--- Log opened Thu Jul 13 00:00:57 2023
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05:59 < kanzure> when you forget to be terrified of going to sleep https://twitter.com/edavidds/status/1679454125736726529
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06:43 < docl> I feel like if I could risklessly break the law and obtain lisdexamfetamine at undistorted market prices and thereby deprive Shire Pharmaceuticals of the royalties they get from their vyvanse patent, I totally would. I also think I would obtain it without an rx, depriving doctors of easy money from unnecessary medical visits. always-cooperator doesn't necessarily make sense when the other party has 
06:44 < docl> defected on you already
06:45 < docl> (it's not just that they have defected on me, but that they defect on the global good that concerns me)
06:51 < muurkha> maybe by obeying the law you are defecting; certainly that is the premise of the original prisoner's dilemma scenario
06:55 < docl> I think the idea of that aspect of the scenario was to make law irrelevant, the focus being on cooperation between the prisoners. most laws obeyed are a form of cooperation with the general good. for example, respecting property rights or not creating risks to others in traffic.
06:56 < docl> passing a bad law to gain political advantage would be defection vs the general public (but cooperation with the political constituency that prefers the bad law)
06:56 < muurkha> most laws obeyed are not a form of cooperation with the common good, that's ridiculous
06:56 < muurkha> they're a form of the rich robbing the poor
06:57 < muurkha> by leveraging the state's monopoly on violence with impunity
06:57 < muurkha> there are a few exceptions like respecting property rights and traffic laws
06:58 < muurkha> but those are by far the minority of laws obeyed
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07:46 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Saw a smart watch advertisement yesterday and it said it had 1.5+16GB RAM
07:46 < hprmbridge> nmz787> IDK why a watch would need so much...
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08:45 < TMA> because modern spyware is not size-optimized?
08:46 < docl> if laws are systemically unjust to the extent that exceeds half their influence, rents from power asymmetry will outpace production and the economy will shrink. so I think laws are more than half beneficial to the poor in stable / economically growing (absent foreign malinvestment or exploitable natural resources) regimes.
08:47 < muurkha> I think your logic is skipping several steps there
08:48 < docl> yeah I rewrote for brevity, which I do a lot
08:49 < muurkha> there's no strong reason why any particular distribution of benefits should be incompatible with any particular level of production, except if people involved in production are literally starving to death or otherwise have their productivity impaired
08:49 < docl> some assumptions include that it's not a slavery economy, and does depend on labor in some way (otherwise upward mobility could be impossible for the poor while the economy does grow
08:51 < muurkha> slavery is a spectrum.  the Congo Free State was at one end of the spectrum, but today in the US innumerable people are convinced that if they quit their current jobs they will lose their health insurance and go bankrupt
08:51 < muurkha> so it's not at the opposite end
08:52 < docl> sure, I'll support the notion that injustice exists in the US, just not that it exceeds half the law. it has to be slightly less, for the net effect to be economic growth (with allowances for full automation changing the game)
08:52 < muurkha> the most efficient form of slavery is the internalized mental form where people never consider certain options or make their choices in service of some ideology
08:53 < muurkha> laws don't produce economic growth; production does
08:53 < docl> laws constrain rent (power asymmetry), giving production room to happen
08:54 < muurkha> mostly customs and satyagraha constrain rent and laws
08:54 < muurkha> private property predates every code of laws, and survives their collapase
08:54 < muurkha> *collapse
08:54 < docl> like, if I'm given 30 days notice and escorted out of my apartment by police, that's a very different situation than the apartment owner hiring a gang of thugs to abduct me and sell me into debt slavery
08:55 < muurkha> note that in the second case the thugs also have to be police if the debt slavery is legal
08:55 < muurkha> but even where it is not legal, it remains widespread
08:56 < muurkha> because it turns out law is not some magical separate category of human group behavior; it works through the same dynamics of incentives and influence as any other human group behavior
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09:27 < docl> well, I am not disagreeing with that. I just think law on net does more good than harm. it can reduce the rate at which a behavior occurs substantially, even when weakly enforced. for example, there's a city ordinance against having someone live in a trailer on your property where I live. I gather it's weakly enforced and would consider doing it for a trusted friend or family member. I'd even consider 
09:27 < docl> a person who breaks the law to do that to be doing good in the world. but I wouldn't want the city to become one where it's simply the done thing to rent your driveway out to a stranger via craigslist ad. that would probably increase crime rates including e.g. shoplifting. and I'd have to lock my garage so nobody takes my tools, stuff like that. so it's not a defection in these cases, but it would be 
09:28 < docl> if everyone did it. so as I see it, "most cases" of people following the law is cooperative even where some people breaking it is cooperative.
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10:55 < muurkha> docl: I thought a bit about your argument and it seems that you are begging the question by implicitly assuming that whatever economic productivity there is stems from the law; with that assumption of course you will come to the conclusion that it does more good than harm.  But the same is true of the assumption that, for example, whatever economic productivity there is stems from the generosity of 
10:55 < muurkha> Eva Perón, as children were once taught in schools here.
10:57 < muurkha> With respect to your trailer-dwelling example, you're suffering from a status-quo bias probably due to inadequate reading of history.  Remember that zoning laws were nonexistent in the US until a century ago; when Thoreau went to go live at Walden, he didn't apply for any building permits, he just bought a shack from a miner who had built it, without any permits, and hauled it to Walden to 
10:57 < muurkha> reassemble.
10:58 < muurkha> And yet, as best we can tell, crime rates throughout most of US history (I'm assuming from your perspective that you're in the US) were much lower than they are today, though the last 20 years of the 20th century are an exception.
10:59 < muurkha> In most cases, when people follow the law, they are merely helping the rich slit the throat of their fellows.
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11:48 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.ginkgobioworks.com/2023/07/13/iarpa-b24ic-research-contract-developing-breakthrough-biointelligence-and-biosecurity-innovations/
11:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://medium.com/@andrewhessel/a-futurists-perspective-on-synbio-in-africa-challenges-and-opportunities-75f1be02fef5
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13:22 < kanzure> .gpt4 Describe Haruko Obokata's contribution to cellular reprogramming 
13:22 < gptpaste> ​Haruko Obokata is a Japanese stem-cell biologist who claimed to have developed a revolutionary method of cellular reprogramming. In 2014, she published two papers in the journal Nature where she introduced the concept of Stimulus-Triggered Acquisition of Pluripotency (STAP). Obokata and her team claimed that they had successfully converted adult mouse cells back into versatil - http://sprunge.us/6f9PB5
13:23 < kanzure> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12968
13:23 < kanzure> (retracted)
13:38 < kanzure> whole body horse cryotherapy https://www.equine-cryo.com/
13:39 < kanzure> wait what "A quick, 2-10 minute, whole body cryotherapy procedure, where horses enter our Equine Mobile Chamber and are exposed to temperatures between 100-140 degrees Celicius"
13:47 < kanzure> cc jrayhawk
13:54 < yashgaroth> imagining the guy reading the wikipedia article about LN2 temperature going "kel...vin? boy they sure did misspell celisious"
14:00 < yashgaroth> ah I see they're positioning themselves as the manufacturer rather than simply offering horse-freezing as a service. Moving up the value chain by selling mobile horsicle dispensers to people who both own an F-350 and sometimes forget which way is up
14:34 < kanzure> https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexzhavoronkov/2022/06/29/a-week-at-the-most-secretive-conference-on-aging/
14:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1129168894834266262/image.png
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18:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hello @lemmy
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18:24 < hprmbridge> lemmy> hey @kanzure been a hot minute since I"ve been on hplusroadmap, almost a decade I think
19:09 < fenn> in general, please link to the actual tweet that contains interesting content, not the tweet that is exclusively commentary or reaction to the tweet, because non-logged-in browsers can't see the tweet context anymore
19:09 < fenn> both would be ok if the commentary is truly important
19:10 < fenn> i'm not sure if quote tweets are visible or not
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19:15 < fenn> nmz787_: 1.5+16GB RAM is idiot marketer not understanding the difference between RAM and flash storage. it's obviously 1.5GB of RAM and 16GB of flash. you do need a lot of ram to run audio processing neural networks, regardless of whether the OS is bloated
19:17 < fenn> nmz787_: SoC packages have chip stacked RAM, more chips in the stack means more expense, so i'd guess 1.5GB is about 1 RAM chip worth, using low grade RAM with defects from a batch of 2GB chips
19:18 < fenn> if the yield is too low you don't get any 2GB chips at all, which is the product you were actually trying to make
19:38 < fenn> what is happening to that horse in the foggy trailer? why does whole body cryotherapy use liquid nitrogen instead of ice water?
19:39 < fenn> a vest loaded with ice packs sounds a lot cheaper and easier in general
19:41 < fenn> .t https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001691814000249
19:41 < EmmyNoether> HTTPError: HTTP Error 403: Forbidden (title:75)
19:41 < fenn> "Coldness elicits referential, warmth elicits relational creativity"
19:43 < fenn> "experiencing a tactile sensation of warmth through holding a cup of warm (vs. cold) coffee or by using a warm (vs. cold) therapeutic pad made people perceive a stranger as having a “warmer” personality or to become more generous in choosing a gift for their friend versus for themselves."
19:52 < docl> well, it probably doesn't remove heat as quickly as ice water since there's less mass of it in contact with the skin surface. and isn't as drying of the skin as cold dry air, so more pleasant. probably also cools at a more consistent rate than slow moving CDA since the fog layer in contact with skin can't warm up as fast
19:54 < fenn> what is "it"
19:54 < fenn> the fog appears to be condensation from the air due to cold air
19:54 < fenn> like you'd get when boiling liquid nitrogen
19:58 < fenn> the torrance tests of creativity make me angry for some reason
19:58 < fenn> they give you some random shape, tell you to "complete the figure" and then subjectively judge whether your drawing is "creative" or not. that's it, that's the whole test
19:58 < fenn> and this is supposedly a valid psychological metric
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20:08 < justanotheruser> anyone know how I can get this article? https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-01333-1_3
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21:06 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Fenn I guess I've just assumed these smart watches with pulse oximeter and sleep tracking whatever were just data loggers, offloading the processing to a phone or laptop/PC. They'd get way better battery life that way I'd guess
21:06 < fenn> humanity has lost the ability to make simple electronics
21:14 < muurkha> fenn: can't nitter see the context?
21:50 < fenn> huh apparently it does. i wonder how nitter is getting the data
21:53 < fenn> i would love to meet fenn-237 after he returns from exploring the galaxy
21:54 < fenn> i don't need to kill myself to do this
21:55 < fenn> a lot of star trek scenarios involve people transporting away from a bad guy prison before the bad guys can torture them for information or learn how the advanced macguffin tech works
21:55 < fenn> in those situations i guess you would have to die :\
21:57 < fenn> apparently neural network merge is super duper simple and easy with artificial neural networks
21:57 < fenn> with identical architectures*
21:57 < fenn> i'm really amazed how well it works in practice, can't believe how well it works
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23:54 < hprmbridge> Eli> @fennfoot is the cell more like a battery or capacitor? How about mitochondria?
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--- Log closed Fri Jul 14 00:00:58 2023