--- Log opened Sun Jun 18 00:00:34 2023
00:22 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamamoe@46.204.73.53] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:34 < fenn> possibly more interesting than the silmarillion, due out in november: https://www.orbitbooks.net/2023/04/21/the-culture-the-drawings-by-iain-m-banks/
00:36 < fenn> 'I've got rather anorakish feelings about the way the spaceships look. They're going to get it wrong - they're going to make them look like everybody else's...' An anguished look
00:52 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:55 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
01:05 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@user/superkuh] has quit [Server closed connection]
01:09 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@user/superkuh] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:16 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:23 < fenn> OpenAI was created to democratize AI and put it in to the hands of everyone. instead, they've centralized the field and now are lobbying to prohibit regular people from running code on their own computers...
03:25 < fenn> not a great role model for a trustworthy AGI
03:54 < TMA> It is clear that a search engine which was taking money for showing cellular phone ads would have difficulty justifying the page that our system returned to its paying advertisers.
03:54 < TMA> For this type of reason and historical experience with other media [Bagdikian 83], we expect that advertising funded search engines will be inherently biased towards the advertisers and away from the needs of the consumers.
03:55 < TMA> Sergey Brin and Lawrence Page -- The Anatomy of a Large-Scale Hypertextual Web Search Engine; appendix A
03:59 < TMA> But we believe the issue of advertising causes enough mixed incentives that it is crucial to have a competitive search engine that is transparent and in the academic realm.
04:03 < TMA> fenn: it seems to be the usual modus operandi. there are good intentions at first, then there are quarterly earning calls
04:04 -!- Mabel [~Malvolio@idlerpg/player/Malvolio] has quit []
04:10 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has joined #hplusroadmap
04:32 < fenn> "most of the voices trying to hold us back represent the forces that make it impossible to build better cities, better schools, new trains etc" - joscha bach
05:15 -!- Hooloovoo [~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
05:15 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:2546:63e4:b008:41ee] has joined #hplusroadmap
05:38 -!- Hooloovoo [~Hooloovoo@216.169.5.238] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> an argument for neuroscientists to do some ML interpretability work https://twitter.com/mezaoptimizer/status/1670409495061704705
07:11 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:14 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
07:18 -!- TMA [tma@twin.jikos.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
07:28 < fenn> "plus you don’t have to care about the health of your subjects!
07:28 < fenn> this won't age well
07:40 -!- o-90 [~o-90@gateway/tor-sasl/o-90] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:47 < fenn> https://finbarr.ca/llms-not-trained-enough/
07:57 -!- o-90 [~o-90@gateway/tor-sasl/o-90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:00 < superkuh> The 7B and 13B definitely were. openai stopped early on them relative to the tokens used training the 30B/65B.
08:10 < fenn> facebook*
08:10 < fenn> whoops wrong channel
08:17 < superkuh> Er, yeah.
08:17 < superkuh> Durr.
08:17 < superkuh> re: company
08:18 -!- Grabmadingdoing [~Grabmadin@50-36-166-198.alma.mi.frontiernet.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:33 -!- TMA [tma@91.219.245.39] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:51 -!- Grabmadingdong [~Grabmadin@50.36.166.198] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:53 -!- Grabmadingdoing [~Grabmadin@50-36-166-198.alma.mi.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
08:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.thespacereview.com/article/2714/1
08:56 -!- Grabmadingdong [~Grabmadin@50.36.166.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
08:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/benchtop-dna-synthesis-devices-capabilities-biosecurity-implications-and-governance/
09:45 -!- user_ [~quassel@2a01:4f9:6a:214f::2] has quit [Server closed connection]
09:46 -!- user_ [~quassel@2a01:4f9:6a:214f::2] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:11 < fenn> .t https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNfQCRzcr3o&t=4m26s
10:11 < EmmyNoether> A Leaf Made of... Meat?? - YouTube
10:11 < fenn> (the thought emporium)
10:15 < fenn> ok so he didn't actually get any cells inside the leaves, just stuck on the outer surface
10:20 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:22 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:11 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
11:11 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:15 < hprmbridge> kanzure> are there any insects that get transported in high humidity water microdroplets ?
12:42 < darsie> tardigrades, I think
12:59 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamamoe@46.204.73.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
12:59 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Those aren't insects tho, right?
13:29 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
13:32 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:51 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kRg-ZP1vQc
14:52 < docl> Carl Shulman interview. he discusses biological computers, clanking replicators
15:36 < kanzure> .title
15:36 < EmmyNoether> Carl Shulman - Intelligence Explosion, Primate Evolution, Robot Doublings, & Alignment - YouTube
15:55 < hprmbridge> w. portr> awesome pod. cool he wrote with bostrom
15:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> nah. bostrom eats people up and stops them from working on tech.
16:00 < hprmbridge> w. portr> how so?
16:01 < hprmbridge> w. portr> i saw his leaked emails from the extropians xD
16:05 < hprmbridge> kanzure> that's not what I am talking about.
16:06 < hprmbridge> kanzure> just don't think talented people should be writing philosophy articles. they should be building a cathedral of tech progress. or a bazaar. don't mind which.
16:06 < hprmbridge> kanzure> worrying about x-risk is how bostrom neutralized sandberg
16:13 < hprmbridge> w. portr> he is just discovering the future which is valid. its also fun, especially when the whole world listens to you
16:17 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what? he should be building things.
16:17 < hprmbridge> kanzure> we have enough worriers
16:38 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:41 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
16:56 < docl> he has some interesting ideas. having AI that remotely operates humans via AR or haptic feedback or some such for example. I wonder if that's possible with existing tech using human experts. put an expert in a sensor suit and let them remote operate a lower skill person in a haptic suit
16:57 < docl> that way experts don't have to move to a high rent location to have a high pay job
17:15 < L29Ah> how do i tell if we have enough worriers?
17:16 < docl> if you develop a region it's going to drive up local rents, but if everyone on site is getting manual labor wages the rents won't shoot up. makes it easier to optimize than if you have to locate a bunch of highly paid experts near the site. and the experts get to pick where they live, so they can shop on price/amenities/whatever.
17:17 < L29Ah> rents shoot up with demand, not with wages
17:18 < L29Ah> see hong kong for example where rents went up much higher than wages and manual laborers live in tiny cot-cages as a result
17:18 < docl> huh? I imagine Bangalore demands more housing than NYC, but I could rent an apartment for a lot less there
17:19 < L29Ah> demand/supply, i mean
17:19 < docl> ok why does bangalore have more supply per dollar spent than nyc?
17:20 < L29Ah> likely because it's cheaper to build there and the standards of living there are lower
17:21 < L29Ah> and not as many people want to live there
17:21 < docl> I bet it's affected by the people who don't buy at high prices because they can't afford to
17:21 < L29Ah> nyc is among the planet-wide attractors for people of sorts
17:22 < L29Ah> because of its economy and polity
17:22 < docl> yeah but if you can't afford NYC you might be able to afford Bangalore
17:22 < L29Ah> if you want to build an enterprise that demands lots of workforce in one place, it will get a real estate price surge regardless of the competencies of the meatbags you hire
17:23 < fenn> john mccarthy proposed the exact opposite scenario - third worlders manually teleoperating cleaning robots in new york city apartments because AI wasn't good enough yet
17:23 < docl> not as much if they are replaceable low-skill labor vs top-tier experts
17:23 < L29Ah> if you live in bangalore and hire a meatbag in nyc, you have to support both your own bangalore meatbag-life and (at least a part of) your hired nyc meatbag
17:24 < L29Ah> low-skill labor wants nice things as well, they won't live in cages w/o a good reason, like good payment and/or good career opportunities
17:24 < docl> I reckon experts would prefer to live somewhere lower demand so they can keep more of their wages
17:26 < fenn> everywhere will become high demand
17:26 < fenn> it's already happening
17:26 < L29Ah> i recommend taiga
17:26 < L29Ah> very low demand
17:27 < L29Ah> also subtropical oceans are great
17:29 < docl> it's relative. no need to move to the wilderness to find places cheaper to rent than NYC (or bangalore, for that matter). you can have a hospital and supermarket within 20 minutes without being at the city center of a huge metro
17:30 < L29Ah> it's not like people only want supermarkets and hospitals
17:31 < L29Ah> i really miss my megacity after moving to a 10kppl town despite having a hospital and supermarket within 20 minutes
17:39 < muurkha> I wish I could get a tiny cot-cage
17:41 < muurkha> what do you miss about megacities?
17:50 < docl> hiring a meatbag in NYC wouldn't make sense. hiring one in bangalore might. hiring one working on a mining project in middle of nowhere Arizona would make more sense.
17:50 < L29Ah> muurkha: acessibility of any obscure part/material within 2h, wide availability of 24/7 services, prompt delivery for most of goods, very high variety of people and offline communities, great internet access options
17:50 < L29Ah> docl: what would you do in the middle of nowhere?
17:52 < docl> mine stuff. build stuff to mine with. like I just said.
17:53 < L29Ah> seems like i'm completely missing the point; {well past the ,}time to sleep
17:53 < docl> have a good night
18:05 < muurkha> I see, thanks
18:10 < docl> another thing about having an expert remote control your body 8hrs/day is you'd likely pick up some skills passively as muscle memory. so it could allow expertise to diffuse through the population faster.
18:15 < docl> (control in the sense of being paid to voluntarily react to a stimulus they create, not like mind control / bodyjacking. likely delivered as a vibration against your skin)
18:19 < muurkha> mmm, meatbags, my favorite
18:20 < docl> I bet haptic feedback would work great for military drills like marching in formation. totally bypass the verbal/visual layer. recruits could march in silence. add AR and they could march together in empty fields anywhere in the world
18:21 < docl> you don't need an expert controller for that though. just calculate the optimal moves from the suit network.
18:22 < docl> maybe an easy entry productive use would be among automotive mechanics
18:27 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
18:52 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
18:52 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:46 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Just ordered nebula 30x, thanks jrayhawk... $175 and google pay, was done ordering in a few seconds
19:47 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:48 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Even with their $50 off coupon for lifetime membership, that's still $225... And at $12.49/year... I think I'll do the annual membership. I question whether they'll still be around in 20 years, or with the same service offering/agreement anyway
19:48 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Any thoughts?
19:49 < hprmbridge> lachlan> Why so many years??
19:50 < hprmbridge> nmz787> 12.49*20 = $249.80
19:50 < hprmbridge> nmz787> So about the same
19:50 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Unless inflation means they up the annual price
19:50 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:22 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:2546:63e4:b008:41ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:32 -!- drmeister [sid45147@id-45147.ilkley.irccloud.com] has quit [Server closed connection]
22:33 -!- drmeister [sid45147@id-45147.ilkley.irccloud.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:54 -!- berndj [~berndj@197.189.254.139] has quit [Server closed connection]
22:54 -!- berndj [~berndj@197.189.254.139] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:58 -!- otoburb [~otoburb@user/otoburb] has quit [Server closed connection]
22:59 -!- otoburb [~otoburb@user/otoburb] has joined #hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Mon Jun 19 00:00:34 2023