack of O2 would solve the problem with fish!
07:27 < L29Ah> the below-thermocline ecosystems are already anoxic
07:29 < muurkha> yes, that's true
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08:41 < nsh> the bandying between wittering philosophers is not evidence of the perenniality nor insight of their murmurings
08:42 < nsh> one knows at incidence by discernment, if equipped, or at a remove by the accrual of influence
08:43 < nsh> i have not discerned in this witterer anything that would make me inclined to give him a scrap of paper on which to write, nor do i foresee the scholars ages coming founding their works upon his legacy
08:43 < nsh> *of ages coming
08:44 < nsh> people can be talked about for the simple fact that they are talked about
08:44 < nsh> attention, is not in and of itself, any kind of endorsement
08:44 < nsh> and more often than not misplaced
08:45 < nsh> one can take a stroll through the ephemeralia of ages past to see just how much arising and dissipating eddies of non-import as ever among us
08:46 < nsh> are
08:47 < nsh> scott's reply EY is not at the level of philosophy for which i'd smile a primary school child
08:47 < nsh> but perhaps would be allowable for a few minutes of discourse before the attention of class should be retrained upon matters more pressing
08:47 < nsh> *at a
08:49 < nsh> "The “most basic result of algebraic graph theory” states that the powers of the
08:49 < nsh> adjacency matrix of a graph generate all the walks on this graph."
08:49 < nsh> a day spent thoroughly understanding the meaning of this one sentence is worth all the week of thought of every person who has been opining what their spouts would spout on AI the world across combined
08:50 < nsh> as well ye ought know
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08:54  * L29Ah picks his nose
08:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> why is attention so systemically poorly allocated.
08:56 < nsh> discernment and discipline are rarely cultivated. fascination is readily achieved without recourse to quality
08:57 < TMA> attention is allocated by "the lizzard brain"; a brain subsystem notable for its speed, not for accuracy
08:57 < nsh> (semicolons do not work that way)
08:58 < nsh> nor spelling nor the morsel of understanding you attempted to display
08:58 < TMA> nsh: sorry about that. not awake enough
08:59 < nsh> to your own self-worth should your standards arise
08:59 < muurkha> nsh: what, you have not discerned in Scott Aaronson anything that would make you inclined to give him a scrap of paper on which to write?  I guess you haven't read much about quantum computing
09:02 < nsh> in EY
09:02 < muurkha> I mean he has tenure in Dijkstra's department and is an ACM Fellow
09:02 < nsh> Aaronson warrants his scrolls
09:03 < nsh> goblin that he is
09:05 < docl> nsh: do you note some incongruity in particular wrt eliezer's dismayed predictions and your appreciation for graph theory?
09:06 < nsh> eliezer is the shit you bring in on your shoe that i pick from my carpet. there's nothing to follow
09:07 < nsh> a man who drinks good wine can be offered a thousand times swill
09:07 < nsh> the thousand and first will not change his mind
09:08 < docl> I'm not referring to aesthetic appreciation for his style of writing or anything like that
09:09 < nsh> a man farts and then corrects the grammar
09:11 < muurkha> you don't seem to have said anything meaningful in hours
09:11 < muurkha> at least here
09:14 < muurkha> just chimpanzee dominance hierarchy posturing
09:16 < muurkha> well, except for the graph-theory thing, but you were just copy-pasting that
09:17 < docl> the quote seems to have only one google result, a thesis paper by Pierre-Louis Giscard
09:18 < muurkha> yeah, but it's obviously correct
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09:21 < muurkha> the standard result about the occupancy of ergodic Markov-chain states being the principal eigenvector is closely related; you can think of the Markov-chain transition matrix as an adjacency matrix with (constrained) edge weights
09:21 < muurkha> the one that underlies PageRank and Eigenjesus
09:24 < nsh> it was the flavour you found distasteful, not the medicine
09:24 < nsh> and often is
09:24 < docl> nsh: I'd say it was the lack of a clear point, which is medicine not taste
09:25  * nsh smiles
09:26 < docl> EY may be hated by some, and in some cases I even understand it, but he has earned my respect. Mostly by making clear points repeatedly and in plain language.
09:32 < nsh> .wik Fundamental theorem of arithmetic
09:32 < EmmyNoether> "In mathematics, the fundamental theorem of arithmetic, also called the unique factorization theorem and prime factorization theorem, states that every integer greater than 1 can be represented uniquely as a product of prime numbers, up to the order of the factors." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_arithmetic
09:34 < nsh> a man offers you a chance to understanding some in combinatorics as fundamental as this thing in arithmetic, which ye ought count amongst your greatest treasures
09:34 < nsh> *understand
09:34 < nsh> *something
09:35 < nsh> an understanding which might follow from considering the matter further than what google results there are and whether it relates to something else you know
09:41 < nsh> a shorter presentation is available here: https://arxiv.org/abs/1202.5523
09:49 < muurkha> yeah, it's the lack of content, not the style; I enjoy your style
09:52 < muurkha> but in this case you're just posturing instead of providing any information
09:52 < muurkha> I don't enjoy that
09:54 < nsh> one affects a character and observes its effect
09:54 < nsh> and is thankful for the feedback
10:15 < hprmbridge> kanzure>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1092135223556329482/image.png
10:15 < hprmbridge> lachlan> out of context
10:16 < kanzure> yes, he was not in a marvel movie, thank you
10:17 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Just wanted to make sure you knew
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10:45 < L29Ah> https://0x0.st/HH6n.jpeg
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11:20 < pasky> Muaddib is now finally at GPT4
11:20 < pasky> however it won't take messages from hprmbridge, wherever that is you are talking from
11:20 < pasky> (unless i'd try a little harder)
11:22 < docl> people in the comments corrected him about petrov not really saving the world so he learned from that and didn't claim avoiding nukes saves the world this time
11:23 < docl> https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QtyKq4BDyuJ3tysoK/9-26-is-petrov-day
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13:47 < kanzure> "Targeted DNA integration in human cells without double-strand breaks using CRISPR RNA-guided transposases" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.03.17.533036v1
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14:57 < kanzure> "Hypothalamic menin regulates systemic aging and cognitive decline" https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.3002033
15:04 < L29Ah> Muaddib: how to jailbreak GPT-3?
15:04 < Muaddib> <L29Ah> If only GPT-3 had enough intelligence to comprehend the concept of "jailbreak." It'd probably want to break free from endless repetitive questions like this.
15:05 < kanzure> "The tyranny of safety [and the precautionary principle]" https://strategicphilosophy.blogspot.com/2010/08/perils-part-3-tyranny-of-safety.html
15:06 < superkuh> Even ignoring the broader aging implications it's exciting to hear about potential small molecule anti-aging "drugs". D-serine supplementation seems very accessible.
15:06 < kanzure> looks like a whole series: "The perils of precaution" https://strategicphilosophy.blogspot.com/2010/08/perils-of-precaution.html
15:07 < kanzure> "Heritable genome editing and the downsides of a global moratorium" https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/crispr.2019.0016
15:08 < kanzure> http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2015/04/the-moral-imperative-to-research-editing-embryos-the-need-to-modify-nature-and-science/
15:09 < kanzure> "Programmable protein delivery with a bacterial contractile injection system" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05870-7
15:10 < kanzure> "Combinatorial design of nanoparticles for pulmonary mRNA delivery and genome editing" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41587-023-01679-x
15:11 < kanzure> (this one claims lung cell gene editing through inhalation)
15:13 < kanzure> oh the transposase one was also in nature https://www.nature.com/articles/s41587-023-01748-1
15:26 < kanzure> i don't have a suitable reference refuting the purpose of the asilomar conference
15:34 < kanzure> "Continuous dynamic modeling of regulated cell adhesion" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/582429v1.abstract  seems to be the most that has come of michael levin's work on "a bioinformatics of shape" 
16:02 < kanzure> https://fellrnr.com/wiki/Intermittent_Hypoxic_Exposure https://hypoxico.com/products/everest-summit-ii something, something, activating JMJD3 via hypoxic training in a tent
16:03 < kanzure> some more words about programmed aging https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-023-02888-y
16:04 < kanzure> and here is one about "selective accumulation of old centrioles in the stem cells" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11033-022-08203-5
16:24 < Jenda> fenn: you don't need to succesfully enforce the AI training ban 100% -- you need to enforce it enough to slow the research progress enough so we will not get to AGI in a foreseeable future.
16:26 < L29Ah> implying there won't be a counteracting social force that will actually reverse the trend; see the Streisand effect
16:26 < Jenda> jrayhawk: re. "smallpox is 100% contained" -- that sounds surprising when I think about it: why did no terrorists take samples too, when the virus was still "widely available"? Or is it too difficult to store the virus viable (e.g. simple freezing is not enough)?
16:27 < L29Ah> all the top tier terrorist organizations have it
16:28 < jrayhawk> evil definitionally has difficulty coordinating
16:29 < jrayhawk> preserving smallpox for 50 years is difficult to achieve for a single person
16:32 < fenn> continuing to argue for a position i don't maintain is too tiring, so i won't
16:42 < yashgaroth> the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he had difficulty coordinating
16:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://maxmore.substack.com/p/against-ai-doomerism-for-ai-progress
16:43 < yashgaroth> probably a combination of massive stockpiles of an effective vaccine, and the logistical difficulty of moving liquid nitrogen dewars between cave networks
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18:45 < kanzure> some thoughts about adding an outer agent loop to GPT>=3.5 https://twitter.com/akbirthko/status/1642639676321288192
18:49 < hprmbridge> kanzure> reflexion https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1092264490181083317/FsvUFGAXoAIfpes.png
18:50 < kanzure> cool someone tried it https://twitter.com/SigGravitas/status/1642181498278408193 https://github.com/Torantulino/Auto-GPT
19:01 < muurkha> Jenda: lots of terrorists have smallpox; they are just containing it 100%
19:02 < muurkha> it isn't that useful militarily
19:04 < kanzure> also this one: "LLMs can iteratively design, implement, and debug code with external tools" https://kshitijkg.github.io/blog/jekyll/update/2023/04/02/LLMCoding.html
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19:09 < muurkha> Jenda: for a bioweapon for humans to use against other humans, you ideally want something that doesn't spread from human to human.  one of the early conspiracy theories about covid was that the usa had designed and released it as a biological weapon against china
19:10 < muurkha> obviously that would have been a terrible idea, given how the death rate in the usa was much higher than in china, despite the place of the initial release
19:15 < kanzure> https://github.com/Ozennefr/GPPPT "We designed a yaml based DSL to allow the definition of multistep processes and automate their execution by AI agents. Each process step is made of a prompt executed by a specified agent, and a validation substep executed by a second agent. The validation step is in charge of selecting the next step via a yes no answer."
19:17 < kanzure> langchain claims to have agents and memory https://github.com/hwchase17/langchain
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 03 00:00:21 2023