--- Log opened Mon Aug 21 00:00:00 2023
--- Day changed Mon Aug 21 2023
00:00 < jrayhawk> planet of the doge
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01:22 < fenn> PSA: wifi is imaging radar https://arxiv.org/abs/2301.00250 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmpyDAFXoAEFDo3?format=jpg&name=orig
01:22 < fenn> don't worry, it's "privacy preserving"
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01:38 < jrayhawk> the stupidest, most inefficient radar
01:41 < jrayhawk> i could get 24 wifi antennae stably mounted all around a small room to estimate poses inside of it OR, and I know this is going to blow your mind, I could use a single unstabilized camera.
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02:11 < muurkha> jrayhawk: you probably don't need that many antennas, and the great benefit of the antennas is that they can see through curtains and walls
02:12 < jrayhawk> were any of those things true, it would make for an interesting paper
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02:19 < muurkha> well, for example, the paper you linked used only 6 antennas
02:19 < jrayhawk> No, it uses six *devices*, each of which is 3x3mimo
02:20 < muurkha> not according to figure 1
02:21 < muurkha> sorry, the paper fenn linked
02:21 < muurkha> and lots of papers in the past have shown that wifi works pretty well for this kind of thing through walls
02:22 < muurkha> and you're probably aware that curtains don't affect wifi significantly.  they usually don't even affect it detectably
02:23 < muurkha> windows either
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02:52 < jrayhawk> Oh, no, you're right. I thought they were doing stitching with something like https://wands.sg/research/wifi/AtherosCSI/ to get their accuracy.
03:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/us-rent-womb-industry-thrives-due-demand-parents-china-researcher
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04:02 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/pronatalists-save-mankind-by-having-babies-silicon-valley/
04:41 < muurkha> well, I think they are, it's just that their M and N are 3 rather than 12 as you thought
05:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what would a human executive non-dysfunction competition look like
05:14 < muurkha> people refusing to waste their time on a competition
05:15 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yeah but it would be nice to know if there's like three more sigmas to the right possible on demonstrable executive function
05:19 < muurkha> hmm.  olympic athletes?  actual non-metaphorical executives?  Buddhist monks?  Catholic monks?
05:19 < kanzure> general agency i suppose
05:20 < muurkha> who are the people with the strongest agency?
05:21 < kanzure> an interesting question, although i guess i'd have to define strength of agency and then also agency
05:24 < muurkha> perhaps entrepreneurs?  founders of religious cults?  demagogues?
05:24 < muurkha> or the candidates I mentioned earlier
05:24 < kanzure> are there catholic monks?
05:48 < jrayhawk> yes
06:45 < hprmbridge> Eli> The woman in that photo can’t conceive normally so she does ivs and had a major eating disorder. It seems like they are fighting nature.
06:47 < hprmbridge> Eli> They should buy eggs from anyone who competed in CrossFit world games
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07:08 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Why are there so many EA people who insist on spending all the "weirdness points" and causing the public to associate EA with "weird cult stuff".
07:08 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Like the notion of choosing your work and your charity donations in such a way to maximise for an outcome is the best possible approach more or less so long as you choose the correct outcome measure.
07:08 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> However EA is now wrapped up in FTX, "Big Yud", and all this stuff. Like I agree birth rates are to low but these people are doing nothing for PR
07:09 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> And PR is important because if more people took an rational analytic approach to global issues we'd be in a better place, so it would be rational for them to "curb the weirdness" even if it locally reduces their outcome measure just for the fact that the improvement in PR would likely have a greater positive impact
07:13 < L29Ah> can't easily find the right ratio of PR to direct action
07:14 < L29Ah> the Schelling point is to do minimal PR
07:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> True, but doin
07:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> sorry accidently hit enter
07:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> True, but avoiding poisioning the well isn't tooo hard. Like we can ignore bankman because he was just a selfish arse using EA for his own ends, but your average longtermist could likely mellow out a bit.
07:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Like they use probability estimates but the knightian unceirtantity in their calculations is so great those estimates aren't much good and acting like they are isn't rational it just leads to them saying "the rational thing is to invest *all* our money into AI safety" which really doesn't fly with most people
07:20 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> like I agree AI safety is an issue with a massive downside if not done, however by arguing for a more palletable policy you could get a greater amount of funding for AI safety work by the fact you just have more people in the EA community because it's closer to the overton window
07:21 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Also the results from MIRI and co is less than ideal compared to their funding which is a different discussion
07:36 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Okay  I have a new irrational fear to consume my nights, thunderbolt space-times
07:36 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/exploring-the-wave-of-death-in-spacetime.93654/
07:36 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://arxiv.org/abs/1509.01378
07:36 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0207054.pdf
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08:48 < kanzure> hello NewtonTrendy
08:48 < NewtonTrendy> hi
08:48 < kanzure> what brings you here
08:48 < NewtonTrendy> rapamycin, everolimus, pe21 extract
08:52 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> You're trying to  prevent organ rejection
08:52 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> ? Lol
09:02 < kanzure> organ rejection is usually bad
09:02 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It usually is, I'm just guessing at Newton's goals
09:03 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'm kinda interested in organ rejection tbh. Where are the 3D printed cellular scaffolds for transplants I was promised
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11:36 < juri_> alonzoc: i'm working on it, but there is just one of me.
11:45 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Ha, sad that sci-fi style cloning is further down the tech tree than organ cloning then
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12:51 < hprmbridge> Eli> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa1414850
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12:52 < hprmbridge> Eli>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1143271451701551114/image.png
12:52 < hprmbridge> Eli> Peanut allergies almost entirely due to advice by government to not feed peanuts to children
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14:48 < CNOT> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MBgz9h7GGM
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16:08 < jrayhawk> an extreme aversive response to peanut agglutenin is the correct response to peanut agglutenin https://academic.oup.com/carcin/article/42/8/1079/6315265
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16:17 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Dry roasted peanuts are worth some carcinogenesis
16:18 < jrayhawk> the cancer angle on that paper is dumb; the more interesting angles for endothelial adhesion and permeability are in kidney disease, heart disease, brain disease, etc.
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16:19 < L29Ah> > Multiple studies have found associations between nut consumption and reduced risk of cancer mortality. 
16:19 < L29Ah> > peanut-institute.com
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16:20 < jrayhawk> if you norm on pathology, you can make any conclusion you want
16:21 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Hmm, interesting but tbh a lot of food we consume has bad health effects. Food. It's bad for you but you gotta eat something.
16:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'd be surprised if someone could find something that doesn't trigger some destructiveness. Well ignoring the fact metabolism itself leads to oxidisation, mitochondrial damage, etc
16:23 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'm just a shill for big peanut
16:23 < L29Ah> i recommend amino acids, starch and essential PUFAs
16:24 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Mmm tasty nutrient paste
16:24 < L29Ah> boring protein like gelatin is fine too
16:24 < L29Ah> alonzoc: amino acids are tasty!
16:25 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> This was almost a necessity for me at one point, I was so sick they considered putting me on the elemental diet
16:25 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I like my amino acids in bacon form
16:26 < L29Ah> if it's stored properly, lacks prions and cooked at <130°C, you're hopefully fine
16:26 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> What's with the capital A with a hat in a lot of the bridge messages?
16:26 < L29Ah> mind tho that animals biomagnify heavy metals
16:27 < jrayhawk> probably the bot failing to understand UTF-16
16:27 < L29Ah> what utf-16? no utf-16 in my IRC!
16:28 < jrayhawk> UTF-16‽
16:28 < jrayhawk> In *MY* IRC?
16:28 < jrayhawk> It's more likely than you think!
16:29 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah how else do I get my daily dose of mercury! It's required for peak mental function
16:29 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Well I see garbage chars on this
16:31 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Pff just gimme good ol' ascii encoding! The *correct* way to handle text
16:31 < jrayhawk> heavy metals bioaccumulate in predators, but most human cultures don't typically eat predators (swordfish being a dangerous exception)
16:32 < jrayhawk> high-level predators, rather
16:33 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Huh, interesting. Eating predators seems to be problematic for multiple reasons beyond acquisition. See: dog livers
16:34 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Also reminds me of stuff on phytomining I read about
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17:02 < NewtonTrendy> alonzoc are you still there, i thought hprmbridge was talking to someone
17:02 < NewtonTrendy> everolimus has been proven to cause on average a 60% increase in lifespan in mice
17:02 < NewtonTrendy> up to 400%
17:03 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'm still here. wow.
17:03 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> We got a mechanism for that?
17:03 < NewtonTrendy> pe21 the white willow extract, as seen in all sorts of symbology does the same but is less well known despite being essentially aspirin
17:04 < NewtonTrendy> i have the theory its how some people lived long enough to have their lifespan exagerated in the bible (some of them are said to have lived 200 years)
17:04 < NewtonTrendy> drinking young blood and eating lamb etc is another way
17:05 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Hmm everolimus is a mTOR inhibitor, that could have some side-effects as it would likely inhibit all sorts of vascular growth iirc
17:05 < L29Ah> NewtonTrendy: could you please link the 400% paper?
17:05 < NewtonTrendy> the wiki is bad
17:05 < NewtonTrendy> yes one min
17:06 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Hmmmm not sure why that extends life, would be amazing though
17:08 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'm still skeptical on simple drugs being able to meaningfully extend lifespan or reverse aging on the level we want. Aging is a multifaceted process so repairing that damage is likely to be involved imo
17:08 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> However preventing that damage in the first place might be simpler so it might be simpler than I think
17:09 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Tbh my aging science knowledge is very rudimentary compared to most here
17:11  * L29Ah inserts metformin
17:12 < NewtonTrendy> cell biology: harvard medical: rapamycin, one drug many uses also geroscience 2021 43 1135-1158
17:12 < NewtonTrendy> theres one more im looking for
17:12 < NewtonTrendy> i mean theres lots
17:12 < L29Ah> pretty sure adjusting the immune response is a crucial component of fighting aging, since it allows for elimination of senescent cells and malignancies, maybe even scars in the far future
17:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah immune and epigenetic reprogramming are the bits I'm most interested in
17:14 < NewtonTrendy> J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci, 2016 Vol 71 No 7 841-849
17:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> However I'm wary, the immune system for one is balanced on a knifes edge of being just a hair off being so aggressive it screws you over
17:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> However it's defenitely the stuff I'm most interested in
17:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Reprogramming T-cells for fighting cancer for one is like magic
17:16 < NewtonTrendy> pe21: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6791382/ <= not as conclusive
17:16 < L29Ah> NewtonTrendy: scihub doesn't like your reference
17:16 < NewtonTrendy> which one
17:17 < L29Ah> both
17:17 < NewtonTrendy> ill upload the paper i dont care
17:17 < hprmbridge> kanzure> .gpt inser the typical kanzurean response here about why focusing on germline for anti-aging is less difficult and more fruitful
17:17 < L29Ah> :**
17:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Huh interesting
17:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Hahahaha
17:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> You gonna wait on ethics committee sign off on that? 🙃
17:20 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> <Insert standard press release about how we shouldn't play God>
17:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> only if the ethics is not corrupt
17:20 < L29Ah> the ethics committee doesn't even allow kanzure to buy metformin duh
17:21 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah but don't you know Metformin has substantial room for abuse
17:21 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> People defo go out to get high on Metformin.....
17:22 < NewtonTrendy> we.tl/t-n9ylWrRNtI
17:23 < NewtonTrendy> sory about the appauling quality and out of order pages
17:23 < NewtonTrendy> there are hundreds of references tho
17:23 < L29Ah> You need a JavaScript-enabled browser to use WeTransfer
17:23 < L29Ah> :O
17:23 < NewtonTrendy> which one should i use
17:24 < L29Ah> https://tinystash.undef.im/ warez proudly hosted by pavel durov
17:24 < L29Ah> https://0x0.st/ bigger file size limit, low storage period, low tolerance to abuse
17:27 < NewtonTrendy> well ill see if it uploads to tinystash, as its uploading now
17:30 < NewtonTrendy> too large, url -F'file=@yourfile.png' https://0x0.st
17:30 < NewtonTrendy> https://0x0.st/HLR1.zip
17:31 < NewtonTrendy> thats all three of the ones i mentioned
17:33 < NewtonTrendy> if you feel like letting me know how i access the referenced papers id like to know
17:34 < L29Ah> omg literal papers
17:34 < NewtonTrendy> yes
17:34 < L29Ah> next time share the "doi:" things mentioned in the heading
17:34 < L29Ah> most likely they can yield PDFs when inserted into scihub
17:35 < NewtonTrendy> they were given to me by the hospital pharmacist after i was hospitalised for saying drugs that make us live longer could be a reason to solve things
17:35 < NewtonTrendy> im only showing you im not saying everyone can access it
17:36 < NewtonTrendy> ah ok thanks
17:49 < L29Ah> couldn't find the 400% figure in neither; the best i see for wild-type mice is "> 100%" at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8190242/ but in the referenced paper itself i can't find what is the figure related to
17:49 < NewtonTrendy> there were 3
17:49 < L29Ah> for the reference, the papers NewtonTrendy provided are: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3972801/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8190242/ https://dacemirror.sci-hub.se/journal-article/7dc3edcb4aba1f40cb0645bebc3a4b4d/arriolaapelo2016.pdf?download=true
17:53 < NewtonTrendy> p843 doi:10.1093/gerona/glw090 mentions 292% increase p1139 doi:10.1007/s11357-020-00274-1 says 440%
17:57 < NewtonTrendy> these are edge cases its an average of 60%
18:00 < L29Ah> the huge increases are observed in intentionally and specifically crippled mice against their less lucky crippled partners in the study
18:17 < NewtonTrendy> does it say why that makes the percentage significant
18:18 < NewtonTrendy> i read as much as i could stomach and all i took from it is that the 400% increase was from everolimus
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18:50 < muurkha> jrayhawk: the only predators humans coommonly eat are pigs and dogs, and both of those are pretty controversial
18:54 < muurkha> *com
19:03 < L29Ah> ok, apparently lead content of pig and chicken meat is comparable to plants; bones concentrate it more but aren't traditionally eaten
19:04  * L29Ah is still annoyed about his lack of robust food-grade Ca source
19:10 < muurkha> I guess chickens are predators of insects
19:11 < muurkha> do insects and chickens concentrate mercury?
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21:28 < hprmbridge> nyxtelius> is it clear what ADRB1 does?
22:30 < fenn> simone collins' bio says she "relinquished a leadership post at one of the world's most exclusive private societies" to run her school for the gifted. is it known what that private society might be?
22:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> i will ask that in 8 hours
22:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> anything else to ask them?
22:43 < fenn> this is too funny https://imgur.com/a/KltfH
22:43 < fenn> nowadays putting something like that together would be trivial with stable diffusion
22:48 < fenn> ask why they think a "well rounded education" is important
22:49 < fenn> to the extent of expelling students for not doing tests in subjects they aren't interested in, apparently
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23:16 < fenn> hmm
23:16 < fenn> "got roasted last month for saying any man that is muscular past the age of 30 is a failure because the male body is meant to have low testosterone as it settles down and starts a family"
23:16 < fenn> twitter is out of order so i shan't be verifying, but that's pretty lame if true
23:18 < jrayhawk> the big drops happen around 45-50, and you don't need much in terms of inputs to maintain lean mass built earlier
23:20 < fenn> i meant the value judgement
23:20 < fenn> if it's true that they said that on the jointly operated twitter handle
23:26 < fenn> wow she sure gets downvoted a lot, that's sad
23:32 < fenn> "Amateur mermaid here- we use special gel coating drops in our eyes." hope you learn something new everyday
--- Log closed Tue Aug 22 00:00:07 2023