--- Log opened Tue Aug 01 00:00:15 2023
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04:54 < L29Ah> .t https://principia-scientific.com/nih-funded-study-just-vaccinated-a-human-using-genetically-modified-mosquitoes/
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06:27 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Oh fuck. They're gonna freak at this
06:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Researchers say the genetically modified mosquitos will not be used at large to vaccinate millions of people. The reason why mosquitos were used instead of syringes, they claim, was to save costs."
06:43 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hmm maybe something else to deliver.
07:00 < jrayhawk> pharma companies have long advertised secondary infection as a cost saving measure in unattenuated vaccines
07:01 < jrayhawk> mosquitoes are neither more nor less horrifying than existing practices
07:13 < jrayhawk> justified with PCR-test-negative case control studies, of course
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08:24 < kanzure> even if you can get enough GPUs then you need to find enough energy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36951872
08:25 < kanzure> biology does not have quite the same bottleneck.
08:27 < L29Ah> you can always reduce the frequency to increase the energy efficiency of computers
08:27 < docl> mosquitoes have been injecting viruses without consent since dinosaur times
08:28 < docl> not endorsing the naturalistic fallacy, but maybe it is aesthetically less horrifying or something
08:29  * L29Ah waits for wider floating nuclear power plants
08:29 < L29Ah> deployment.
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09:08 < fenn> "can't just be put into chicken farms" challenge accepted
09:09 < fenn> what are these guys doing that they need 10 MW
09:11 < fenn> run a model that can fit into a single GPU. if its quality is low for your use case, make a good dataset and retrain it
09:11 < fenn> it doesn't take much to fine tune a 65B llama, certainly not tens of thousands of dollars
09:11 < fenn> and they're making up wild numbers in the millions for bad reasons
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09:14 < fenn> i'm pretty sure a 33B llama will run fine on an old obsolete $100 GPU on ebay like this K80 https://www.ebay.com/itm/195785114075
09:17 < superkuh> CUDA release 11.2 will be the last to actually support the K80. Only 3.7 compute. Ancient. So you'll be battling software deps the entire way.
09:21 < muurkha> eddies are curl, not divergence
09:21 < superkuh> Additionally, it's just two GPU under one coat so it makes it more complex. Given that a modern nvidia 3060 12GB is $225 and two would be $450, it's a much better way to go than a $300 K80.
09:22 < muurkha> divergence does manifest in one dimension, curl doesn't
09:36 < fenn> its a $60 K80 tho
09:37 < fenn> i believe llama.cpp can split a 65B model over two GPUs
09:40 < superkuh> Whoa. Prices have really dropped. 
09:40 < superkuh> The software situation must be dire.
09:42 < fenn> i'm guessing crypto shenanigans
09:43 < superkuh> That's amazing. Thanks for the tip.
09:45 < fenn> does opencl support these old cards?
09:46 < fenn> or is that the wrong level of abstraction
09:48 < superkuh> You'd have to run old nvidia drivers to present an opencl device.
09:49 < superkuh> And hope your distro's opencl headers worked with the old stuff.
09:50 < fenn> it just seems a little silly that we need fancy software to run a bunch of multiply-accumulate operations
10:13 < juri_> I'm sure the nouveau folks wouldn't mind some help.
10:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-022-01212-4
10:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Good read
10:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> The Tolman-Eichenbaum Machine is also interesting as a computational model of the hippocampus and has links to transformers (transformers seem to be a TEM but with softmax)
10:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.04035
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12:41 < fenn> nouveau driver (NVE0) says Compute: WIP
12:43 < fenn> this is hard enough already without also requiring that i know secret and arcane GPU internals and working with barely functional reverse engineered drivers
12:44 < kanzure> i don't like worldcoin but for the fun of it, here are a few links:
12:44 < kanzure> https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2023/07/24/biometric.html
12:44 < fenn> boo hiss
12:44 < fenn> shame
12:44 < fenn> shame
12:44 < kanzure> the parody version: https://twitter.com/officialesc/status/1683019497291038722
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12:44 < kanzure> the anti-legibility version: https://subconscious.substack.com/p/soulbinding-like-a-state
12:58 < alethkit> kanzure: I do wonder if the endpoint of worldcoin would be people gouging eyes out in order to claim UBI for other people
12:58 < alethkit> Or keeping them in captivity
12:58 < alethkit> I could see that happening in certain places if the UBI is high enough
13:00 < fenn> now we know why they made replicants
13:00 < fenn> it's a welfare grifting scheme
13:01 < alethkit> indeed
13:02 < alethkit> I do wonder if you could bioprint irises to fool the Orb
13:02 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Pff just be easier to steal people's biometrics and just kill em
13:03 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Could be a good plot point in a cyberpunk dystopia. The mob kills people and keeps their identities active on the net using AI as a way to farm the dead for UBI
13:03 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Not replicated consciousness or anything just imitation
13:04 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> On this, probably. And the biometrics isn't actually the login iirc they use normal keys it's just the biometrics are tied to the address by a zk proof setup
13:04 < juri_> surely society will do the right thing when the value of a human being is 0.
13:04 < fenn> surely
13:05 < fenn> he followed me home, can we keep him?
13:06 < fenn> *sad human eyes*
13:07 < fenn> we should abandon democracy in favor of structured argumentation
13:07 < fenn> then it doesn't matter if you're human or AI or multinational corporation
13:08 < fenn> if your arguments are better, they're probably a better policy to follow anyway
13:09 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I don't actually believe UBI is viable in any realistic future atm. If we consider an AI timeline where scaling laws cap out and we don't get AGI for a century or so but current tech matures, a large portion of the economy can be automated but we don't get a singularity and only a small percentage of the population can meaningfully contribute.
13:09 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> This is the scenario where UBI is most needed, however companies are likely to pull out of countries with UBI taxes as they no longer need access to the local labour pool as the needed work is all remote. I can't really see a way long timelines don't result in some cyberpunk techno feudalist society where the only people who are even meaningfully in the economic system are programmers/admins,
13:09 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> owners, and blackhats.
13:09 < fenn> i'd argue that entire categories of basic necessities should be funded instead of whatever UBI is doing with dollar bills. then you go into a store, get some food, walk out of the store and take the food home
13:09 < fenn> if multinationals don't pay taxes, don't allow them to do business in your country
13:10 < fenn> if amazon wants to fuck off and colonize the moon, well, that's fine
13:11 < fenn> if some nutter wants to hoard potato chips, that's fine
13:12 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Why would they want to? The rich and "useful" can move with the countries along with their tech. Then you've got a partially techless country left over. Then Amazon's private drone army would go and steal your resources.
13:12 < fenn> if someone wants to drive truckloads of state-sponsored food to another country, you might keep an eye on it
13:12 < fenn> if drone armies are moving strategically significant quantities of resources out of the country, it's time to do something
13:13 < fenn> if amazon's drone armies are bigger than yours, you've already lost
13:13 < fenn> i think we should try to not get to that point
13:14 < fenn> it's not "their" tech, it's IP protected by a government-enforced monopoly
13:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Multinationals don't need to operate in places where no one will pay, they'll pull up stakes and the owners and admins will move as well. You'll get something like the whole dubai expat situation but not as vein.
13:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc>
13:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Like I agree this isn't good but without countries like the USA going China and locking down on rich and skilled labour leaving the country, I don't think it can be usefully countered
13:15 < fenn> who cares? let them leave
13:16 < fenn> it's like people can't even understand the concept of abundance
13:16 < fenn> i'm not trying to oppress the rich
13:16 < fenn> everyone seems to have forgotten the whole purpose of labor saving inventions was to reduce the need to work
13:17 < fenn> when the need to work drops to 0, that is supposed to be a good thing
13:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I think that's short sighted. You want the final non-automated portion of your economy to leave? You'd then need to import their skills to keep your automated society running, or you'd fall behind feudal ancapistan.
13:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc>
13:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It's not about abundance there will be tons but people's wants aren't sufficiently bounded. Ancapistan will eventually want the resources controlled by the husks it surpassed.
13:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Like this is a worst case assuming very long AI timelines where scaling laws stall tommorow
13:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> If you don't have exocorticies or eq, I'm very bearish on the nearterm future
13:21 < fenn> even with today's tech the economy can be mostly automated
13:22 < fenn> the only reason those congolese cobalt miners are hauling sacks of rocks is because the big players don't think cobalt is lucrative enough
13:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> That's more or less my point, people's value to society is basically they're economic value. A UBI is something that relies on altruism and is nice but I think inherently unstable from an economic incentive model if we have time to implement automation throughout society
13:26 < fenn> i used to volunteer at a food bank. about a quarter of the stuff was government surplus (some sort of agreement with native tribes involving perpetual payments of dried fruit), half was local food distributor businesses diverting excess stock, the remainder was local gardens and people like me dumpster diving
13:27 < fenn> the only thing they paid for was the truck to go get the food
13:27 < fenn> since there were no bureacratic checks about who was "eligible" we didn't have any paperwork overhead
13:28 < fenn> so where's the altruism exactly?
13:29 < fenn> there's just all this stuff that's in the wrong place, and it's in your interest to move it to the right place or else you end up with pallets of grapefruit juice stacked up to the roof and nothing else
13:32 < fenn> it's not a coincidence that potlucks were the norm
13:35 < fenn> Could be a good plot point in a cyberpunk utopia. The mob kills people and keeps their identities active on the net using advanced brain scanning and emulation techniques
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14:00 < fenn> i would like to clarify that i always use the word "person" to mean a sentient being with moral worth that is capable of speech
14:02 < fenn> what is the ostensible "deeply held cypherpunk value" that vitalik claims the all-seeing orb solves?
14:03 < fenn> being made legible to the state in a global irrevocable and probably mandatory biometric database is the most un-cypherpunk thing i can imagine
14:15 < fenn> much better article rebutting vitalik's foolishness and/or NSA shilling: https://blog.mollywhite.net/is-acceptably-non-dystopian-self-sovereign-identity-even-possible/
14:20 < L29Ah> vitalik is big state shill by necessity, and should be treated as such
14:21 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah vitalik has done good stuff but ethereum has to pay lip service to the piers that be lest it be dropkicked by big gov
14:21 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> *s/piers/powers/
14:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It's that whole crypto "solar punk" BS
14:24 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-37752-x
14:24 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Trumpet is an operating system for simple and robust cell-free biocomputing
14:24 < L29Ah> https://tinystash.undef.im/il/3TC41ppVTvxwjeBR3AQ1UR4rL95VxjUzdQ8quN25wJ4W4qNj5tMiX41fAYceSoEnny25DZqWmepQebXq6DsuXrVw.jpg posing with .me prime minister a couple of months ago, apparently helping them to implement their CBDC
14:33 < alethkit> L29Ah: Has Vitalik forgotten to diversify his funds away from the reach of OFAC?
14:34 < L29Ah> alethkit: pretty sure he has problems diversifying his body away from the reach of the interested parties
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15:06 < muurkha> fenn: it's usually easier to just chuck your grapefruit juice into a construction dumpster than to ship it to a food bank, but only slightly
15:07 < fenn> i would often dumpster dive at the food bank
15:08 < fenn> the distributors would have had to pay to haul the food away, but the food bank picks it up for free
15:08 < muurkha> aha
15:08 < fenn> so the way i see it, i'm doing the food bank a service by redistributing the food they threw out, even though it's technically illegal
15:08 < muurkha> but that's only a slight difference
15:08 < muurkha> it's illegal?
15:09 < hprmbridge> nmz787> stealing man
15:09 < hprmbridge> nmz787> garbage is still property!
15:09 < fenn> a big organization with lots to lose can't give away food that's expired
15:09 < fenn> garbage is not property once it's on the curb
15:10 < fenn> otherwise the police wouldn't be allowed to steal your mail
15:10 < fenn> anyway you gotta get it before it warms up
15:11 < muurkha> nmz787: in most places garbage is not still property
15:13 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I feel like the "on the curb" thing depends on the state or locality
15:13 < hprmbridge> nmz787> in a dumpster is definitely way more questionable tho I think
15:14 < muurkha> generally it's considered to have been abandoned
15:14 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://ktvz.com/news/2019/12/31/is-collecting-cans-from-curbside-bins-legal-in-oregon/#:~:text=In%20May%2C%20the%20state%20Supreme,containers%20only%20on%20public%20property.
15:14 < hprmbridge> nmz787> "In May, the state Supreme Court said if you leave your garbage and recycling on the curb, in a non-transparent container with the lid closed, you're the only one who can legally sift through it, without your permission. "
15:14 < fenn> uh, what i said was confusing. there was the big time central food bank that supplied various "food pantries" which is where i volunteered. other food pantries had more paperwork because they relied on federal funding and thus had to prove that they were helping people that deserved it. the food bank serviced all of these and also random informal associations like the one where i volunteered. the
15:14 < fenn> food bank can't distribute expired food to food pantries and maintain their legal status
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15:34 < muurkha> so apparently Oregon is an exception
15:34 < muurkha> except if you leave the lid open it's not
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18:44 < L29Ah> 13:21 < fenn> even with today's tech the economy can be mostly automated
18:44 < L29Ah> implying static supply and demand
18:46 < L29Ah> 13:07 < fenn> we should abandon democracy in favor of structured argumentation
18:46 < L29Ah> i don't think structured argumentation scales well beyond a few hundreds of genuinely interested people (or a couple of well-paid trolls)
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 02 00:00:16 2023