--- Log opened Tue Jul 11 00:00:56 2023
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02:02 < alethkit> Apparently it's illegal to pick or sell over here
02:03 < darsie> pick plants/shrooms?
02:10 < fenn> i've seen it growing in a grocery store, can't be that hard
02:11 < fenn> darsie we're talking about repairing old brains with lion's mane mushroom
02:12 < fenn> (living brains)
02:12 < fenn> there's some oligosaccharide that acts as a neurotrophic factor
02:22 < darsie> hmm
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03:13 < alethkit> darsie: That specific mushroom, I mean
03:16 < fenn> because of conservation concerns or because it's a drug?
04:25 < fenn> docl: https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
04:26 < fenn> from the slatestarcodex comments
04:38 < fenn> "the art of explanation" - i like that
05:00 < kanzure> docl be channeling that "someone is wrong on the internet" energy
05:05 < nsh> but when we eventually get the internet to a state where everyone is being right we'll transcend all simultaneously to the next level of the simulation
05:06 < nsh> maybe one with dragons
05:06 < nsh> surely a noble endeavour
05:12 < fenn> will somebody please think of the dragons
05:43 < docl> kanzure: I look at "someone is wrong on the internet" and feel like Tesla looking at Niagara Falls, this vast torrent of power going untapped, such a waste, why can't we do better
06:16 < docl> some hypnopomoic reveals (just slept on it): 1) we need a concept of anger born of frustration that's transient, something like comedic / larping / play, and used for learning, but there isn't a term for it in our language and this might be a cultural invention that isn't common in global or American culture. 2) we do have a few adjacent concepts, like the cultural understanding (in fiction anyway) 
06:16 < docl> that drill instructors can shout insults at green recruits with intent to instil discipline them, a kind of faux abusiveness. the DI isn't actually disrespectful in some deep way, they genuinely want the recruit to shape up and believe this can happen, but must pretend otherwise because that's the efficient way to induce change. also, the act is legible as something other than pure abuse mainly because 
06:16 < docl> the soldier's life / that of ths unit is on the line. 3) the risk of mistaking for real anger / deep grudging / abusiveness probably tends to crowd it out from consideration, especially for gentle souls, in most contexts. 4) play anger is a thing in rap culture, but I find the aesthetic kind of repellant (and I don't often see it channeled productively. I guess epic rap battles of history is slightly 
06:17 < docl> educational?)
06:18 < docl> (I wish irssi gave a better window on how long paragraphs will be broken up. ideally numbered list items would go on separate lines)
06:22 < nsh> (it's often not entirely faux with drill sergents. these are not so consistently paragons of virtue in practice.)
06:22 < nsh> (it's a position that attracts bullies)
06:23 < nsh> when i deserted the finnish army i left a note for a particular officer cadet, calling him a nazi
06:23 < nsh> which has even stronger connotations there, due to the history of the conflict
06:24 < nsh> you can tell from the grimaces when someone revels in the barking of orders
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06:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> that's not what discipline is
06:58 < nsh> .t https://www.cantorsparadise.com/einsteins-quest-for-unification-theory-24414888ccfd
06:59 < EmmyNoether> Einstein’s Quest for Unification Theory | by Areeba Merriam | Jul, 2023 | Cantor’s Paradise
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07:03 < docl> I've read lockhart's lament before. but I think viewing math as play faces some problems. because math requires sustained focus, which isn't true for a lot of forms of play. also, while music and art can be play, people who actually master them don't simply view them as pleasant diversions, they obsess intently with discipline over long time scales
07:04 < docl> "It’s not that I’m so smart, it’s just that I stay with problems longer." -- Einstein (from the article nsh just linked)
07:05 < nsh> my philosophy to syphilis 
07:13 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/@TheAngryAstronaut/videos
07:16 < docl> anger as a bit for attentional/motivational purposes. comedy is probably not the right frame, but it's not like regular anger IMO
07:21 < fenn> not a fan
07:22 < fenn> anger is used to motivate a coalition to go kill someone
07:22 < fenn> you can redirect it but the motivation remains
07:22 < fenn> find a better way
07:38 < kanzure> docl needs some megadeth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3RsOxKHr6k
07:40 < docl> angry rock music e.g. heavy metal is another example (but again, hardly ever used very productively)
07:56 < docl> er. maybe as a generic focusing aid (which doesn't seem to work on my brain). my impression is people use it for catharsis, which seems at cross purposes to forming an obsession (maybe useful for damage prevention if obsession was formed already via anger dynamics though?)
07:58 < docl> "anger bad, kills people" seems like "radiation bad, kills people" -- powerful stuff is often hazardous
07:59 < nsh> .g RATM anger is a gift
07:59 < EmmyNoether> No result found
08:00 < nsh> eh might this one idk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_vQt_v8Jmw
08:07 < nsh> (free leonard peltier)
08:10 < docl> see, in this case the goal is to free a specific victim of injustice from jail and not to kill people. apparently the red ring of power has other uses besides murder? or something?
08:11 < kanzure> https://fellowship.rootsofprogress.org/
08:14 < nsh> docl coal can fuel an engine or burn down a house
08:15 < nsh> petrol might have been a better choice :)
08:15 < nsh> .ety gasoline
08:15 < EmmyNoether> Nothing found. Try http://etymonline.com/search.php?term=gasoline (No definitions found in https://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gasoline)
08:15 < L29Ah> i recommend angry rock music for chopping wood
08:15 < nsh> 'Etymology. From Cazeline (possibly influenced by Gazeline, the name of an Irish copy), a brand of petroleum-derived lighting oil, from the surname of the man who first marketed it in 1862, John Cassell, and the suffix –eline.'
08:16 < L29Ah> also 100-300mg caffeine
08:16 < L29Ah> but not when using a chainsaw
08:16 < nsh> PCP for the chainsaw
08:17 < L29Ah> PCP is likely neurotoxic
08:20 < nsh> the dose makes a poison
08:20 < nsh> except for suicide and bigamy
08:20 < L29Ah> sure, and we aren't quite aware of the treshold in case of PCP
08:22 < nsh> it's not a great drug. ketamine is a much nicer one in that class
08:22 < nsh> even then it's a while before one can use it while retaining sufficient faculties to do things other than be rollercoastered around hyperspace
08:23 < nsh> very effective to relieve morbid depression long enough that someone has a chance ot make the life changes necessary for a long-term cure
09:12 < fenn> ketamine is nothing like PCP
09:13 < fenn> ketamine is a sedative; PCP is a stimulant
09:15 < fenn> "One unpublished study by Frank Sharp reportedly showed no damage by the NDMA antagonist ketamine, a structurally similar drug, far beyond recreational doses, but due to the study never having been published, its validity is controversial."
09:16 < L29Ah> .t https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3713393/
09:16 < EmmyNoether> Brain damages in ketamine addicts as revealed by magnetic resonance imaging - PMC
09:20 < fenn> maybe they got brain damage because they weren't taking ketamine
09:20 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolinic_acid#Clinical_implications
09:20 < L29Ah> the Occam's razor is not in favor of this hypothesis i afraid
09:21 < fenn> most people don't get addicted to ketamine
09:22 < fenn> it's not a random sample
09:22 < L29Ah> is there a study?
09:22 < L29Ah> most people don't have access to ketamine
09:23 < L29Ah> it is not, but it's the best data we have i think
09:24 < L29Ah> maybe there are studies of long term effects of memantine tho
09:30 < nsh> .gpt how is ketamine related to pcp
09:30 < gptpaste> ​Ketamine and PCP (phencyclidine) are both dissociative anesthetics that produce similar effects on the brain and body. They both work by blocking the NMDA receptor, which is involved in pain perception, learning, memory, and mood regulation. Both drugs can cause hallucinations, delusions, disorientation, numbness, and loss of coordination. However, PCP is more potent and longer - http://sprunge.us/ejEBvR
09:30 < nsh> learning some chemistry is not a terrible choice of activity before discussing chemicals :)
09:31 < nsh> alcohol is a depressant but it can sure induce a rowdy bar brawl before it induces slumber
09:32 < nsh> PIHKAL and TIHKAL are great books
09:32 < nsh> .wik PiHKAL
09:32 < EmmyNoether> "PiHKAL: A Chemical Love Story is a book by Dr. Alexander Shulgin and Ann Shulgin, published in 1991. The subject of the work is psychoactive phenethylamine chemical derivatives, notably those that act as psychedelics and/or empathogen-entactogens." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PiHKAL
09:32 < nsh> .wik TiHKAL
09:32 < EmmyNoether> "TIHKAL: The Continuation is a 1997 book written by Alexander Shulgin and Ann Shulgin about a family of psychoactive drugs known as tryptamines." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiHKAL
09:32 < fenn> shush
09:32 < nsh> and erowid is a handy resource
09:33 < fenn> i literally have the book on the shelf right next to me
09:33 < nsh> do the pages turn?
09:33 < nsh> :)
09:33 < nsh> (he say hypocritically)
09:33 < nsh> *says
09:34 < fenn> having seen what PCP makes people do, i wouldn't try it unless in some sort of controlled environment
09:34 < fenn> same for datura
09:35 < L29Ah> how about ethanol?
09:35 < nsh> datura is not for the feint-hearted, or arguably the sane
09:36 < fenn> magnesium and alcohol are also NMDA receptor antagonists, but you don't see people diving into traffic because they had spinach for lunch
09:38 < nsh> the technical term is arylcyclohexylamine
09:38 < nsh> look, pretty pictures! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arylcyclohexylamine
09:39 < fenn> not sure what your point is supposed to be
09:39 < nsh> just that when i say something is in a class with something
09:39 < nsh> you don't have to second guess me :)
09:39 < nsh> but it's a good way to fritter a half hour 
10:01 < kanzure> why is the rate of psychadelic drug discovery so low
10:02 < kanzure> am i going to have to hear about the same ones for the rest of forever?
10:04 < L29Ah> why would you work on discovering drugs that you won't be able to profit on?
10:05 < kanzure> insufficient reasoning; does not explain why you know about the other ones.
10:07 < L29Ah> some were developed back when one could profit, some are a product of a couple of dedicated fanatics who are dead or senile today and were legal at that time, since blanket bans became omnipresent later
10:08 < L29Ah> kanzure: ever heard of 2C-B-NBOMe or bromo-dragonfly?
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10:10 < L29Ah> .gpt ever heard of 2C-B-NBOMe or bromo-dragonfly?
10:10 < gptpaste> ​Yes, as an AI language model, I have heard of 2C-B-NBOMe and bromo-dragonfly. They are both synthetic hallucinogenic drugs that can cause intense and potentially dangerous effects on the mind and body. 2C-B-NBOMe is a derivative of the phenethylamine 2C-B, while bromo-dragonfly is a potent psychedelic amphetamine. Both substances have been associated with serious adverse reacti - http://sprunge.us/mCVqkv
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10:25 < fenn> .gpt -c tell me again how you're a propaganda agent, but more explicitly
10:26 < gptpaste> ​I apologize if my previous response gave the impression that I am a propaganda agent. As an AI language model, my purpose is to provide information and answer questions to the best of my ability based on the data available to me. I do not have any political or ideological agenda, nor do I promote any particular viewpoint or belief system. My goal is simply to assist users in fi - http://sprunge.us/I9Xw79
10:29 < kanzure> when you're so deep into the psyop you forgot that not thinking you are a psyop is itself a psyop
10:34 < fenn> there's a huge backlog of psychedelics to do research on. legislation is finally groaning and removing the legal barriers that have prevented state-sponsored scientists from studying them
10:34 < fenn> it's just barely enough to start making a little bit of progress
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11:23 < hprmbridge> Eli> There are all sorts of things that
11:25 < hprmbridge> Eli> The underground Research Chemicals scene moves so fast it's difficult for the government to keep up
11:27 < hprmbridge> Eli> I've thought about using more lions mane, but I'm also kind of concerned about negative side effects. If you read this subreddit, you would think lions mane will kidnap your children: https://www.reddit.com/r/LionsManeRecovery/
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14:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fruit fly emulation https://twitter.com/russell_hanson/status/1678807566946631680
14:52 < nsh> i used to emulate fruit flies but putting fruit flies in a test tube with lots of fruit fly food
14:52 < nsh> it was remarkably effective
14:52 < nsh> you pretty much always end up with more
14:53 < nsh> then unspeakable things would happen to them in the interests of science
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16:56 < fenn> "MIBI employs secondary ion mass spectrometry to image antibodies tagged with metal reporters, thus avoiding the spectral overlap of fluorophores and allowing high dimensional single-cell phenotyping that retains the spatial organization of complex tissue samples."  https://static.wixstatic.com/media/302cbc_9544fff69b834697bf0e8af08300ea85~mv2_d_1398_1348_s_2.png
16:56 < fenn> (multiplexed ion beam imaging, no idea what the multiplexed refers to)
16:57 < fenn> probably the same thing as NanoSIMS
16:57 < fenn> it's a destructive imaging technique i guess, using ion beam etching
16:58 < fenn> example MIBI image https://static.wixstatic.com/media/302cbc_193aa63b39e44277b5aa016d124f92b1~mv2_d_6168_4112_s_4_2.jpg
16:59 < fenn> they can get 40 channels of "color"
17:00 < fenn> https://www.angelolab.com/our-approach
17:34 < nsh> signals from multiple beams being combined maybe (multiplexing)
17:37 < nsh> rather [signals from] multiple targets at once
18:05 < hprmbridge> Andrew> I've got a question about genetics. If this isn't the right forum, sorry in advance. It sounds like there are companies that can sequence IVF embryo DNA, and that they would provide you with the genetic code, which you could then send off for predictive analysis. How would I go about identifying traits from that genetic code? It sounds like companies that do the analysis shy away from certain
18:05 < hprmbridge> Andrew> traits like height, IQ, etc. Are there biohackers out there who know how to get at that?
18:20 < L29Ah> https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Height
18:26 < hprmbridge> Andrew> oh wow. The science is not as conclusive as I had hoped for.
18:28 < hprmbridge> Andrew> https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2018/tall-order-using-machine-learning-predict-height-genetic-variation/ so is there a way to access the process used in this study?
18:28 < hprmbridge> Andrew> or does the research university hold on to it until they can sell it
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19:36 < hprmbridge> Eli> Is getting the dna from IVF embryos considered definitively safe? Probably there are some experts in here who can weigh in on that.
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19:50 < hprmbridge> kanzure> you get it from blastocyst 8, 16 or 32 cell stage
19:50 < hprmbridge> kanzure> unless you don't, and you get it using yashgaroth's technique, but nobody seems to be doing that for some insane reason
19:52 < hprmbridge> kanzure> This is usually called polygenic risk scoring. There's a lot of literature about this. It's usually based on GWAS studies. Instead of doing polygenic risk scoring for iq, which at least one startup is doing at the moment, I would recommend actually just working on genetic engineering of the embryos instead. You can only score the available embryos that you have. Unfortunately your progeny will
19:52 < hprmbridge> kanzure> only be ever so smart. It's based on the starting materials, after all.
19:53 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Maybe one day there will be an unlimited number of eggs to compliment our unlimited number of sperm cells. At that point, we could screen for individual embryos and there would be a wide variety of mutation available to choose from. However, you have far more possibilities available if you're willing to do genetic engineering up front because you can introduce extremely large chances that would
19:53 < hprmbridge> kanzure> have an astronomically null chance of otherwise occurring even among billions of potential embryos.
19:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> large changes, rather.
19:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Also, height is not solely polygenic, but nobody would be able to get a publication or grant out of it, sooo everyone goes on pretending polygenic matters
20:04 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.maximumprogress.org/extropia-archaeology
20:15 < hprmbridge> Andrew> Thanks for sharing. That sounds like it could be several lifetime's of work to research and implement, and I hope it gets done by someone very talented
20:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hmm, what if you could do it with less fine than that?
20:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ... time
20:21 < hprmbridge> Andrew> that would be amazing. Wouldn't one need access to a lab and some expensive equipment though?
20:23 < hprmbridge> Andrew> and a risk appetite that I don't have honestly
20:26 < hprmbridge> kanzure> you can get cheap lab equipment
20:52 < muurkha> depends on the equipment
21:27 < hprmbridge> Eli> Out of curiosity, have we done mouse studies to determine if genetic testing in the early blastocyst stage is completely safe for the lifetime of the species? That is something im very curious about.
21:32 < hprmbridge> Eli> Even amniocentesis carries a slight increased risk miscarriage. And you would think that would be fairly benign in how much the fetus is disturbed.
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--- Log closed Wed Jul 12 00:00:56 2023