--- Log opened Mon Jun 12 00:00:28 2023
00:02 < fenn> i'm surprised the foresight WBE 2.0 roadmap doesn't include more about brain organoids
00:02 < fenn> that workshop notes document
00:03 < fenn> i'm not happy to see "Lobby against AI with mind uploading carve-out" in there
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05:22 < fenn> reddit has decided to shoot itself in the face and poison the well for the rest of humanity
05:23 < fenn> or at least some mods have made this decision for the users of their subreddits
05:23 < fenn> the result is that the internet is worse now
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05:37 < hprmbridge> kanzure> probably because they want to monetize user text for training data
05:39 < hprmbridge> w. portr> i deleted reddit 2 days ago. this decision was bound to happen.
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05:49 < hprmbridge> w. portr>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1117797862059823144/man_walking_through_wyoming_https_runway_datasets_s3_amazonaws.mov
06:04 < fenn> w. portr, i notice you are using discord
06:05 < hprmbridge> w. portr> in a lot of discords. are you on the live chat?
06:05 < fenn> whoosh
06:07 < fenn> network effects are a bitch
06:08 < hprmbridge> w. portr> just recently joined. fell into a self indulging urge to read more about aging and the diyhplus was a great source of info
06:10 < fenn> getting everyone on the same chat platform is like brokering peace in the middle east, but it's technically possible to hamfistedly jam multiple protocols together, which is what we've done
06:12 < hprmbridge> w. portr> the urbit people rly hate discord for this reason although they are more extreme and dont solve the problem.
06:12 < fenn> my point was that discord is a centralized proprietary walled garen with arbitrary censorship, and could betray their userbase at any time the same way the reddit company and reddit mods have
06:13 < hprmbridge> w. portr> same with all centralized social networks
06:13 < fenn> i just want something to last
06:14 < hprmbridge> w. portr> i get your point. i am a fellow digital nomad.
06:14 < fenn> NNTP never got arbitrarily deleted
06:15 < fenn> it just makes me sad
06:15 < fenn> all this effort people put in, and then it's just gone
06:15 < fenn> and then they burn the corpses
06:17 < hprmbridge> w. portr> its ironic bc the founder of reddit liked crypto and decentralization
06:18 < fenn> the current ceo is one of the reddit co-founders
06:18 < hprmbridge> w. portr> are you trying to save all your data or something?
06:18 < fenn> um, yeah
06:18 < hprmbridge> w. portr> doesnt rly bother me
06:19 < fenn> are you an atheist or do you think there's some bearded space alien that will save all your data for you?
06:19 < hprmbridge> w. portr> 6.9/7 on the dawkins scale
06:20 < fenn> do you want to live forever?
06:20 < hprmbridge> w. portr> .1 bc we might live in a simulation and if we do, the creators above us are technically gods in the current way we use that word
06:20 < hprmbridge> w. portr> i would like to. i am young, studying biochem and trying to research the biology of aging
06:20 < hprmbridge> w. portr> also saving up for cryonics atm
06:21 < jrayhawk> i don't see what distinguishes discord from an IRC network other than some protocol shimming
06:21 < hprmbridge> w. portr> i am very secular transhumanist
06:21 < fenn> but you don't care about data preservation. don't you see the contradiction?
06:21 < hprmbridge> w. portr> for profit
06:22 < hprmbridge> w. portr> yea but i have letters and videos
06:22 < fenn> jrayhawk i have logs, and server admins can't retroactively delete content they don't like from my logs
06:22 < jrayhawk> irc networks delete everything
06:22 < fenn> yes, instantly
06:23 < fenn> is there some built in way to download a discord server? i haven't really looked into it
06:23 < hprmbridge> w. portr> i dont see the value in saving these convos in 500 years
06:23 < jrayhawk> what do you mean? history download is part of their API
06:24 < hprmbridge> w. portr> havent looked into discord software at all
06:24 < fenn> w. portr did you know that in alaska they feed stacks of fresh salmon the size of wood piles to dogs because it's cheaper than gasoline for a snowmobile
06:24 < fenn> the same things are valued differently at different times and places
06:25 < hprmbridge> w. portr> now i know
06:25 < hprmbridge> w. portr> isnt alaska holding the largest oil reserves?
06:26 < fenn> the salmon is really cheap
06:28 < hprmbridge> w. portr> i get your point. im more focused on school and prestigious accolades than data preservation
06:28 < fenn> you can get life insurance to pay for cryonics. since you're young it should be very cheap
06:29 < jrayhawk> Discord does an admirable job of maintaining backwards compatibility on their API, so it is actually pretty close to what you'd hope for from a standard.
06:29 < fenn> is nectome accepting patients yet? they're really the only cryonics company that has a technology that works as described
06:29 < hprmbridge> w. portr> not sure which life insurance would allow me to do that
06:29 < jrayhawk> i think the only data i have missed as a result of changes in the past five years has been the "thread" feature
06:30 < hprmbridge> w. portr> not sure. only heard about alcor and some place in oregon
06:30 < fenn> https://cryonics.org/members/life-insurance/
06:33 < hprmbridge> w. portr> thats pretty cool. i dont pay for my life insurance right now
06:34 < hprmbridge> w. portr> and my parents are hardcore christians and hate my ideas
06:34 < fenn> next of kin can fuck up cryonics proceedings in many ways. you'd be better off with alcor because they fight for you, whereas cryonics institute won't
06:35 < fenn> but this makes alcor a lot more expensive
06:35 < hprmbridge> w. portr> cant you just state that your final request is to be frozen and they would respect it?
06:35 < fenn> no
06:35 < fenn> once you're dead you have no rights
06:35 < hprmbridge> w. portr> i visited them once
06:36 < hprmbridge> w. portr> alcor
06:36 < hprmbridge> w. portr> bro code extends after death
06:36 < fenn> no legal rights*
06:37 < fenn> control of the body varies by jurisdiction but usually the spouse or parents are first in line
06:37 < jrayhawk> not true; executors and trustees are limited in what they can do
06:38 < hprmbridge> w. portr> just let me be frozen! its rly not that hard
06:38 < jrayhawk> you could say the dead have no recourse, but it is entirely untrue that they have no rights
06:40 < hprmbridge> w. portr> cryonics has picked up no popularity in 30 years. im not even sure if a structure will be created for it to be part of a package or something when im older
06:42 < fenn> in addition to writing a will and talking with your family, chatgpt give the following totally not-a-lawyer advice: Appoint a healthcare proxy or durable power of attorney for healthcare who supports your cryonics decision and will act on your behalf in medical decisions.
06:47 < fenn> on a practical level, the family can hold up the process long enough for your brain tissue to degrade and become useless mush
07:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> package not necessary, you just phone up alcor and ask them for their insurance people recommendations
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07:36 < docl> https://fabfoundation.org/getting-started/
07:40 < fenn> is anyone still living the reprap dream and printing printers for friends
07:43 < fenn> the problem with "fab lab" is that you have to have someone dump a million dollars on it, and a space that remains friendly for a long period of time
07:44 < docl> it's supposedly like 20k?
07:44 < fenn> lol no. i think their laser cutter alone costs that much
07:45 < fenn> some fab labs have waterjet cutters which are >$100k
07:46 < docl> they cost less than that to DIY, surely
07:46 < fenn> you can put together a very well equipped shop for $20k but that's not how fablab is prioritized
07:47 < fenn> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSOldh7H1KLJWCjBx--nzrBqBWyBcVFyB7XCxGFBqbNCqNMvejxdFD9zg_tmlog6HKBmmhql3dRTp5K/pubhtml/sheet?headers=false&gid=341525378
07:47 < fenn> Fab Lab Start up General Budget (SAMPLE)
07:48 < docl> "Note: this is for a very high end lab in a western city"
07:50 < fenn> i don't see anything very high end in the list, but then again the equipment itself is not large compared to the other costs listed
07:54 < docl> I was pondering the motivation question as I woke up this morning, and my subconscious informed me I'm motivated by looking for bargains. 10% off is a fake bargain though, needs to be 90% or more to really interest me.
07:55 < fenn> bargains for the sake of bargains are only useful if you can sell
07:55 < fenn> or if you were going to buy it anyway
07:55 < docl> yeah. I'm reluctant to clutter my environment with stuff I may not use
08:01 < docl> my parents would spend hours at the store looking for deals, which I'm not motivated by. and our home got overly cluttered. not extreme hoarder but too much for my comfort. so I shy away from deals unless something is very compact and I see a large value to price ratio.
08:39  * L29Ah still thinks about opening a hacklab in his village, but it is lots of work to build a sustainable business
08:40 < L29Ah> and today i'm not even sure i'll be in this country next year since there are law proposals that would make obtaining a permanent residence permit several-fold more expensive
08:52 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Did I hallucinate some post here about chemical induction of egg to embryo?
08:53 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Discord search for embryo or egg finds not what I remember
08:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there was some parthenogenesis stuff yes
08:55 < docl> http://sprunge.us/NljOPU
08:55 < docl> from gnusha.org/logs/2023-05-07.log
08:56 < fenn> yeah that
08:57 < fenn> gpt4 gave a "better" protocol in that it used simple chemicals
08:58 < fenn> http://sprunge.us/DnRP1n
08:58 < fenn> you can't just make an egg start growing because it's haploid
08:59 < fenn> there were also some papers about merging two sperm or two eggs
08:59 < docl> https://www.minifablab.nl/small-fablab-suite-the-10k-fablab/
09:01 < docl> "Please note this happened 6 years ago as a proof of concept, today for $10k  you can have better machines. At FAB12 in Shenzhen I even announced a $2k fully functional FabLab for education."
09:01 < fenn> https://gnusha.org/logs/2023-06-04.log "dispermic androgenesis" is not what i would have named it
09:04 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Hmm I could swear I'm remembering egg to embryo without any sperm
09:05 < fenn> surely these two processes don't have the same name. fusing two haploid egg cells, vs nuclear substitution in an egg cell
09:06 < fenn> "Retina Engrave" is not what i would name a laser cutter either
09:12 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2115248119
09:12 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Viable offspring derived from single unfertilized mammalian oocytes
09:12 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Maybe I saw it originally from Jo Zayner
09:12 < fenn> two fused eggs from the same organism would not be genetically identical to the parent, because of the random separation of chromosome pairs in meiosis
09:14 < fenn> no i remember this paper. i was reading about ways to brute force genomic imprinting
09:14 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Ok my lack of search hit was the use of oocyte instead of egg
09:14 < hprmbridge> nmz787> It is here
09:15 < fenn> https://gnusha.org/logs/2023-03-13.log
09:15 < docl> site is by bart bakker
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09:22 < fenn> hm. "retaining the second polar body, which would normally be expelled during fertilization, thus maintaining the diploid chromosome number"
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09:26 < uzkruh> Hi
09:28 < uzkruh> Anyone here?
09:29 < L29Ah> no
09:30 < L29Ah> uzkruh: is it ethical to lie to entities that don't pass the Turing test?
09:33 < uzkruh> It is unethical to lie to any conscious entity; passing the Turing Test neither constitutes nor proves sentience.
09:33 < docl> there are people here, but some can be grouchy
09:34 < L29Ah> i can't measure sentience better than with a Turing test anyway
09:35 < uzkruh> Had a question about biotech
09:36 < uzkruh> First, how long until organs grown for transplant from a person's own cells?
09:37 < L29Ah> uzkruh: depends on the organ; skin is already grown and transplanted like that
09:37 < L29Ah> more complex organs need a more complex environment to grow in
09:37 < L29Ah> there's some work on animal-derived and 3d printed scaffolds, but it's far from completion afaik
09:38 < fenn> they did a bladder too
09:38 < uzkruh> Excellent; we're ahead of schedule, then
09:38 < fenn> no, we've been hearing hype about recellularization for over a decade now
09:40 < uzkruh> Modifying cells to create offspring from two male or two female mice has be demonstrated; one estimate said 10 years until application in humans.
09:41 < uzkruh> Uterine transplants are already possible for natal females.
09:42 < fenn> with immunosuppressant drugs
09:42 < uzkruh> How long until reproduction and the sexes are fundamentally altered?
09:42 < fenn> you can already hire a surrogate to birth a baby with IVF
09:42 < uzkruh> A cell cultured uterus would be possible in the future
09:43 < uzkruh> Eventually, total gender conversion will be possible, yes?
09:43 < fenn> there's no technical obstacle to doing cloning or other fun petri dish procedures in humans, it's all legal and quasi-religious objections
09:44 < uzkruh> What about articial wombs?
09:44 < uzkruh> They exist already, but further research has be legally halted.
09:46 < uzkruh> Another question
09:47 < fenn> i think there's still some unknowns with embryo implantation. it seems the least favorable place in the body for an embryo to grow is the uterus, anywhere else and it grows much more vigorously, drawing lots of nutrients from the host
09:47 < uzkruh> How likely is an AI Singularity?
09:47 < fenn> next question
09:47 < uzkruh> Sorry
09:47  * fenn shakes the magic 8-ball
09:48 < uzkruh> That's odd; seems almost like parasitism.
09:48 < fenn> i wouldn't want one in MY body
09:49 < uzkruh> The idea seems... highly speculative to me, and even if it does occur, it might not be soon.
09:49 < uzkruh> I could handle it, personally.
09:51 < fenn> well there are embryos that grow in dishes to a small size, and fetuses (lambs) were brought to term in something like a ziploc bag outside of the body, with medical equipment usually used for heart surgery and dialysis
09:52 < fenn> i wouldn't be surprised if a suitable host could be found for human embryos that is relatively inexpensive and wouldn't arouse suspicions (a cat, not a chimpanzee)
09:53 < fenn> there are other issues with using animals though, like viruses that wouldn't normally cross species boundaries
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09:55 < uzkruh> Hmm, I feel uneasy about that.
09:55 < docl> I wonder if an organoid based system could do it
09:55 < fenn> organoids don't have a circulatory system
09:55 < fenn> there's nothing to feed on
09:55 < uzkruh> Cultured uterine transplants seem more viable.
09:59 < fenn> with IVF they didn't wring their hands about proving it's perfectly safe, they just went ahead and did it. that would never happen in today's regulatory environment, which means that anything that is going to happen is going to have to happen illegally first, in order to get a track record
10:00 < fenn> you can't prove that it's safe until you do it. same for AGI
10:00 < fenn> what the hell do people expect
10:00 < uzkruh> I hope we get some good results out of CRISPR before it's heavily regulated.
10:01 < fenn> crispr is kinda obsolete already, now there are better tools like "base editor"
10:03 < fenn> maybe i'm making too many assumptions
10:03 < fenn> also, as a point of order, please try not to confuse the concepts of "sex" and "gender" 
10:04 < uzkruh> Are we going to see a constraining regulatory scheme for human genetic modification soon?
10:04 < uzkruh> I'm careful not to confuse them
10:05 < fenn> i don't know what you mean "soon"
10:07 < fenn> in first world countries there are endless regulations that seem impossible to satisfy, and china sent to jail the only guy who tried, after first world countries threw a fit
10:08 < fenn> in some third world countries the regulations are being written by whoever has the ear of the local authorities, who are generally clueless and will do whatever you tell them
10:08 < uzkruh> I didn't realize humanity was falling flat on it's face.
10:09 < uzkruh> Human gene mods are a moral imperative.
10:09 < uzkruh> Just like all forms of healing.
10:10 < fenn> i agree, but i'd go further and say we have a duty to improve. it also happens to be easier to enhance normal people than to fix rare mutations one by one
10:11 < fenn> so it makes sense to start with enhancement "therapies" and develop the technology that way, and then go back and fix all the bad mutations
10:11 < uzkruh> How so?
10:11 < fenn> economies of scale
10:12 < fenn> there might be 100 potential patients for your rare disease therapy, but there might be 100 million potential parents wanting an enhancement
10:13 < uzkruh> Curing all genetic disorders, enhancing basic traits (higher strength, intelligence etc), followed by inventing new organs?
10:13 < fenn> the whole idea of health is confused. i dunno
10:14 < uzkruh> Good point; a greater financial incentive.
10:14 < uzkruh> Confused?
10:14 < fenn> nobody can define health
10:14 < uzkruh> True
10:14 < fenn> attempts to do so result in absurd paradoxes like that we shouldn't give people vaccines because that alters their body from a natural state
10:15 < uzkruh> To some degree, we define health as "an ideal human form and deviation from it". But our bodies where built haphazardly by evolution.
10:16 < fenn> and some peoples' ideal form is a chrome plated space pony with prehensile penis
10:17 < uzkruh> Not sure if we should make the Penfield mood organ.
10:18 < uzkruh> While I agree in principle that highly nonhumanoid forms are worth pursuing, many modifications of that variety would be easier as vehicles, tools, etc.
10:19 < uzkruh> A centaur body, for example, is nearly like a humanoid + vehicle.
10:19 < uzkruh> Retractible claws -> knives
10:20 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Sounds too high of a basal metabolic load to me
10:20 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Why not fairies?
10:21 < uzkruh> Variant body parts are a good starting point, though
10:21 < uzkruh> Additional or extra-joint fingers
10:22 < uzkruh> Reverse-joint legs
10:22 < fenn> an extra heart would be nice
10:22 < uzkruh> Quite
10:22 < fenn> just a little backup unit
10:22 < uzkruh> Or any redundant organs
10:24 < fenn> i'd like to know what happens when humans can endogenously produce vitamin C
10:24 < fenn> it might just be all upside
10:25 < fenn> my understanding is that the vitamin C knockout was useful because it caused fat to be stored during ice age summers
10:25 < fenn> we don't have that constraint anymore
10:26 < fenn> on the other hand, it might interfere with oxidative stress induced signalling, like in exercise
10:27 < fenn> someone should try it in guinea pigs at least
10:28 < muurkha> is there an indication it was heavily selected for?
10:30 < fenn> all humans have the mutation
10:31 < muurkha> docl: DIY waterjet cutters are out of almost everyone's reach; even Ben Krasnow settled for an anemic low-pressure version that barely works
10:33 < muurkha> fenn: maybe we descend from a small bottleneck population that had it
10:35 < fenn> oh wow the vitamin C knockout happend 60 million years ago
10:36 < fenn> i thought it was much more recent
10:36 < muurkha> hmm, so did I!  Does that mean chimps also have the knockout?
10:37 < muurkha> it might be as simple as "eating leaves 4 hours a day means that synthesizing vitamin C is a waste of energy and never improves survival"
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10:39 < fenn> apes have a large number of adaptations to conserve vitamin C and make better use of it
10:40 < muurkha> oh really?  that blows my theory then
10:40 < fenn> apo(a) and Lp(a), GLUT1 transporters on red blood cells
10:41 < fenn> Glut1*
10:42 < fenn> city dwellers probably don't get enough in their diet
10:42 < fenn> i've read some crazy anecdotes about high dose vitamin C therapy
10:43 < muurkha> oh?
10:51 < L29Ah> i would argue that lifetime supply of vitC is cheaper than adjusting human to synthesize it
10:52 < L29Ah> we could also add photosynthesis but come on, converting sunlight to energy is better done outside
10:52  * L29Ah hugs his jar of ascorbic acid
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11:07 < fenn> it's a matter of degree, 1 mg/kg vs 200 mg/kg
11:07 < fenn> sure humans are alive, but maybe wound healing and physical prowess isn't so great
11:08 < fenn> there's a limit on how much you can absorb orally
11:10 < fenn> also variability probably matters a lot
11:10 < fenn> animals produce more when stressed or injured
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11:23 < muurkha> L29Ah: you can't carry a lifetime supply of vitamin C in your backpack with you, much less to prison
11:23 < L29Ah> muurkha: yeah indeed that limits me in my occupations somewhat
11:23 < muurkha> you've already had to flee your home once because of political bullshit
11:24 < muurkha> unlike most "survivalists" who boast online about their "bug out bags"
11:24 < muurkha> what do you wish you had brought with you?
11:26 < L29Ah> it wasn't fleeing in the survivalist sense, it was prompt relocation, so i grabbed most of really useful things
11:27 < L29Ah> forgot my lifetime selenium supply tho and this is kinda sad
11:28 < muurkha> how long did you have to plan?
11:29 < juri_> L29Ah: good on you for getting out.
11:29 < muurkha> I understand you didn't trudge through the wilderness until reaching a more hospitable jurisdiction, of course
11:30 < muurkha> but an unexpected war leading to your country prohibiting emigration so it can send you to your death seems like the kind of thing survivalists would claim to worry about
11:31 < muurkha> (although an awfully large fraction of very online survivalists are US veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions so they're pretty gung-ho in favor of specifically being soldiers and fighting in wars)
11:32 < L29Ah> muurkha: basically grabbing some tickets that aren't insanely expensive due to the sudden demand surge and waiting
11:32 < muurkha> L29Ah: a few weeks?
11:32 < L29Ah> had to fly around half of eurasia
11:32 < L29Ah> yeah two weeks
11:33 < L29Ah> still spent on them about $2k iirc
11:33 < muurkha> were there relevant other things besides travel tickets that had become scarce or expensive?
11:34 < L29Ah> not really
11:34 < muurkha> assuming you mean USD and not 2000 roubles or Argentine pesos or something
11:34 < L29Ah> ah, friendly airspace and hospitable states was (and is) becoming scarce
11:34 < L29Ah> yes USD
11:35 < muurkha> so in a lot of ways, although it's the scenario "survivalists" claim to worry about, the actual difficulties that resulted weren't very closely related to the difficulties you experienced
11:35 < muurkha> would you be better off now if you'd stayed?
11:35 < L29Ah> most of my difficulties are legal ones
11:35 < L29Ah> idk
11:35 < L29Ah> could have been conscripted and sent to death
11:35 < L29Ah> if unlucky
11:36 < muurkha> yeah, but the incidence of that is still pretty low
11:36 < muurkha> and I'm guessing you're over 40?
11:36 < muurkha> how is bureaucracy in .me?
11:37 < L29Ah> exists
11:37 < muurkha> I mean, I'm guessing that's the source of the legal difficulties?
11:38 < muurkha> (sorry for all the prying questions, I'm in a slightly similar situation myself)
11:39 < L29Ah> yeah; the hurdles for letting .ru citizens in is among the light ones here compared to the rest of europe, but there are some laid-back ("polako") and nationalist vibes here that make it kinda annoying as is, and it can become much worse
11:40 < L29Ah> imagine having to physically be in a line for 20 hours to be able to submit your docs
11:41 < L29Ah> for example, the local interior ministry department doesn't care and won't expand their manpower despite the hugely increased load that goes on since the fun started
11:43 < L29Ah> gladly people who don't want to settle yet can opt out of this hell by using "visa runs" every month, so the load self-limits itself somewhat, and i have to stand 20h in the line, not 200h
11:45 < L29Ah> so far there are two options for having an opportunity to acquire a permanent resident status: having a business (that pays some minimal taxes) and marrying a citizen; i've grabbed the first one, and so far this means paying about ~1k€ a year in taxes and accountant services
11:46 < L29Ah> my fren strives for the second one, but failed to find a "bride" in a year so far
11:47 < muurkha> yeah, I've had to physically be in government lines for more than 10 hours only twice in my life
11:47 < muurkha> it sucks
11:49 < muurkha> actually the first time almost everybody else in line was a local homeless person who'd been hired as a paid line-sitter that night for a lawyer who would come and take their place in the morning, fresh from a night's sleep in a comfortable hotel
11:49 < muurkha> I was tempted to smash their faces when they showed up, but restricted myself to arguing with them a bit
11:49 < muurkha> given that they were lawyers, that was if anything an even worse idea
11:50 < muurkha> 1k€ a year sounds extremely cheap.  are you mostly getting revenues from local citizens or to folks abroad?
11:50 < muurkha> *from folks abroa
11:51 < L29Ah> mostly from abroad
11:51 < muurkha> after living in Argentina for 17 years I think I would probably just hire a paid line-sitter myself if I were in that situation again
11:52 < muurkha> I am now one of those people whose faces I wanted to smash
11:52 < muurkha> but probably that isn't an option in your case
11:52 < L29Ah> that is an option that i use in fact
11:52 < muurkha> heh
11:53 < L29Ah> there's a small industry of assistents that try to deal with most of bureaucracy for you
11:53 < muurkha> I think to a significant extent the reason Argentina is a worse place to live than the US is the ubiquity of petty corruption like that.  though the previous experience I'm referring to was in fact in the US
11:53 < muurkha> it's just unusual in the US
11:54 < L29Ah> there's plenty of petty corruption in .me as well
11:54 < muurkha> where the corruption is mostly larger in scale
11:54 < L29Ah> doesn't impact me in a bad way i think
11:54 < muurkha> yeah, I have the impression that most of Eastern Europe is quite similar to .ar in that way
11:54 < muurkha> the impacts are more sort of spread out
11:55 < muurkha> there are a lot of things people do in the US that are just impossible here, like mail-order catalogs and tool lending libraries
11:55 < L29Ah> 20:50:50]<muurkha> 1k€ a year sounds extremely cheap.
11:55 < L29Ah> living in .ru was free for that matter
11:55 < muurkha> maybe Burning Man
11:56 < muurkha> also at-will employment
11:56 < muurkha> I sure wish I had some at-will employment right now
11:57 < muurkha> I mean in a sense like a third of employment in .ar is at-will, but it's illegal, which changes the equation a lot
11:58  * L29Ah was "employed" illegally for the last ~9 years and is happy about the fact
11:58 < muurkha> yeah, I've done that a lot too, but I'm trying to rent a new apartment now
11:58 < muurkha> and it's pretty inconvenient to not be able to demosntrate an income
11:58 < L29Ah> do you need to prove anything to the rentee?
11:59 < kanzure> this is boring
11:59 < muurkha> and that kind of thing is an indirect effect of ubiquitous petty corruption
11:59 < L29Ah> never encountered that anywhere
11:59 < kanzure> coul you two take this somewhere else
11:59 < muurkha> okay
11:59 < kanzure> could.
13:10 < kanzure> https://experimental-epistemology.ai/organic-learning/
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14:20 < hprmbridge> programjames> They don't give any examples of the understanding...
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18:22 < kanzure> hmph
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19:53 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Fenn how do you suggest or think the sliding inner box in this pic is constructed, in terms of wear surfaces? Just one tube steel inside another, or do you think there is (or should be) some roller bearings or wheels at least? https://kesla.com/fileadmin/user_upload/kesla/IMAGES/Kesla_40LFE_2_700x400.jpg
19:54 < hprmbridge> nmz787> The rusty looking tube piece, that's going into and out of the grey colored tube
19:55 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Someone on an excavator Facebook group quoted me $9400 before shipping and tax to design and build a stroke delimber for my 2 ton excavator
19:57 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I had been thinking to get a log splitter and either buy some grapples or make some (the guy who I mentioned was selling weld it yourself hydraulic grapples for $800)
19:59 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Found some grapple cad plans on ebay for $40
19:59 < hprmbridge> nmz787> But the log splitters all seem relatively "unprotected" in terms of the hydraulic cylinder, in comparison to that picture above
20:00 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I'm guessing the hydraulic cylinder is inside the grey tube
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20:17 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Ignore the crane portion, but here's a little better overview showing the two grapples, one on the grey tube and one on the movable rusty one https://kesla.com/fileadmin/user_upload/kesla/Kuormaimet/Kesla_40LFE_5_700x400.jpg
20:18 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Maybe the rustiness is indication that the inner tube is just dragging
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23:37 < fenn> nmz787: there are 4 dots in a square, those are probably adjustable pads made of nylatron or something tough like that. the rust makes me think it's not brass
23:46 < fenn> nmz787: there are similar pads mounted on all 4 sides. also the end of the moving tube will need its own pads. i think the two round things might be hydraulic motors to winch the moving tube in and out with a cable? not sure what that very beefy weld bead is for, maybe it's a clue
23:50 < fenn> nmz787: if you're trying to copy it, this video is probably useful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfa3Levpmm8
23:51 < fenn> oh the hydraulic motor is on the bottom
23:59 < fenn> nevermind it's not a hydraulic motor it's a rubber squishy thing to absorb the shock when the whole thing rotates and hits the end of rotational travel. so instead maybe there's a hydraulic cylinder inside the inner tube that does the pushing/pulling? then why are there bearings?
--- Log closed Tue Jun 13 00:00:29 2023