--- Log opened Sun Jul 23 00:00:07 2023
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05:01 < hprmbridge> kanzure> scientific illustration workshop https://blender.scidart.com/
05:04 < nsh> i think out of safety considerations one should only look at the sun through telescope backwards
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12:39 < muurkha> alonzoc: a large basin is a sheet of 50-micron-thick aluminized Mylar laid over sand, or just clay; people have been doing solar-powered extraction of salts from seawater for millennia.  but I wasn't necessarily suggesting direct solar heating of your chemical process vats, which might be inconvenient for a variety of reasons
12:40 < muurkha> DIYable aquaponics are pretty interesting.  also fungus is capable of detoxifying and digesting a lot of biowaste things that would otherwise be toxic or just inedible
12:41 < muurkha> and that can be pretty low tech, like, a garbage bag full of wet sawdust
12:42 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah I grew up in a town with a ton of semitech savy hippies and they had some interesting early aquaponic setups
12:42 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> An almost fully closed loop system would be awesome and fungi are perfect critters for the human waste recycling step
12:44 < muurkha> it's pretty common for hobbyists to cultivate Agaricus bisporus in their houses in garbage bags full of wet hay
12:44 < muurkha> or straw
12:44 < muurkha> not hay!
12:46 < muurkha> I'm not sure what the thermodynamic efficiency of that process is, i.e., how much of the caloric value of the straw or wood or sawdust or whatever you can get into the mushrooms.  mushrooms are not noted for being calorie-dense
12:46 < muurkha> I'd be surprised if it was over 15% or below 1%
12:47 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Mushroom is an amazing food source nearly as good as meat for cooking and much more efficient
12:47 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It's like we already have labgrown meat with mushrooms
12:47 < muurkha> beef is about 4% efficient, which is easy to beat.  chicken is more like 30% efficient, might be harder to beat
12:47 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> However for a long time I hated the taste and texture of mushroom
12:48 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Mushrooms don't walk around and cluck there's an energy saving there
12:48 < muurkha> mushrooms have the great advantage of being cold-blooded, too
12:48 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I would say mushrooms don't run a neural net but who's sure on that lol
12:48 < muurkha> broilers don't get much chance to walk around either tho
12:48 < muurkha> seems likely that they do, yeah
12:48 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Calcium ion signalling seems to predate neural tissue
12:48 < muurkha> plants do, they have activation potentials in their xylem
12:49 < muurkha> they move much slower than our those in nerve cells tho
12:49 < muurkha> anybody's guess how complex the computation they're carrying out is
12:50 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I saw some research, some researchers did modeling of the "spike trains" and mapped out a statistically significant state graph the plant seems to be running like a FSM
12:50 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'll have to look for the paper when I have time
12:50 < muurkha> soudns interesting
12:50 < muurkha> I'd love tor ead it
12:51 < muurkha> the bamboo here flowered this year
12:51 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah out heavily doubt it's anything close to even insect brains as movement in a dynamic 3D environment is a computationally intensive task
12:51 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> And it will flower forever more knowing bamboo
12:51 < muurkha> no, it's already done
12:51 < muurkha> bamboo synchronized flowering is surely not as complex as fruit-fly navigation, it's true
12:51 < L29Ah> mushrooms aren't efficient since they eat plants while humans can just eat plants instead (at a steady state plantation)
12:52 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> We had a hell of a time removing our bamboo
12:52 < muurkha> mushrooms can eat plants like beema bamboo that humans can't eat
12:52 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Shit took a while to kill
12:52 < L29Ah> remove bamboo, plant duckweed
12:52 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah digesting cellulose is a useful ability
12:52 < L29Ah> or utilize bamboo for construction etc (that cellulose is good for) and grab your food elsewhere
12:53 < muurkha> beema bamboo and sugarcane bagasse produce more calories per hectare per year than anything that humans can eat
12:53 < L29Ah> [citation needed]
12:53 < muurkha> as far as I know!  maybe duckweed beats corn, which is the champion AFAIK
12:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Trick I can vouch for is to cut it all down and starve it for light and next season let it grow and as soon as it's all grown chop it all down again and cover it up. After a few iterations you end up sapping away all the stored energy in the root system
12:54 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Rinse and repeat until you're done
12:54 < muurkha> hopefully the AIs won't do that with the humans once they can
12:54 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Tbh when I've got a house of my own I'd love to grow some bamboo if I can stop it from taking over
12:55 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Please skynet don't cover me with a tarp!
12:55 < L29Ah> there are bamboo species that clump and don't take over
12:56 < L29Ah> and for those that do take over you can utilize plastic barriers to stop the roots from traveling where you don't want them, but still kinda risky
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14:46 < hprmbridge> poppingtonic> https://youtu.be/_gXiVOmaVSo
14:46 < Muaddib> [_gXiVOmaVSo] Shawn Douglas - Nanoscale Instruments for Visualizing Small Proteins & Bret Victor - Dynamicland (28:12)
14:48 < nsh> wait how small is Bret Victor??
14:49 < nsh> DID THEY SHRINK HIM AND INJECT HIM INTO A PERSON FOR SOME SCI-FI PURPOSE??
14:55 < L29Ah> brat vector
14:57 < nsh> ah i see if you're an SVG then you can be really tiny
14:57 < nsh> it's quite genius actually
15:02 < L29Ah> that was supposed to be a pun on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_vector
15:09 < nsh> yes but mine was better
15:09 < nsh> (no, yours was better)
15:09 < nsh> mine's was just wittier and more imaginative and generally representative of my immaculateness
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15:54 < docl> that does sound interesting
15:54 < docl> fungal computers, that is
15:54 < docl> https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2018.0029
15:56 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Ahh yes, my local forest can now run crysis
15:56 < nsh> lol
15:57 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Tbh, a forest sized fungal computer would be a cool curiosity
15:58 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> What did you decide to do in your retirement, well I tend a forest that's actually a myco-computer. Reminds me of the forests in 'to mock a mockingbird '
15:59 < nsh> (the earth is already a computer. this was explained in HHGttG)
16:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> True, those fjords are actually massive register files
16:01 < docl> I wonder if it would be useful to use bioluminescent fungi for readability
16:02 < docl> the sheer scale of a forest floor would be awesome to tap into, assuming it's at all efficient
16:08 < nsh> more efficient than you
16:09 < nsh> you're just here to feed the fungi in a few decades
16:09 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> All is food for the fungi
16:10 < nsh> As the late prophet Rayleigh Theodore Sakers put it:
16:11 < nsh> hmm
16:11 < hprmbridge> poppingtonic> A 15km hike through the fungal forest, definitely better than doomscrolling
16:12 < nsh> ' We’re the filtering system of God; we’re the psychosemantic police -- you can’t even see us. How in the fuck can you do anything about it? We’re pure intelligence; you’re not. You’re a biological product of the cosmoLOGICal universe! You’re molecular matter; I constructed you, FUCK you. I made you up, you didn’t make me up; you got it backwards. You know who you are? You’re a fuckin’ semantic blockage. That’s what made you up.'
16:12 < nsh> - https://genius.com/Raleigh-theodore-sakers-semantic-blockage-annotated
16:12 < docl> well my problem is not being scalable
16:12 < nsh> your problem is that you don't appreciate that you are the same scale as the cosmos
16:13 < nsh> wait i'm doing the wrong channel talks again. ignore me
16:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Also now i'mma be up all night thinking about the possibility that someone engineering cordyceps with an eye to making it do fungi-neural computation
16:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Now that's how you get zombies
16:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> But chimeric organoid bio-robots are much more plausible tbh
16:15 < nsh> how do you not know how either fungi or eyes work?
16:15 < nsh> were you educated in the USA by any chance? :D
16:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> You referring to me?
16:16 < nsh> i'm just yanking your chain
16:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I don't think I've talked about optics
16:16 < nsh> wait no i'm not 
16:16 < nsh> you are a dolt
16:16 < nsh> but it's okay
16:16 < nsh> you're in good company
16:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Lol, bio is far from my specialty
16:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Best I've manages is florescent yeast
16:16 < nsh> you should move to europe about two or three decades ago
16:17 < nsh> it might have helped
16:17 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'm British born and bred
16:17 < nsh> ah yes
16:17 < nsh> even worse
16:17 < nsh> i keed, i keed
16:18 < nsh> .w chimera
16:18 < EmmyNoether> chimera — noun: 1. (Greek mythology) Alternative letter-case form of Chimera, a supposed monster in Lycia with the head of a lion, body of a goat, and tail of a dragon or serpent, killed by the hero Bellerophon, 2. (mythology, art) Any fantastic creature combining parts from different animals
16:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I just keep an odd (well not that odd amongst people I know) sleep schedule
16:18 < nsh> (chimeras have different kinda of DNA)
16:18 < nsh> you're thinking of a cyborg
16:18 < nsh> a cybernetic organism
16:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> In this context, chimeric would relate to using different DNA for your organoids
16:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Nope not cyborg well yes cyborg but also yes chimeric
16:19 < nsh> word salad
16:19 < nsh> it's just word salad on irc this evening
16:19 < nsh> except in the other places where my smart friends live
16:19 < nsh> ehehe
16:19 < nsh> (don't mind me. i'm recreationally mean.)
16:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Without an immune system there's not much of a need match shit
16:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> there might be mechanisms that would kick in but most of the whole tissue mismatch issue that are well studied come from immune function afaik
16:23 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah well I'm unwinding after a day of smashing my head against a wall repeatedly with maths so it's nice to bullshit and unwind so don't mind me
16:26 < nsh> you literally only have to implement like the successor function and you get all the rest for free
16:26 < nsh> you should just tell them to stop wasting your time
16:26 < nsh> WE SOLVED ALL THIS YOU BLOODY BASTARDS. THIS IS CHILD ABUSE
16:26 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Silly me! All I need to do is apply *succ*
16:31 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> If anyones got any papers mentioning orbifolds in the context of statistical learning theory I'd appreciate them being yeeted my way
16:31 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I can't find much on my searches apart from things like footnotes in papers on point cloud modeling
16:38 < muurkha> fluorescent yeast soounds amazing, did you get it to react with fluorescence to the environment?
16:40 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Nothing special I followed a guide, it was just glowing under UV
16:41 < muurkha> I eman could you use the fluorescence to indicate something?  like presence of sugar or something
16:42 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Oh, yeah with some work yeah. I know it's sometimes used as a marker a plasmid is being expressed
16:43 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Usually you put antibiotic resistance in your plasmid to select but a simple florescent protein as well can help with visibility etc. You could also have the florescence only be expressed given ceirtan environmental factors, I remember there's one for lactose iirc
16:44 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> You have a promoter that only "runs" if some environmental state is "satisfied"
16:45 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://blog.addgene.org/plasmids-101-inducible-promoters
16:45 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> This blog is a handy starting point
16:46 < nsh> i'm pretty sure you can't express the proteins typically used as bio markers in fungi
16:46 < nsh> on the other hand i thought about it for approximately 20 milliseconds before deciding
16:47 < nsh> let's see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bioluminescent_fungus_species
16:48 < nsh> once again nature already did it
16:48 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Engineering yeast bioluminescence is a standard hello world for bio stuff these days
16:48 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Oh yeah it's not original
16:49 < nsh> well, it's the GFP
16:49 < nsh> what they need is a RFP and and BFP
16:49 < nsh> then we could have fungal television
16:49 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> If getting DNA printed and lab supplies weren't all expensive I'd tinker with way more bio stuff
16:49 < muurkha> those exist
16:50 < nsh> yeah scientists are just gay for green
16:50 < nsh> probably because we can differentiate it better idk
16:50 < nsh> or actually just because they did that first
16:50 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Greens is best colour what are you saying
16:50 < nsh> and there's no point doing harder things
16:51 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Ehh there's a whole library of sequences for different florescent proteins now and some are open source
16:51 < nsh> plausible answer here: https://www.quora.com/Biochemistry-Why-are-GFP-proteins-more-popular-than-other-types-of-fluorescent-proteins
16:52 < nsh> oh heh, agar is autoflourescent in green. i didn't know that
16:52 < nsh> and i thought i knew all the secrets of agar
16:52 < nsh> i want my money back from those correspondence degree people
16:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I think it's also an inertia thing
16:53 < nsh> most things are
16:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Everyone tags stuff green so we tag stuff green
16:54 < nsh> even the deputy mayor of helsinki
16:54 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> There's also the fact green is easier for us to see I think
16:54 < nsh> ( https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2023/jul/14/helsinki-deputy-mayor-of-street-art-paavo-arhinmaki-graffiti-finland?CMP=share_btn_tw )
16:54 < nsh> well most of the time these things are seen by POORLY PAID MACHINES
16:55 < nsh> because they're cheaper than grad students
16:55 < nsh> (the grad students look at the computers connected to the machines)
16:55 < nsh> (they are also poorly paid)
16:55 < nsh> although $1000 euro a month was quite enough to live on when i was pretending to be a grad student in tampere in 2007
16:56 < nsh> looking at green lines in agar
16:56 < nsh> for stupid reasons
16:56 < nsh> mainly excuses to kill fruit flies
16:56 < nsh> and make yo mamma jokes
16:56 < nsh> (there were actually surprisingly few yo mamma jokes at conferences on mitochordial dna)
16:56 < nsh> (it didn't even occur to me at the time to correct this, for shame.)
16:57 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'm disappointed
16:57 < nsh> rightly so
16:59 < nsh> "Using thousands of mutant yeast strains" LET ME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE, SCIENCE TERRORIST
16:59 < nsh> ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26070672/ )
17:00 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Nah, in retrospect I'm glad I chose not to trek down the bio path. Fiddly and temperamental experiments are a pain and biology is a mess. I still get flashbacks to going down a rabbit whole on the coagulation cascade
17:00 < nsh> the plot of local sunrise and sunset times for Inuvik, Canada looks kinda weird: https://web.ece.ucsb.edu/~jppearson/Mathematica/sunrise-sunset-plot.html
17:00 < nsh> i am biological. i shouldn't have to study it
17:00 < nsh> i am also chemical and physical and mathematical. on conclusion i should just get to play all day
17:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I have heard many a complaint from genetics PhDs about poor efficiency of their transformations sometimes 0% lol
17:01 < nsh> transformating what?
17:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> That's the efficiency of plasmids being expressed or integrated
17:02 < nsh> yeah it's depressingly trial and error
17:02 < nsh> but i mean heaps of that can be made more efficient these days
17:03 < nsh> eeee, and firefox gets oomkilled
17:03 < nsh> how many tabs did i make it to this time with the FOURTY GIGABYTES OF RAM that should easily let me have hundreds open at once
17:03 < nsh> except web people are scum
17:03 < nsh> and shouldn't be allowed computers
17:04 < nsh> there should just be a concerted campaign to not run javascript until morale improves
17:04 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> There's also that each species prefers a different protocols, some organisms like heat shocking some like being zapped etc
17:04 < nsh> there's no intrinsic reason we have to do jevon's paradox in computers
17:04 < nsh> it's just people being berks
17:05 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> You forget jabascript needs all the RAM
17:05 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> (purposeful mistype)
17:06 < nsh> Random Access Memory: a means for computers to pray at the altar of netscape
17:06 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It doesn't help that modern websites are bloated ontop of using inefficient slow bloated runtimes
17:06 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Ahh react.js why did you ever become trendy
17:06 < nsh> it all went downhill when they just started teaching anyone how to use letters
17:09 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Whatever happened to simple websites, I prefer early 2010s late 00s site design. It had the necessary interactivity but didn't need to be as glossy and js reliant as a modern page. Worst is when a company with a good page is forced to "modernise" their web presence because the executives are doing an impression of the business card scene in American psycho
17:10 < nsh> indeed
17:10 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> The diyhplus website is minimalist but usable. There's no noise nor clutter
17:11 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It also doesn't help all corporate web pages are all the same inefficient cookie cutter work
17:11 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Like what do web design agencies do all day
17:11 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Because I'd like free money please
17:11 < nsh> and the sign said, short haired suity people, need not apply
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18:19 < hprmbridge> kanzure> how did nsh turn a conversation from fluorescent proteins into a javascript rant
18:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Have you seen biology?
18:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It's almost as bad as JS
18:19 < hprmbridge> kanzure> have you seen javascr--
18:19 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yeah.
18:20 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It's just biology sometimes has beautiful elegant gems
18:20 < nsh> i mean it's a bloat rant. js is just they thing we bloat with this decade
18:21 < nsh> and the one before that
18:21 < nsh> in fact it's been going on a little bit too long. we should pick another thing to bloat with
18:21 < nsh> i vote for FRACTALS
18:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Microservice bloat beat you on that one
18:23 < nsh> someone did a turing complete microservice 
18:24 < nsh> wait no it was an implementation of a CPU with microservices
18:24 < nsh> and by did it i mean wrote a medium post
18:24 < nsh> which is almost as silly
18:24 < nsh> cba to find it though. you can just imagine the jokes
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18:39 < L29Ah> LLM on top of LLM on top of LLM bloat incoming
18:54 < fenn> LLMs were born bloated
18:55 < fenn> it's bizarre that it has taken ten years for someone to try feeding a baby LLM simple stories like we teach children
18:55 < fenn> like duh maybe there's a reason we don't feed children the entirety of human knowledge presented in a random order
18:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> wait have tried that
18:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> have we tried that?
18:58 < nsh> babies start omniscient anyway. they just get normalised to the banality of humans by enculturation.
19:00 < nsh> similarly token expanders begin omniscient and we train them to be stupid 
19:00 < nsh> so we don't have to wait as long for the clever things to be emitted
19:00 < nsh> i you just enumerate all the sentences it's a lot more efficient except in sense of time
19:00 < nsh> which is the silliest thing to worry about the efficiency of
19:01 < nsh> like probably everything is just the complex plane
19:01 < nsh> it's possible there's more going on in the universe but that would be wasteful
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22:49 < fenn> copenhagen suborbitals uses blender for cad (also solidworks and who knows what else) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJvwOEJnbsU&t=7m45s
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