--- Log opened Thu May 25 00:00:11 2023
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06:06 < muurkha> fenn: I don't think the idea behind common crawl did fail; they have a new dataset every two months now: https://commoncrawl.org/the-data/get-started/
06:06 < muurkha> it's not suitable for PDFs because it truncates after a megabyte or something but it's great for other things
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06:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> It would seem that Amjad is not aware of Vorick's human financialization scheme https://twitter.com/amasad/status/1661627266953252865
06:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> here are some transcripts from SynBioBeta this year https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/synbiobeta/2023/
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09:56 < alethkit> Is Amjad trying to recreate a financialized version of filial piety?
10:05 < kanzure> the vorick scheme is to use a type of funding model where the organization gets funded by selling a token, and families get funded to raise a child in a vertically integrated facility (or not-- could be outside the system), and then the person grows up and works and with 10% of their salary for the 1st 10 years of labor they buy up the tokens on the market
10:05 < kanzure> thus creating an incentive to buy into the scheme
10:08 < alethkit> What's the advantage of such a scheme wrt transactions costs as opposed to having a functioning social fabric?
10:11 < L29Ah> sounds like slavery
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11:37 < hprmbridge> kanzure> we're all slaves, man, to reality.
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15:16 < jrayhawk> there are no hard definitional boundaries between citizenship and slavery; "slavery" is a moral-affect-association term of rhetoric rather than a disciplined one
15:17 < jrayhawk> similar to "cult" vs. "religion" and "populism" vs. "democracy"
15:17 < L29Ah> sounds very usanian
15:17 < L29Ah> but yeah sure
15:20 < jrayhawk> fnord
15:26 < jrayhawk> https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/04/ethnic-tension-and-meaningless-arguments/
15:26  * L29Ah is triggered by links to SSC
15:29 < jrayhawk> fnord fnord fnord
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15:37 < alethkit> jrayhawk: I mean, one could define it as labour compulsed under the threat of force
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15:51 < jrayhawk> and how do you intend to eat without exposing yourself to the threat of force via taxation law?
15:58 < jrayhawk> in the U.S., for instance, an average of 13% to 15% of labour is compelled.
15:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what amount of education is compelled
15:59 < alethkit> I mean, one can grow their own food
15:59 < alethkit> slavery is a useful term for mutual communication
16:00 < alethkit> One can always nitpick any given word in the English language, but linguistic meaning is fundamentally based on use
16:00 < jrayhawk> on land you intend to access without exposing yourself to compulsion how?
16:01 < alethkit> With the power of friendship, of course!
16:01 < jrayhawk> yes, and "slavery" is semantically "citizenship i don't like"
16:01 < hprmbridge> kanzure> neuralink now has a human investigational use exemption https://twitter.com/neuralink/status/1661857379460468736
16:01 < alethkit> jrayhawk: Well, except for the bit where that meaning is not commonly in use 
16:02 < jrayhawk> it is the only use
16:02 < jrayhawk> your idea is that you can avoid compulsion by externalizing it to somebody else
16:02 < alethkit> kanzure: Oh, they can run experiments now! Can't wait to see the reaction of Twitter
16:03 < alethkit> jrayhawk: No, my idea is that there is a term in use to describe a given mode of anthropological relations that is useful to compare similarities across societies
16:05 < jrayhawk> okay, well, give me a definition of it that clearly distinguishes it from citizenship, then, rather than just a fnord
16:09 < alethkit> I mean, citizenship (to me) implies a degree of political and legal rights
16:09 < alethkit> there's also residency, which implies minimal political, but some degree of legal rights
16:09 < alethkit> and slavery would entail reduced (if any) legal rights
16:10 < jrayhawk> such as?
16:11 < jrayhawk> what right defines a citizen vs. a slave?
16:15 < Betawolf> slaves were not permitted to sell their labour to whomever they chose
16:16 < jrayhawk> same is true of citizens; the state restricts their economic relationships at its whim
16:16 < fenn> i'd like to point out that the reproduction-incentivizing token scheme is simply formalizing the pyramid scheme arrangement that has existed for millennia
16:18 < Betawolf> jrayhawk: the government creates some hurdles about the means, but does not in general stop citizens from getting jobs.
16:19 < Betawolf> slaves could not partake in this type of contract
16:20 < Betawolf> slaves also often had restrictions upon their personal property, but this varied in different locations and times
16:20 < jrayhawk> the state also places restrictions on your personal property
16:20 < jrayhawk> the state can also nullify contracts
16:21 < Betawolf> the state can do lots of things, the question is about what differentiates its treatment of slaves and citizens
16:21 < jrayhawk> yes, that is the qustion at hand
16:22 < Betawolf> and things like freedom of labour, freedom of personal property, democratic participation, those are differences
16:22 < jrayhawk> okay, so where is the boundary
16:25 < jrayhawk> re: democratic participation: the state can also rescind the ability to vote, and enter into treaties with no political representation. In many U.S. states, felons and children are unable to vote. are felons and children slaves? Are citizens of outlying territories and D.C. slaves for lack of representation?
16:26 < jrayhawk> Is everyone subject to the WTO a slave? the UN?
16:26 < fenn> amjad is missing the part where you get to opt out of the scheme if you want, but then you don't get the profits from your children and their children etc
16:27 < Betawolf> it seems like you want a 'if x, y, z, then that's slavery' definition, which is not a useful way to understand a concept that has been applied in multiple different specifics throughout history.
16:27 < jrayhawk> It can be useful to say "this is a form of citizenship I don't like"; its usefulness was not in question
16:28 < Betawolf> 'citizenship' is a much newer concept than 'slavery'
16:28 < jrayhawk> okay, i am fine with reversing my definition
16:28 < jrayhawk> citizenship is a form of slavery that you like
16:28 < Betawolf> why would you like citizenship?
16:29 < fenn> big guys with guns stop other big guys with guns from taking your stuff and/or killing you
16:29 < Betawolf> fenn: they'll do that if you're a slave, too, they want your stuff for themselves.
16:29 < jrayhawk> yeah, so far this form of slavery has worked out okay for me
16:29 < fenn> you get more stuff as a citizen than as a slave
16:30 < fenn> (usually)
16:30 < Betawolf> closer, but you can get a lot of stuff as a slave to a rich guy
16:33 < fenn> also amjad is missing the part where the community invests in young parents to enable them to have more children than they otherwise would have, literally investing like you would in stocks
16:47 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unincorporated_Man
16:48 < fenn> "The premise is folks selling shares in their future income.  Initial ownership is: person 75%, parents 20%, government 5% (there are no other taxes).  People typically sell 12-15% to their university, more for other early training ... They then own less than 50%, must accept majority control over their careers and locations, and try over time to rebuy enough to regain control."
16:52 < jrayhawk> i have to buy the privilege to travel abroad, buy the privilege of driving a car, buy the privilege of building houses, buy the privilege to diagnosing and prescribing medical treatments, etc.
16:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> apparently edge.org was an epstein front
16:54 < fenn> i'm shocked, shocked to hear that money was exchanged for clout
16:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> who would do such a thinf
16:56 < docl> IMO a lot of stuff is bounded mostly by factors of scale rather than what people would like to define it as moralistically. like cult vs religion (small is cult, big is religion). that's not the only distinction but generally control scales poorly and this causes some of the other typical differences (religion being less tightly controlled). the control of citizens is less tight/centralized than 
16:56 < docl> slaves, arguably also because tight control doesn't tend to scale
16:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fenn: yes it's a formalization but also a simplification where you strip out religious components to explain why you're doing the whole thing.
16:57 < jrayhawk> or, at least, scale requires a ludicrously, implausibly hard-working bureaucrat like Stalin
16:58 < fenn> i don't know any existing arrangement where a community invests in young people to have more children. is this a thing?
16:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there was something here about engineering mice that feel less pain, or poultry, like do the david pearce thing for real why not.
16:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I think organizations could be persuaded to adopt the low pain low suffering cattle stock for example.
16:58 < docl> well, doesn't the mormon church e.g. do a lot of investing in young people having children? not as a transactional arrangement though
16:59 < fenn> kanzure they'd probably rub themselves raw on cage bars or whatever
16:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fenn: also, china's fertility program should also fund fertile healthy people and give them fertility drugs. it increases the chances of multiples.
16:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Probably most improvements in fertility for the population will be coming from multiples for the foreseeable future.
17:00 < hprmbridge> kanzure> You might as well go for n+1 while you're at it.
17:00 < fenn> double is a big percentage improvement
17:00 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yes
17:01 < fenn> are twins as healthy and productive later in life as, er, singles
17:01 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twins_(1988_film)
17:01 < hprmbridge> kanzure> not like that.....
17:05 < fenn> in the movie danny devito gets the "bad genes" and arnodl schwarzenegger gets the "good genes" (despite them being genetically identical?) but in the real world there actually is such a thing where one twin sucks up more nutrients and the other is undernourished
17:07 < jrayhawk> they're canonically fraternal twins
17:07 < jrayhawk> not identical
17:09 < fenn> "5–15% of identical twin fetuses will go on to develop TTTS"
17:09 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin-to-twin_transfusion_syndrome
17:16 < fenn> ah this only happens with identical twins. fertility drugs typically stimulate follicles to release more eggs, so that wouldn't happen
17:28 < fenn> "51% of twins and 91% of triplets are born preterm, compared to 9.4% in singletons. 14% of twins and 41% of triplets are even born very preterm, compared to 1.7% in singletons." this results in bad effects like cerebral palsy, adhd, autism, and anxiety
19:23 < fenn> wow Marshall Brain turned into a doomer deathist, literally advocating euthanizing everyone at age 65. His most recent book is “The Doomsday Book”
19:32 < fenn> a lot of his argument boils down to: it would be a lot easier to just kill everyone than to fix the structural problems in our society
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21:48 < muurkha> fenn: you could argue that dowries and wedding gifts are pretty close to "a community invests in young people to have more children"
21:51 < muurkha> they don't usually get an ownership share in return though
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22:17 < fenn> honestly i could never understand the direction of money flow in dowry arrangements, and wedding gifts are mostly useless crap that does nothing meaningful
22:19 < fenn> if it's just between the families of the bride and groom, that wouldn't count
22:19 < fenn> they can only choose to invest in some of their children more than others, which isn't much of a choice
22:20 < muurkha> money flow in dowry is from bride's parents to the new nuclear family unit
22:21 < muurkha> wedding gifts today are maybe a ceremonial remnant of a custom that was important in thinner times
22:22 < fenn> would wedding gifts actually encourage people to get married that otherwise wouldn't waste time on dating?
22:23 < fenn> or whatever passed for courtship back then
22:23 < muurkha> yes
22:25 < muurkha> I mean if you move out of your parents' house it becomes difficult to use their knives, cutting boards, washing machine, refrigerator, plates, silverware
22:25 < muurkha> this makes marriage much less appealing, because it is a descent into material poverty
22:26 < fenn> woah woah woah, washing machine, refrigerator? are you saying wedding gifts were materially relevant in the 20th century?
22:26 < muurkha> yes
22:26 < muurkha> still are in places, I think
22:27 < fenn> i regularly see all of these things on the street (well, not knives) so it's hard to imagine people lacking them
22:27 < fenn> would a car be an example of a wedding gift?
22:27 < fenn> i also see those on the street heh
22:28 < muurkha> i don't think i've heard of that tradition so we're probably looking at things that date from before 01950
22:29 < muurkha> also probably if your aunt can afford to give you a car you don't need help buying a kitchen knife
22:29 < muurkha> or a dinette set
22:29 < fenn> i'm pretty sure kids cost orders of magnitude more than anything discussed here
22:29 < muurkha> not in 01948
22:30 < muurkha> i received materially relevant wedding gifts in march of this year
22:30 < fenn> just the hospital bills for maternity stuff
22:30 < muurkha> i was born at home, no hospital bill
22:30 < fenn> pff
22:30 < fenn> lucky you
22:30 < muurkha> more things in heaven and earth
--- Log closed Fri May 26 00:00:12 2023