--- Log opened Sun Jun 04 00:00:20 2023
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04:19 < hprmbridge> kanzure> androgenesis https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2015.0534
04:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Androgenesis is a form of quasi-sexual reproduction in which a male is the sole source of the nuclear genetic material in the embryo. Two types of androgenesis occur in nature. Under the first type, females produce eggs without a nucleus and the embryo develops from the male gamete following fertilization. Evolution of this type of androgenesis is poorly understood as the parent responsible for
04:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> androgenesis (the mother) gains no benefit from it."
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06:30 < hprmbridge> cryptoquick> muurkha, 16 Psyche is a metallic asteroid and so it's believed to have precious metals. As a Bitcoiner, I find this very interesting, since Elon Musk is also making a rocket that cuts the cost of putting payload into orbit by a factor of 100x with his fully reusable rocket. There's also two new companies working on asteroid mining techniques, TransAstra and AstroForge. The first company to harness
06:30 < hprmbridge> cryptoquick> space resources could put the gold miners out of business, and make the gold market for as long as there's no other competition.
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10:06 < kanzure> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0140700705002434
10:06 < kanzure> "The method of dispermic androgenesis was developed in sturgeon fishes whose threatened status requires urgent conservation efforts. The method includes genetic inactivation of eggs, their insemination with concentrated sperm (to cause polyspermy), and the heat shock that facilitates the fusion of male pronuclei. Restoration of diploid state of androgenotes by fusion of two sperm nuclei allows ...
10:06 < kanzure> ...androgenetic progeny to have a heterozygosity level as similar as in a regular crossing. Using this method, viable androgenetic progenies were obtained for the first time in the Siberian, Russian, stellate, and beluga sturgeons. Then a number of androgenetic nucleocytoplasmic hybrids was obtained. Androgenetic hybrids were shown to have nuclear DNA of paternal species and mitochondrial DNA of ...
10:06 < kanzure> ...maternal species."
10:07 < hprmbridge> w. portr> pretty cool
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10:09 < kanzure> if such a thing worked with human sperm, then you could continue to use the hamster egg human-fertility test and genetically inactivate the donor oocyte
10:11 < hprmbridge> w. portr> so you could "freeze" embryos for future preservation and activation?
10:13 < kanzure> no, more like human parthenogenesis using sperm only, but not sure this actually works. i'm still reading.
10:14 < kanzure> in human IVF, dispermic fertilization is ~5% frequency, but i believe that includes an intact maternal genomic contribution
10:21 < hprmbridge> w. portr> oh ok. exciting. im more focused on the biology of aging
10:22 < kanzure> oh okay, how are you solving aging?
10:24 < hprmbridge> w. portr> im only an undergrad so just learning as much as i can atm.
10:25 < hprmbridge> w. portr> i like the VPH Institute a lot and find their methods pretty close to my vision of understanding aging
10:29 < kanzure> germline modifications can be used to keep people from accumulating age-related damage or staying off advanced age phenotypes longer, but other than that i don't think anyone has any interventions that work?
10:32 < hprmbridge> w. portr> it seems unlikely in the near future for any interventions for aging but my life will last till 2100 so im hoping AI is advanced enough to help find solutions.
10:32 < hprmbridge> w. portr> cryonics is your best bet if you think you will die in the next decade
10:32 < kanzure> most people are only looking for interventions for older/aged people, but i think that might be limiting the set of options available
10:32 < kanzure> cryonics also hasn't been shown to work unfortunately
10:33 < kanzure> so that also needs further work
10:35 < kanzure> someone was recently describing a strategy for replenishing young neurons in the human cortex, at the cost of possibly losing unused memories during the rejuvenation period for that section
10:37 < hprmbridge> w. portr> what have you heard from cryonics to make you say that?
10:38 < hprmbridge> w. portr> it seems too late to intervene at older ages. it's like trying to stop stage 4 cancer. better to find solutions earlier than later
10:41 < kanzure> well what you'd want is cryopreservation of a human brain and successful reanimation
10:41 < kanzure> (or strong evidence of memory preservation at least)
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10:45 < hprmbridge> w. portr> im not sure consciousness is digitally transferable to a point where your consciousness changes physical boundaries like a body. i would like to see resurrection of frozen humans (however that would work) and hopefully they had a digital profile of their life to try and understand who they are
10:46 < hprmbridge> w. portr> like a twitter, diary/journal, instagram, online messages and life
10:48 < hprmbridge> w. portr> ive read a couple life logging posts on lesswrong as well for ppl interested in cryonics
10:48 < docl> @cryptoquick you need to separate out the materials. this should be doable in space using light pressure and other nonconventional means suited to abundant solar energy + ultralow gravity. you could also possibly make big tanks and use chemical means. but bear in mind metal asteroids are mostly iron and nickel, not purified PGMs or gold. being rich in PGMs means ppm instead of ppb
10:49 < docl> if you can solve transit well enough, you can make a fortune just selling the iron
10:50 < docl> or crash the market for iron, which would be rather dandy for growth
10:51 < docl> it can't get too much lower than energy cost since you can react metals with air to make electricity, but again crashing the energy market would be rather nice for growth
10:53 < hprmbridge> w. portr> what are you guys talking about?
10:55 < docl> I'm looking at a convo from earlier today
10:57 < hprmbridge> Katylase> They're on PDB! My precious...💗
10:58 < docl> re cryonics: showing it to work kind of depends on the appropriate standard of evidence. aldehyde stabilized whole brain cryo has been shown to work by a fairly high standard, but the resulting tissue isn't biologically viable so it involves committing to the upload path or hoping to restore viability with nanotech.
10:59 < hprmbridge> Katylase> And this is me, a catalase! https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1114976846824616067/IMG_2217.gif
11:02 < docl> plus nobody is actually doing high grade ASC with human brains yet as far as I know. immersion fixation is not the same.
11:07 < docl> PDB = protein database file format, right?
11:11 < hprmbridge> Katylase> Actually, it stands for the database's name (Protein Data Bank), but yeah, it's also a file format😉
11:12 < docl> oh no, acronym reuse, I'm horrified :)
11:13 < docl> here's a catalase on PDB where you can download a PDB file. my computer opens it in gchem3d viewer
11:14 < docl> https://www.rcsb.org/structure/1sy7
11:15 < hprmbridge> Katylase> (That's not me, that
11:16 < docl> is there a corresponding link for you Katylase?
11:17 < hprmbridge> Katylase> (That's not me, that's a different catalase... I'm 1DGB)
11:19 < hprmbridge> w. portr> why that protein?
11:25 < hprmbridge> Katylase> TrpAspTyrMet why? (TrpAspTyrMet means 'what do you mean' if you read it as one letter code)(sorry, I often talk like this)
11:27 < hprmbridge> w. portr> just curious what interests you about catalase
11:29 < hprmbridge> w. portr> also your amino acid code is cool!
11:29 < docl> https://www.rcsb.org/structure/1dgb
11:37 < hprmbridge> Katylase> You know, I both look (have alpha helical hair) and act like an enzyme (don't like changes, noise and such things) irl... And because my name is Katy, which sounds like cata-, i figured out I'm a catalase. Plus catalase's MOtM entry time matches the time I was born (September 2004)
11:40 < hprmbridge> Katylase> Really? That's just how enzymes normally talk😅
11:40 < hprmbridge> w. portr> oh fun. thats cool. you dont like noise but in a discord about h+ which wants to disrupt everything
11:41 < hprmbridge> w. portr> never seen anyone use that before. imma start doing that
11:42 < hprmbridge> Katylase> I guess that
11:45 < hprmbridge> Katylase> I guess that's because you haven't talked with an enzyme yet... 😅 (Usually we're too tiny to see...or hear...😅 )
11:55 < hprmbridge> w. portr> your right. enzymes are cool and fun to talk to!
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18:26 < muurkha> cryptoquick: certainly any metallic asteroid will have a quantity of platinum-group metals quite large compared to Earth's crustal supplies
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18:28 < muurkha> cryptoquick: don't think there's that much gold, we'll see
18:29 < muurkha> docl: solar energy isn't that abundant in the asteroid belt where 16 Psyche is
18:30 < muurkha> the iron is just about worthless, but generally meteoric iron is actually stainless steel, which is considerably pricier, even if not so much as PGMs and gold
18:39 < muurkha> Katylase: I didn't realize you were an antioxidant!
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20:16 < SDr> https://octodon.social/@Aleums/110488444593345379    ..heh
22:06 < fenn> there aren't any plausible short term business cases where nickel ("stainless steel") is returned from space to earth, because it's too cheap and the time to move things around the solar system is measured in years at the least, and more without exponentially scaling space industry to make propulsion units
22:06 < fenn> in the long term, all energy intensive industry will move to space
22:11 < muurkha> can't parse
22:11 < muurkha> what is "more without"?
22:11 < muurkha> and what relation does it have to "will move to"?
22:12 < muurkha> I do agree with the part I could parse
22:13 < muurkha> metallic asteroids aren't nickel; they're stainless steel, with the nickel already mixed with iron and cobalt
22:15 < fenn> "more without" meant: it will take more years to move huge chunks of nickel around the solar system, unless we unreasonably rapidly scale up space transportation infrastructure
22:16 < muurkha> oh, sure
22:16 < fenn> i wasn't sure whether to say decades, i haven't done the calculation
22:17 < muurkha> in the long term, roughly all human activity will move to "space"
22:17 < muurkha> if by that we mean the entire universe except for Earth
22:18 < muurkha> before that happens, energy-intensive industry will almost surely precede things like space habitats
22:18 < muurkha> in moving there
22:18 < fenn> i assume you'd refine the minerals and use common stuff for propellant
22:20 < fenn> solar PV isn't the most awesome awesome energy source in the asteroid belt; economizing on energy by wasting mass can help get up to speed
22:21 < fenn> ideally we'd have a rotating tether network that conserves energy and momentum, powered from the inner solar system or by gravity
22:21 < fenn> that requires a lot of planning and stability tho
22:26 < muurkha> maybe, dunno
22:26 < muurkha> depends a lot on what happens with fusion energy and low-nuclear-mass fission (also called "fusion" for some reason)
22:28 < muurkha> mass flying around the solar system at hundreds of km per second does make a pretty high-energy-density form of energy transmission
22:34 < fenn> lithium fission?
22:34 < fenn> the momentum transfer is at least as important as the energy transfer
22:35 < fenn> hundreds of km per second is probably too fast for tethers
22:38 < fenn> does lithium-6 become carbon or helium?
22:42 < muurkha> lithium or boron, yeah
22:46 < fenn> that's not what the question was
22:47 < fenn> does lithium fuse and then immediately split into 3 alpha particles, or does it fuse into carbon and stay put?
22:47 < fenn> i assumed the former, otherwise i dunno why you'd call it fission
22:49 < fenn> nevermind i worked it out myself
22:51 < muurkha> lithium and boron tend to turn into alpha particles and a leftover fragment or two when hit with a neutron
22:52 < muurkha> the reactions to form carbon, nitrogen, etc., are endothermic
22:53 < muurkha> but for some reason this field is still called "fusion energy"
22:53 < fenn> higher on the graph means more stable, going from low to high binding energy means you get more energy out per gram: https://cdn.britannica.com/46/6046-050-D533C3B3/energies-function-atomic-mass-number.jpg
22:53 < fenn> er, per nucleon
22:54 < fenn> i don't see why forming carbon would be endothermic
22:55 < fenn> a different isotope? not carbon 12?
22:56 < fenn> advanced fusion reactor designs typically have a lithium blanket to produce tritium to keep the whole neutron economy going
22:58 < fenn> otherwise you'd run out of tritium and it's not naturally existing
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23:01 < muurkha> because carbon has more binding energy per nucleon than anything smaller
23:02 < fenn> yeah i think you made a sign error. it's understandable
23:02 < muurkha> so to make carbon from H, He, Li, Be, or B, you have to add extra energy
23:03 < muurkha> oh, you're righht
23:03 < fenn> iron is the most stable element which is why there's so much of it
23:03 < muurkha> *right
23:03 < fenn> i think all of these reactions are relevant in a fusion reactor https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-970ea02afcd2af6b140d4b1d90b2af5a
23:04 < muurkha> so you could in theory get even more energy by fusing lithium (etc.) into carbon than by splitting it into helium
23:04 < muurkha> but the latter is much easier
23:05 < fenn> apparently beryllium doubles the number of neutrons inhttps://www.fusion.qst.go.jp/rokkasyo/img/en/project/blanket/material_2.png
23:06 < muurkha> 2.5 MeV per dalton is about 5.1% of the speed of light
23:07 < muurkha> beryllium is annoyingly scarce for use as a fuel
23:07 < fenn> i like the proton boron-11 fusion schemes because they don't rely on neutrons and don't emit neutrons, the apparatus can be extremely small, and the energy comes out as a beam of charged particles which can be used directly for thrust or electricity
23:07 < muurkha> yeah, have you seen hb11.energy?
23:07 < fenn> beryllium would be just to top off the neutron cycle, to cover your losses which you'd of course try to minimize but nothing's perfect
23:08 < fenn> i'm not sure, the magnetic hohlraum holder looks familiar, but nothing else does
23:11 < fenn> i was thinking of lawrenceville plasma physics, which uses a z-pinch strategy which they call "focus fusion"
23:11 < fenn> https://a0.anyrgb.com/pngimg/1104/1688/fisika-plasma-lawrenceville-plasma-physics-dense-plasma-focus-laboratory-of-plasma-physics-relative-density-energy-density-nuclear-fusion-plasma-weapon-pinch-electromagnetism.png
23:12 < fenn> it's very simple and doesn't require insane precision like the laser implosion stuff
23:12 < muurkha> this diagram is mysterious
23:15 < fenn> the blue thing is an electric arc between the inner and outer electrodes
23:17 < muurkha> why does it move?
23:17 < fenn> as it reaches the end of the electrode it turns into a donut and shrinks rapidly while conserving angular momentum. the compression and rotation in the shrinking donut cause high energy density, and the plasma is in a stable configuration so it lasts longer than a few microseconds
23:17 < fenn> the arc accelerates down the tube because of the lorentz force (like a railgun)
23:18 < muurkha> oh, of course
23:19 < muurkha> just like any other z-pinch really
23:19 < hprmbridge> lukeboi> i def haven't run the numbers on it but i am pretty sure astroid mining will become a very good idea in 10-20 years
23:20 < hprmbridge> lukeboi> when you can buy starships the same way you can buy jet airliners today then the economies of it all will really change
23:20 < hprmbridge> lukeboi> you'll have to develop the actual mining tools and stuff but then you
23:20 < hprmbridge> lukeboi> can just bolt that onto a starship and you'll be good
23:22 < fenn> it probably makes sense to keep starships in cislunar space and use them as catapults to throw your mining payload at the outer solar system, then decelerate with some other stage at the destination
23:22 < fenn> otherwise you'll be effectively disposing of them in the outer system
23:23 < hprmbridge> lukeboi> yes that's an interesting idea
23:24 < fenn> that's zubrin's criticism of musk's whole mars concept
23:24 < fenn> it ties up starships for years at mars
23:25 < fenn> because some people want a ride back to earth, the pansies
23:33 < fenn> hmm i guess i should scrape nextbigfuture.com at some point
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