--- Log opened Sun Aug 13 00:00:27 2023
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07:31 < CNOT> heyo, do you guys know if there are energy companies that focus on tokamak reactors, that are publicly traded?
07:32 < CNOT> there are plenty of other fusion energy companies out there, but i srsly dont trust the vast majority of non-tokamak-focused companies to deliver
07:35 < CNOT> helion could maybe deliver, but their linear reactor requires He3 as fuel, and have no means of breeding He3
08:21 < CNOT> btw, i srsly doubt inertial confinement fusion to actually take off. when they say they have energy out, they are calculating the energy of the laser beam and divides it with the output energy - but ignoring that it takes LOTS more energy to generate the laser beam than the energy in the laser beam. ICF is a crappy DoD/DoE fusion weapons program in disguise i guess
09:17 < hprmbridge> Eli> Aren’t most/all fusion companies privately funded at this point?
09:17 < L29Ah> not even a single tokamak-based nuclear synthesis ICO
09:18 < L29Ah> even scammers are horrified by ITER
09:18 < superkuh> LPP just started running tests using Boron-11 + hydrogen in their dense plasma focus.
09:19 < superkuh> Oh, er, they start in sept. Not started.
09:19 < superkuh> https://www.lppfusion.com/hydrogen-boron-pb11-tests-to-start-in-september/
09:19 < superkuh> They're always looking for accredited investors.
09:20 < hprmbridge> Eli> Why would any legit fusion company need small time accredited investors?
09:20 < superkuh> Are there 'legit' fusion companies?
09:21 < hprmbridge> Eli> Whoever gates or gigafund invests in is as legit as you’ll get. At least they’ll be vetted
09:21 < superkuh> It seems like they're all either sub-divisions of mega-corps without any real pull, or they're very small time always looking for any money they can get.
09:22 < superkuh> Dense plasma focus make a whole lot more sense than any continuous fusion effort I've ever read about.
09:22 < superkuh> Even if rich people don't think so.
09:22 < hprmbridge> Eli> Fusion requires huge capex. Small times investors would just be a headache.
09:22 < superkuh> If you're doing it wrong, yeah.
09:24 < superkuh> Giant machines that take a decade and billions to make aren't likely to be anything other than jobs programs.
09:24 < hprmbridge> Eli> The gates fusion reactors alleges they’ll start generating electricity in a couple years
09:25 < superkuh> Dense plasma focus scales pretty well up and down. Even a 5 joule machine can make a decent amount of neutrons. https://doi.org/10.1063%2F1.3694746
09:25 < superkuh> Er, this is not a 5 joule machine link.
09:26 < superkuh> Just to the most well known LPP dense plasma focus result which shows it performing favorably compared to extremely expensive/large continuous methods.
09:26 < superkuh> http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Physics/Dense%20Plasma%20Focus/
09:27 < hprmbridge> Eli> There’s a lot of unpublished fusion stuff out there
09:27 < superkuh> They should publish.
09:28 < superkuh> Unrelated, I love this cute little fusion device, http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Physics/Dense%20Plasma%20Focus/Repetitive%20Nanofucus_%20Evidence%20of%20a%20neutron%20and%20x-ray%20emission%20from%20an%20ultra%20minuature%20pinch%20plasma%20focus%20discharge%20operating%20at%20tens%20of%20Hz_%20Leopoldo%20Soto_%20Cristian%20Pavez_%20Jose%20Moreno_%20Luis%20Altamirano_%202006.pdf
09:28 < superkuh> Literally getting neutrons with a <1 joule discharge.
09:28 < hprmbridge> Eli> The unpublished stuff is their most if they commercialize successfully
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09:46 < L29Ah> no pics :O
09:51 < superkuh> http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Physics/Dense%20Plasma%20Focus/nanofocus.gif
09:52 < superkuh> Look at the other papers by Soto et al in the dir.
09:52 < superkuh> That probably wasn't the best one to link.
09:52 < CNOT> ITER is insanely overbudgeted but i think it will eventually work
09:53 < CNOT> there is a quite large probability that someone else gets there first though, since its also sooo over-time
09:53 < CNOT> i think the purpose is basically to just pour monies into fusion
09:53 < superkuh> http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2021/ph241/margraf1/images/f1big.png
09:55 < superkuh> Or with a different scale, https://i.imgur.com/3vYLQmm.png
09:58 < CNOT> meh i guess i will invest my monies into something stupid-boring financial banking instead then
09:59 < CNOT> i hope for humanitys sake that ITER does not take until 2050 to actually result in something that delivers energy to the grid
09:59 < CNOT> i think i read in their documents that they aim for "2nd half of the 21st century" for that^
11:19 < fenn> if you think ITER will deliver energy to the grid, you have no business investing in fusion startups
11:24 < L29Ah> "ITER spinoffs"
11:24 < CNOT> it is somewhat likely that other projects will deliver more early yes
11:34 < fenn> no, i mean ITER is not designed to generate electricity, completely aside from its sluggishness
11:34 < CNOT> and in their documents they also say this, they say, 1st ITER, then a successor, then a comercial reactor, and that they aim for 2nd half of 21st century for commerical results
11:35 < CNOT> maybe i should have been more detailed
11:35 < CNOT> 2nd half of 21st century is liek... toooooooooo late
11:35 < fenn> well it takes 20 years to build something like that, according to the nominal schedule
11:36 < fenn> currently the plan is first fusion at ITER in 2035, so you do the math
11:37 < fenn> pointless brain drain
11:38 < fenn> can you think of any other science experiments that take 35 years to get any results?
11:39 < CNOT> i think the purpose is to make something that will likely work, even though it might be blunt. the main purpose of ITER is to pour moneys into fusion
11:40 < CNOT> not using the best magnets, but just upscaling instead, for example
11:41 < CNOT> it could also be a symptom of our ineffective societies also, comparable with the artemis 
12:19 < docl> hmm. I feel justified in focusing more on atomically precise manufacturing (and its prereqs) than novel energy sources. part of this is simply that if you have APM you can tap existing energy (e.g. fission or solar) far more efficiently. but also it probably unlocks a lot of capabilities like room temperature superconductors and/or temperature control mechanisms that let you use existing 
12:19 < docl> superconductors, which make fusion easier to achieve. furthermore, it seems like fusion is hard to do profitably mainly because of scale issues which could be ameliorated with large scale systems in space, and APM also unlocks cheap access to space. cheap/abundant energy could be useful in a self replicating machine framework though, as you can separate materials into pure form from scrap and random 
12:19 < docl> rock via high energy routes
13:08 < fenn> it's not even especially energetically costly compared to separating ores into metal the conventional way
13:09 < fenn> in space, heat rejection becomes much more of an issue. high working temperature materials lets you get away with smaller structures
13:10 < fenn> we don't even need fusion for energy in space though, thin film solar is there already (e.g. CIGS)
13:11 < fenn> this is all ignoring the real issues blocking progress, which are political and organizational in nature
13:11 < fenn> possibly a global conspiracy
13:34 < CNOT> are you guys like hyper-optimistic but also conspiratoric
13:35 < CNOT> myself i am a bit of a dystopian. we are simultanously approaching peak-humanity, as we are making humongous progress
13:36 < docl> I figure most of the social stuff is lame perverse incentive stuff rather than an organized conspiracy
13:40 < docl> people overoptimizing their own prestige and narrow economic advantages (and their allies), not really seeing it as their concern whether humanity makes much progress
13:41 < CNOT> or in other words, the bad part of human nature
13:41 < CNOT> overall it has been positive though, fortuneately
13:46 < docl> well it generalizes in principle to game theoretic agents other than just humans, but basically yes
14:05 < docl> a glassblowing desktop device seems like a high alpha project. like, every chemist needs glassware. and you could use it to make vacuum tubes
14:34 < fenn> global oil revenue is several trillion dollars. it's hard to believe that none of that goes towards taking out potential competitors with dirty tricks, especially while the competitors are small and have no influence
14:34 < fenn> the nuclear power industry has been effectively neutralized by "safety" regulation
14:34 < fenn> (i.e. paperwork)
14:35 < fenn> it was easy to conflate cold war apocalyptic hysteria with the nuclear power industry
14:35 < fenn> just a little push
14:36 < fenn> to disrupt fusion power research, all you'd need to do is corrupt a few bureaucrats indirectly in charge of research funding, and direct it toward useless crap like ITER instead
14:37 < fenn> it might even be in their own self interest to do so, if it brings money to their home turf, no conspiracy needed for that
14:38 < fenn> to enable something like that, you could lobby to have a particular bureaucrat instated, who is likely to make the wrong decision. the politician doing the appointment doesn't know anything so it doesn't look bad to them
15:03 < kanzure> yes this is the center of hyper optimism
15:03 < kanzure> you found it
15:17 < docl> I still find it almost a bit weird that nobody with modest means has ever decided the ozone layer has to go. we actually managed to roll back the chlorine content to near zero with regulations somehow. also if you think about it, we went through a fair number of of decades of zero people having the idea to crash a jet into a skyscraper, and when it did happen there was a protracted middle eastern 
15:17 < docl> conflict apparently motivating it. it's not that people are never bad, I guess, just that the combination of smarts, means, not caring about social consequences, and not having ethics is fairly rare
15:22 < docl> I wonder how that startup that had the idea to tie up the IRS phone lines and sell access to it as a service is doing
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15:28 < hprmbridge> kanzure> apparently there is an austin clinic that offers this too https://maxwellclinic.com/therapeutic-plasma-exchange/
15:35 < fenn> nice. how much does it cost?
15:35 < hprmbridge> kanzure> No idea
15:35 < fenn> they talk a lot about alzheimers. can anyone just walk in and get the treatment?
15:36 < fenn> heh they also offer ketamine infusions
15:37 < docl> doesn't dilluting blood serum with albumin supposedly work
15:38 < fenn> that's the general idea they're working with, yes
15:41 < docl> so uh is it fine to use egg white powder in a sterile saline base or do you need to use say bovine blood albumin
15:42 < docl> assuming no egg allergy, that is
15:43 < fenn> you use human albumin
15:43 < fenn> could be recombinant
15:44 < fenn> please don't inject random proteins
15:45 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_serum_albumin
15:46 < docl> ok that makes more sense
15:46 < fenn> when replacing large volumes of blood plasma with saline, you get osmotic shock. it's possible that this is a non-issue if performed over a long period of time, like several days
15:47 < fenn> i'm no doctor
15:48 < fenn> ideally we'd know which proteins are pro-aging and isolate that specific plasma fraction. the science just isn't there yet
15:48 < docl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_rice#Production_of_recombinant_proteins
15:48 < docl> apparently there's genetically modified rice to produce HSA
15:49 < fenn> for tissue culture, apparently
15:52 < fenn> "In 2017, OsrHSA entered the human clinical trial stage in China. Previously, researchers completed experiments in rats, monkeys, rabbits and other animals. The results show human serum albumin extracted from rice has no significant difference from human plasma extraction, and by some measures is even better."
15:52 < fenn> cool
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16:03 < docl> https://www.lifespan.io/topic/albumin-as-a-blood-biomarker-of-aging/
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16:07 < L29Ah> [09.03.2023 22:51:20] L29Ah: albumin? fuck albumin
16:07 < L29Ah> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7055200/
16:12 < docl> treating blood loss != antiaging treatment
16:13 < docl> it would be interesting if hydroxethyl starch or something has an antiaging effect, from increasing the effective concentration of the albumin or something
16:14 < docl> "Certain disease states can raise serum albumin" maybe if you select the right disease state (not dehydration) from an infectious disease and breed it to be harmless you can increase albumin that way
16:36 < fenn> summary of the article: "For patients with hypovolaemia, there is no evidence that albumin reduces mortality when compared with cheaper alternatives such as saline."
16:36 < fenn> docl you are missing the point entirely
16:37 < fenn> if albumin restored youth it would have been noticed by now
16:43 < docl> so it's about replacement of bad albumin with good albumin?
16:43 < fenn> no, it's not about albumin at all
16:43 < fenn> it's some other thing that gets tossed out. the albumin is just to rehydrate you
16:44 < fenn> if we had said "saline" instead of "albumin" you would be off looking at crystal healing sites with himalayan rock salt
16:45 < docl> no, the article I cited talks about albumin going down as a mortality predicting age marker
16:45 < fenn> unsurprisingly, the body goes out of homeostasis with age
16:45 < fenn> it's pretty much the definition of aging, if the field weren't so philosophically bankrupt it WOULD be the definition of aging
16:46 < fenn> muscle mass goes down with age. are muscles something we should focus on to live longer?
16:47 < fenn> bone mass goes down with age. are bones...?
16:51 < docl> adding depleted hormones seems to make people healthier on the surface, but not live longer. so clearly fixing homeostasis isn't the full picture. I agree that this is about something getting tossed out. what I'm not sure of is if that's described as bad albumin or something else (what?)
16:52 < docl> maybe it's a complex set of bad biomolecules
16:52 < docl> malfunctioning immune proteins maybe
16:53 < fenn> we don't know
16:55 < hprmbridge> Eli> Yes
16:56 < fenn> afaik SCID mice die of old age
16:57 < docl> it does seem like albumin going below 3.8 or so is a hazard in its own right, so it's not clear to me that it's unnecessary to supplement it. probably has to do with liver aging. maybe if you discard the bad unknown factors enough the liver regenerates or resumes producing at normal levels though?
17:03 < docl> apparently inflammation still happens in scid mice https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28355107/
17:05 < L29Ah> i wonder if chopping pieces of liver away to force it to regenerate is better than have an aged liver
17:16 < L29Ah> > International scientists led by Dr Olaf Bergmann at the Center for Regenerative Therapies Dresden (CRTD) at TU Dresden used a technique known as retrospective radiocarbon birth dating to determine the age of the human liver and demonstrated that no matter the person’s age, the liver is always on average less than three years old.
17:23 < docl> signalling molecules seem like a possible culprit, given the chronological nature of development and the tendency for aging to occur outside the reproductive window. that said, being confused about what to specialize into doesn't seem to be a thing that happens in aging (outside of cancer / growths). maybe there's a mechanism where the presence of incorrect/inconsistent molecular signals results in a 
17:23 < docl> general reduction to all signal hitting the expression mechanism, such that the signal is weakened and the cell generally ends up specializing correctly but with reduced function. like turning down the volume on a noisy radio signal
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18:38 < jrayhawk> re: "chopping pieces of liver away to force it to regenerate" that is standard of care in most of the western world. unfortunately inflammation + oxidative stress + growth signaling is a recipe for cancer.
18:40 < jrayhawk> meanwhile the hepatic steatosis we do the majority of such surgeries for is just a simple choline deficiency
18:41 < jrayhawk> it is like doing skin grafts for scurvy or bone adjustments surgery for rickets without touching the underlying deficiency
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