--- Log opened Wed Apr 26 00:00:20 2023
--- Day changed Wed Apr 26 2023
00:00 < alethkit> ah
00:00 < alethkit> i love medical price caps
00:01 < fenn> enjoy your gulags
00:06 < alethkit> IIRC, even Singapore caps prices
00:06 < alethkit> most of you money just goes to the insurance arm of Moloch
00:06 < alethkit> s/you/your
00:08 < fenn> i'm well aware
00:09 < fenn> price caps are not the solution
00:10 < alethkit> I mean, you're not getting rid of the FDA
00:10 < alethkit> if that's your ideal plan
00:10 < alethkit> (and unless you had some sort of Hansonian IQ-gating, I wouldn't agree that it's a good idea)
00:11 < fenn> dumb people need drugs too
00:11 < alethkit> unregulated drugs?
00:11 < alethkit> I mean, if you want passive eugenics, sure
00:12 < fenn> a good start would be to eliminate the practice of exclusive licensing by the FDA. we already have a patent system (which sucks) no need to add another one
00:12 < alethkit> I guess cross licensing could work
00:12 < alethkit> But for the moment, price cap good
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00:43 < muurkha> alethkit: what's not the case?
00:43 < muurkha> fenn: howitzers are not inflatable
00:44 < muurkha> you could say "they are both likely to get blown up" though
00:47 < alethkit> muurkha: That we use different areas for linguistic ability and mathematical proficiency
00:47 < alethkit> https://sci-hub.se/https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1603205113
00:48 < muurkha> that paper seems to argue that it *is* the case
00:50 < muurkha> but anyway I think a working artificial mind that can do language well but sucks at math is a much more compelling argument than fMRI data
00:57 < alethkit> fair enough.
00:58 < alethkit> it does make LLMs useless for me though.
00:58 < alethkit> for now, at least
01:08 < fenn> no muurkha that's my point, it's not simply a pun, it's seeing a deeper meaning
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07:02 < kanzure> hmph
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08:38 < ebo011[m]> Hi
08:44 < docl> hello
08:44 < ebo011[m]> I am new here
08:46 < ebo011[m]> I'm interested in biohacking and nootropics
08:50 < L29Ah> ebo011[m]: what do you think about metformin?
08:53 < ebo011[m]> I have not tried it, I have only taken rubifen
08:57 < ebo011[m]> methylphenidate
09:03 < ebo011[m]> I don't want to lose weight
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09:25 < docl> ebo011[m]: I recently started focalin / dexmethylphenidate ER. was looking for a cheap alternative to vyvanse and adderall was keeping me up late. apparently people respond better to one branch of the stim tree vs the other
09:27 < ebo011[m]> docl: I have not tried that, I would like to
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09:29 < ebo011[m]> ebo011[m]: it's hard to get
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10:12 < docl> it's tricky to navigate, especially if you genuinely have adhd. our glorious medical economy at work. I'd suggest bringing up at your next checkup that you read online that dex / right handed molecule has less side effects and that you want to ameleorate the addiction risk somewhat by spreading the dose over time. doctors are incentivized to worry about drug seekers and uninformed patients, but if they 
10:12 < docl> believe you genuinely have adhd and want to reduce addiction risk / side effects they'll tend to be more cooperative. if all else fails, get a different doctor
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10:18 < docl> cost aspect of vyvanse/lisdexamfetamine *should* change later this year. patent expired already but they did some patent fencing wrt pediatric exemption that somehow means no generic competitor until august. bleh.
10:21 < ebo011[m]> docl: In Spain they do not sell it without a prescription
10:22 < docl> same in the US, that's why I had to get an ADHD diagnosis and talk to a doctor (all amphetamine and methylphenedate drugs are like this)
10:22 < docl> can you get rubifen without rx in spain?
10:23 < ebo011[m]> docl: without a prescription no, here it is very difficult to obtain
10:25 < ebo011[m]> ebo011[m]: but when I have I concentrate much more
10:26 < ebo011[m]> ebo011[m]: it gives me mental agility
10:27 < ebo011[m]> docl: it gives me mental agility
10:30 < docl> getting an adhd diagnosis might be the next step if you haven't already done so. I'm not sure what the process in spain is, but I was able to obtain one online during covid
10:31 < ebo011[m]> docl: It is very difficult
10:32 < docl> nicotine is an easy to get alternative here, but I didn't get great results and formed an addiction using just the gum. patch seems to be least addictive route for that
10:33 < ebo011[m]> docl: nicotine will do you almost nothing
10:33 < docl> to wean off, I got the high potency patches and cut them into thin strips. they cost the same amt regardless of dose
10:36 < docl> the interesting benefit I got was it made me less dependent on caffeine/coffee. allegedly it triggers habit and memory formation, so could be useful for that as a short term thing. but yeah doesn't seem to help much w/ mental agility and stuff. also it makes my feet cold
10:37 < docl> is modafinil available without prescription in spain?
10:38 < ebo011[m]> docl: Modafinil is also not sold without a prescription, it is also mild
10:41 < docl> I think it's over the counter in some countries. not a narcotic so less scrutinized. but still seems like your best bet is getting a prescription
10:42 < ebo011[m]> docl: It's best to get a prescription
10:44 < docl> what's stopping you?
10:44 < ebo011[m]> docl: There are also structural similarities to these substances but they are not reliable.
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10:55 < docl> I mean why not get a rx for focalin or vyvanse? have you asked a doctor for that already?
10:56 < ebo011[m]> docl: I asked him and he said no
10:56 < docl> darn. what reason did he give
10:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> There are no good sufficiently strong/good smart drugs. Many people have looked for existing drugs. They don't exist. Instead you will have to design and build one.
10:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> My definition of a smart drug is one that you take and you can then make a better smart drug.
10:59 < ebo011[m]> docl: I take other medications that are incompatible, I discussed it with several doctors
11:01 < docl> risk of seratonin syndrome?
11:01 < ebo011[m]> docl: yes
11:02 < ebo011[m]> docl: I've been trying to get them prescribed for years
11:05 < docl> darn. SS is bad news. are the other drugs failing to work? maybe you can replace them w/ an adhd stimulant?
11:06 < ebo011[m]> docl: I also take benzodiazeoins to sleep
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11:12 < L29Ah> consider melatonin instead maybe?
11:13 < ebo011[m]> L29Ah: I've gotten used to the benzos and they fit me well
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11:39 < docl> apparently you'd need to quit them to properly treat adhd without the SS risk. even without the medical gatekeepers I'd be hesitant over that one. so might be worth some loss in optimal sleep (obvs not worth it for total insomnia) as a rational trade for the mental agility. you could also suggest switching to a lower dosage temporarily on the benzos to test if vyvanse or focalin is compatible in your 
11:39 < docl> body (also at low dose to start with) then ramp up carefully while monitoring closely. (at least that's what chatgpt suggests the doctor would do, when I word it carefully not to be medical advice.)
11:41 < ebo011[m]> docl: the doctors do not want
11:43 < ebo011[m]> I have asked many
11:44 < docl> I wonder if there's a medical advocate you can hire to get around this. they're failing to treat your adhd, and that's bad medicine
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11:47 < docl> do you have an actual history of seratonin syndrome, or are they just worrying about the possibility?
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11:49 < ebo011[m]> docl: I don't know
11:50 < ebo011[m]> docl: I wish I could get it more often without a prescription
11:50 < superkuh> It's only anecdotal, but I had a freenode IRC friend die of serotonin syndrome back ~mid 2010s. Definitely not something to mess around with.
11:51 < docl> superkuh: indeed. scary stuff.
11:51 < ebo011[m]> superkuh: sorry for your friend
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12:16 < docl> kanzure: do you have any realistic leads on how a real smart drug could work? maybe add some genes from top geniuses? perhaps microchimerism is enough
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12:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I have some thoughts. It's all research though. There's one or two germline mods that could work.
12:19 < hprmbridge> nmz787> You meant focusyn? https://frinkiac.com/img/S11E02/856760.jpg
12:19 < hprmbridge> nmz787> "THIS CARBOXYL GROUP SOMETIMES CAUSES PROBLEMS."
12:25 < docl> well grimes reported getting smarter after pregnancy with elon's baby, which could be explained as microchimerism 
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12:37 < muurkha> haha really?
12:38 < docl> .tw https://twitter.com/Grimezsz/status/1631470519727063040
12:38 < EmmyNoether> Is there any research on if pregnancy/ babies can cause iq increase or neurogenesis?  I keep seeing stuff like “baby brain”/ reduced logic.  while I had that pregnant and post partum I now feel as neuroplastic/ creative as I did as a teen and v buffed intellectually
12:42 < docl> .tw https://twitter.com/Grimezsz/status/1631471084339085312
12:42 < EmmyNoether> Also less “sensitive” - much harder to get feelings hurt- stuff like that.  Curious if there’s more research and if ppl have similar experiences cuz it seems like my body is rewarding me now with a vastly improved mind.  also more empathy/ social skills/ less aspy
12:43 < hprmbridge> LucaRaido> Harry potter characters in a cyberpunk version of Mordor, the world of Lord of The Ring. Realistic, hd, 4k
12:56 < hprmbridge> Perry> Grimes posted a couple of days ago how she's cool with people doing AI pastiches of her stuff if they pay her a share.
13:16 < hprmbridge> nmz787> damnit, ChatGPT is hallucinating journal references, including fake DOI identifiers
13:16 < hprmbridge> nmz787> this thing has been trolling me every other time I chat with it...
13:16 < muurkha> nmz787_: yes, that's well-known behavior
13:16 < hprmbridge> Perry> Which model?
13:16 < muurkha> they both do it
13:17 < hprmbridge> Perry> Never say "ChatGPT". Say "GPT-3.5-turbo" or "GPT-4" or what have you.
13:17 < hprmbridge> Perry> GPT-4 is better about it.
13:17 < hprmbridge> Perry> But you never ask any of them for journal refs, they all hallucinate.
13:18 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I guess it's not 4, it's the "free" chat they provide
13:18 < hprmbridge> nmz787> well, it offered the journal reference to me to start
13:18 < muurkha> like the humans, they know enough to make up fake DOIs but they don't have many DOIs memorized
13:18 < hprmbridge> nmz787> it hallucinated the DOI after I asked for the complete reference
13:19 < hprmbridge> Perry> Use 4 unless you have good reason not to.
13:20 < hprmbridge> Perry> And don't ask the models for paper references in general, though 4 is usually much better than 3.5-turbo.
13:20 < hprmbridge> nmz787> does "use 4" mean "click Upgrade to Plus"?
13:20 < muurkha> thanks for the solid advice
13:21 < hprmbridge> Perry> Yes. It's $20 per month. $20/month is nothing for access to the most powerful AI system currently in existence.
13:21 < hprmbridge> Perry> I use it all day long.
13:21 < hprmbridge> nmz787> yeah, I have heard your "a couple burritos" schpeal a few times 😄
13:21 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I need a different account, I think, which isn't linked to my intel.com email
13:21 < muurkha> I feel like Microsoft is probably benefiting more by getting Perry Metzger training data
13:21 < hprmbridge> Perry> It depends. If you're buying the burritos in Austin it turns out to be only like 1.3 of them.
13:21 < hprmbridge> Perry> Let them.
13:22 < muurkha> Normally I would agree, though not in this case.
13:22 < muurkha> Remember they're the ones calling for regulation to stop further AI development.
13:23 < hprmbridge> Perry> Well, then don't use the system.
13:23 < muurkha> Well, OpenAI.
13:32 < docl> I rarely use GPT-4 because it caps at 25 messages and locks me out until it's been 3 hours. Very disruptive. And that's with paying the $20. Are they giving you a different deal Perry?
13:38 < docl> Also there's no real hard line between being the product and being the customer here. They aren't avoiding training on your convos just because you pay them. You give them data, and pay them, that's the deal. Worth it as an early adopter, I think. But if you want an actually private conversation, you need your own model.
13:42 < alethkit> Time to steal an entire data center?
13:57 < nsh> (you can use GPT4 as much as often as you'd care to afford at https://nat.dev/ or freely via Edge/Bing)
13:57 < nsh> (that is with a cookie from a MS account: e.g. https://github.com/acheong08/EdgeGPT)
14:00 < muurkha> can you use it freely with MacOS and no MS account instead?
14:17 < hprmbridge> Perry> if you pay for API access, especially via Azure, the deal is somewhat different on privacy. But honestly, I don’t care.
14:18 < hprmbridge> Perry> i’m not telling the thing information that I particularly worry about being publicly revealed. Longer-term, I’ll be able to run models on my own hardware. For the moment, it’s not important.
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15:17 < L29Ah> i wonder what do you people do with GPT and finding it useful
15:18 < L29Ah> care to provide some logs?
15:19  * L29Ah doesn't expect Perry and docl working as copywriters
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15:29 < docl> it can produce arbitrary amounts of content relating to specific requests. so I sometimes use it to go down a rabbit hole in learning, e.g. tell it to explain the dirac equation to me. it can produce lots of results in a consistent format (easier to sustain focus on than multiple websites / texts) and can expand dynamically on whatever I am struggling with. not always reliable information, but helpful 
15:29 < docl> for seeding my brain with a notion of what's generally thought to be known / what I need to know. it's like having a crude simulation of an expert that never gets bored with my questions or gets status anxiety over being hounded
15:33 < L29Ah> i find googling producing much more reliable information than LLMs and in a more predictable way
15:34 < docl> but like, it might not be smart in a creative way but *widely* read. and if I want a more creative answer I can switch to GPT-4. if I want more strictly accurate I can google it. the faster feedback rate is also a reason I tend to us 3.5-turbo, as I can skim and revisit.
15:34 < docl> if you google a thing, you have a lot of variation in the sources that come up. some of which are optimized to distract
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17:15 < hprmbridge> Eli> Metformin considered harmful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPdkuriBEzo
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 27 00:00:44 2023