--- Log opened Sat Jul 22 00:00:06 2023
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04:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> be the longevity wiki you wish to be.
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07:20 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adf8009
07:20 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> Lots of bone lengths are surprisingly heritable
07:23 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Cool, but feed em growth hormone
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08:24 < docl> I wonder if the skeletal changes are related in any way to the fused chromosome
08:25 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> Maybe for overall height, but these SNPs are also bone-specific
08:26 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyUU0RNonKE after like a decade v2 of digicortex is here appraently
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12:00 < stipa> Computer chip with built-in human brain tissue gets military funding https://newatlas.com/computers/human-brain-chip-ai/
12:06 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I sent some papers about growing functional vasculature of brain organoids a few days back, worth a look if you are interested in this stuff
12:07 < stipa> where did you send it?
12:08 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> here you can see it in the archive at 16:18  https://gnusha.org/logs/2023-07-14.log
12:10 < stipa> i see
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13:15 < andytoshi> lol is it common for semanticscholar to link to diyhpl.us? https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Efficient-RNS-Bases-for-Cryptography-Bajard-M%C3%A9loni/d9df4397cb978a02e70fc917ae9ecff703025eb0
13:16 < hprmbridge> kanzure> andytoshi: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C44&q=%22diyhpl.us%22+-site%3Adiyhpl.us&btnG=
13:17 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Huh, funny thing is I was looking at RNS a while back
13:18 < andytoshi> fun. it might possibly be relevant for hand-computed cryptography, see https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/118941/112043
13:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I know diyhplus has looked at myostatin inhibitors. But I was wondering if anyone has looked at directly increasing the number of myonucli in muscle fibres? Basically trying to fake the "muscle memory" that makes it easier to regain lost muscle
13:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I think it would be a much more middle of the road approach over inhibiting myostatin
13:23 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> But I know relatively little on this so it could be a dumb idea
13:23 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there is something in the recent logs about increasing titin length as one potential target
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18:08 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> you'd have to find a signal that encourages satellite cells to proliferate, which isn't as well-studied as the myostatin pathway(s). Why not just grow muscle instead of being potentially more able to grow muscle? Bimagrumab is hitting shelves soon, it's indicated for weigh loss but it's a myostatin receptor inhibitor and isn't toxic
18:08 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> weight* agh
18:10  * L29Ah wonders if myostatin inhibition causes problematic myocardial hypertrophy
18:12 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> True I was considering it more as a curiosity, but incressing the ease that someone can build muscle might be a better idea if for example famine is possible.
18:12 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> If you were sitting down and designing a humans 2.0 such that they could live even if technology fell you'd probably want them to be robust against situations like famine
18:12 < kanzure> i don't think those messages get sent over, L29Ah
18:14 < hprmbridge> msnewgooty> Once they have an auto injector version things will be wild
18:14 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> cardiac hypertrophy doesn't seem to be an issue unless you're globally knocking out myostatin from birth thankfully, to address L29ah's concern
18:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Also iirc muscle from myostatin inhibition doesn't benefit strength as much from what I've read
18:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> That's good to know, it was one of the issues I had worries about
18:17 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> I'm curious to see the economics of bimagrumab since it's wegovy/mounjaro without the nausea or extreme muscle loss. Probably cost $20-30k per year until they spin up some big new facilities for it, though, since up to now every biopharma drug has had a comparatively small patient pool
18:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It's a monoclonal antibody right?
18:18 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> if we're planning for possible famines then something's gone terribly wrong, but you get the same benefit to muscle memory from growing it now and losing it during the hungry times
18:19 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> yep, monoclonal targeting the activin receptors. They tried it for myositis, which I feel is like putting a turbocharger on a car that's on fire, but luckily it works for weight loss too
18:20 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> plus residual muscle mass will allow you to fight malnourished competitors for scraps more effectively, though those scraps will probably be made up of even more malnourished competitors
18:21 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> and yes myostatin-generated muscle might not be as effective as that grown via more natural methods, though that's been hard to test in mice since they don't like to bench press in their cages
18:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Plan for the worst hope for the best and all that, you want engineered humans to be robust against environmental changes.  the world system is very fragile, in spite of markets being self organising systems, sufficient disruption to water or fertilizer supply can have knock on effects. I'm no doomer tho even the worst cases aren't mad max
18:22 < muurkha> hmm, was my last common ancestor with crabgrass even multicellular?
18:23 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Pity, could use the YouTube revenue of such videos to fund research
18:23 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> 24/7 Motivational mouse gym stream donations appreciated
18:24 < muurkha> the worst cases are the Great Leap Forward, the Holocaust, the Khwarazmian Empire, the Inquisition, global thermonuclear war.  much worse than Mad Max
18:24 < muurkha> maybe North Korea is worse; not clear whether a global North Korea coould be stable
18:24 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> I used to be more food-doomer, but if we slaughter livestock and halt bioethanol, there's a lot of calories to spare. And the haber process is only 1% of natural gas usage. Though of course we'd see plenty of famine, hell we see it now even with all that being true
18:26 < muurkha> yeah, livestock burn most cultivated calories
18:26 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It's debatable, mass famine and die off is defenitely possible especially if mass production of fertilizer stops. But even in a collapsing world it wouldn't be sudden unless it's nuclear war and high technology would still persist in places
18:27 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It wouldn't be pleasant
18:28 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> yeah depends on the collapse scenario, soybeans don't need nitrogen but if there's no diesel for tractors it doesn't matter
18:31 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> True, however the current population load and degree of cultivation is highly dependent on mass industrial production of fertilizer, along with mechanised farming equipment etc. The food supply chain might reorg in a few years but the fallout of food shortages on a large scale for a year or two would be enough to cause unrest and potentially cause a reinforcing feedback loop
18:32 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Like it's not just nitrogen you need, nitrogen is fairly easy if you've got yourself a decent power source
18:33 < muurkha> birkeland-eyde is pretty inefficient
18:33 < L29Ah> potassium is available from cleverly evaporated seawater (but lots of extra chloride one has to deal with somehow), phosphorus is annoying
18:33 < muurkha> phosphorus is just acidifying apatite
18:34 < muurkha> how do you separate the potassium from the sodium?  do you have to use perchlorate?
18:36 < muurkha> I feel like a high-throughput homebrew Haber-Bosch reactor is pretty challenging even if you aren't getting raided by police or other drug gangs
18:36 < L29Ah> they have different relative solubilities at different temperatures
18:36 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Phosphates are defenitely one of the main potential issues that might lead to feedback loops as it needs to be industrially mined. However mass production of phosphates phosphorus.
18:36 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> The other point is even if supply isn't reduced long run an increase in production cost would have ripple effects and could cause famine even without total collapse
18:37 < muurkha> hmm, so you separate the sodium and potassium chlorides by recrystallization?  that sounds hard to scale up
18:38 < L29Ah> i'm not sure how sodium-free you need it to be
18:38 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> However you do it unless you've got nanotech filters it'd be energy intensive
18:39  * L29Ah waits for genetically engineered mangroves
18:39 < muurkha> you have to keep the sodium level pretty low to avoid salinization
18:39 < muurkha> ?
18:39 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I suspect so don't wanna salt the earth
18:40 < muurkha> alonzoc: agriculture is inherently enormously energy-intensive
18:41 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah, that's the whole point. It modern 8 billion people scale agriculture depends on a bunch of interlocking and globally distributed supply chains
18:41 < muurkha> but if you can drive your potassium process with low-grade solar heat, even a lot of energy could be quite cheap
18:42 < muurkha> no, even 5000 years ago agriculture was very energy-intensive unless you forget to count sunlight.  now it is less so
18:42 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> You can figure it out, if you know the maximum tolerance for salt per square meter and the requires potassium per square meters
18:42 < muurkha> being energy-intensive is separable from the interlocking and globally distributed supply chains
18:43 < muurkha> open-source software is inspiring here
18:44 < muurkha> I have the life's work of dozens of history's greatest compiler engineers on this palmtop, ready to help me at any instant to create software easily
18:45 < muurkha> I can manufacture a fresh copy of Linux customized for a new computer in 20 minutes
18:46 < muurkha> the CPU, of course, depends on the globally distributed supply chain
18:46 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah growing food is always thermodynamically expansive, I just am not counting the energy of the sun as It's not something I'm paying directly for and isn't dependent on us. If everything fell apart the farmland out my window would get the same sun it always did.
18:46 < hprmbridge> alonzoc>
18:46 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> The point is every step in the supply chains for farm equipment and fertilizer, along with modern water management all rely on abundant usable energy. The global supply chain is an issue from a risk sense and is inextricably tied to the energy supply chain
18:46 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> *expensive
18:46 < muurkha> but given the CPU, the kernel and compiler can compile themselves
18:47 < muurkha> if you don't count the energy of the sun, then this statement about potassium separation is no longer correct: 01:38 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> However you do it unless you've got nanotech filters it'd be energy intensive
18:47 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah which is why high technology would continue if slowed. You could build computers out of the remaining scraps in the worst case salvaging chips and making new PCBs
18:49 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Potentially, however using sea water recrystallization at scale even using the sun has issues. And I doubt it could be usefully scaled up to provide global potassium
18:50 < muurkha> I'm not sure exactly what process L29Ah had in mind
18:50 < muurkha> scaling up recrystallization is notoriously difficult
18:51 < muurkha> but there are a lot of process-industry things that could plausibly be done awith solar process heat
18:54 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Me neither but even if you opt to use the sun to power it you end up needing large basins, which is massively space inefficient if you can't stack them which direct solar would prevent.
18:54 < hprmbridge> alonzoc>
18:54 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> But yeah I agree you could run a lot of stuff of solar heat, but the issue is again being able to do it at global supply scales at low prices otherwise low supply or high production costs would yield ripples that would cause long term food supply issues regardless. No use being in principle able to feed the world if no one can afford it
18:55 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> But i.g. I'm not really worried about a dramatic collapse. Anything that did happen would be a slow decline, a geopolitics and history friend I talked to recently said the best model for the near future if you're a pessimist is the hundred years war
18:58 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> His thoughts however about coming crisis really ignore the impacts near term technologies might have. Like there's historical precident for food supply issues, financial crisis, population collapse (demographic crisis less so), climate change, massive political polarisation, ease of access to violent means, etc etc. But less for the type of automation we have coming down the road, along with
18:58 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> genetics and new manufacturing technologies etc
19:00 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> How they play into how the world evolves in the next decades are pretty much complete wildcards. Like food scarcity is less of an issue if you've got low cost DIYable biologically engineered closed loop aquaponic systems that reuse human waste
19:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> (sorry for the ramble (
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20:50 < docl> nanotech filters sounds like an easier problem than nanotech
20:51 < docl> spiroligomer membranes are currently a thing in the lab https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ange.202302809
22:06 < fenn> i wonder how aged this guy is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Harrison_(blood_donor)
22:10 < fenn> not looking great in this pic https://www.flickriver.com/photos/australianoftheyearawards/sets/72157711530400077/
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23:47 < fenn> imagine if your eyes were so good that you could just look up and see this https://old.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/155hrrj/sun_through_my_telescope/
--- Log closed Sun Jul 23 00:00:07 2023