--- Log opened Sun Sep 17 00:00:25 2023
00:19 -!- codaraxis___ [~codaraxis@user/codaraxis] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:23 -!- codaraxis__ [~codaraxis@user/codaraxis] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
01:39 -!- Hooloovoo [~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org] has quit [Server closed connection]
01:39 -!- Hooloovoo [~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:03 -!- test__ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:06 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:06 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:07 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:08 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:20 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:20 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:47 < juri_> muurkha: i've still got at least a year of work to go, but thanks. :)
03:53 < alethkit> Ah, right
04:47 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:11c4:9542:7b06:9cdd] has joined #hplusroadmap
05:07 -!- stipa_ [~stipa@user/stipa] has joined #hplusroadmap
05:07 -!- stipa [~stipa@user/stipa] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:07 -!- stipa_ is now known as stipa
06:11 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has left #hplusroadmap []
06:43 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:47 -!- heath3 is now known as heath
07:48 -!- heath [~heath@user/heath] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.7]
07:48 -!- heath [~heath@user/heath] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:01 -!- s0ph1a_ is now known as s0ph1a
08:28 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamamoe@46.204.76.74] has joined #hplusroadmap
09:27 -!- yorick [~yorick@user/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:29 -!- yorick [~yorick@user/yorick] has joined #hplusroadmap
11:08 < fenn> is everyone going to just forget that science fiction fans defeated the soviet union? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Advisory_Council_on_National_Space_Policy
11:08 < fenn> Participant Gregory Benford wrote, "we settled on recommending a position claiming at least the moral high ground, if not high orbits. Defense was inevitably more stabilizing than relying on hair-trigger offense, we argued. ... Years later I heard straight from a senior Soviet advisor that the U.S. SDI had been the straw that broke the back of the military's hold on foreign policy."
11:57 < jrayhawk> a suspiciously vague and unaccountable claim
12:33 < jrayhawk> i have it on good authority that i, personally, was the proximal cause of every military detente since the date of my birth. i will not say who this authority is.
12:36 < jrayhawk> meanwhile, back in reality, liberal democratic reformers were already getting the ball moving after brezhnev's death in 1982, a year before the scifi clownshow of the SDI started.
12:39 < fenn> fine, is everyone going to just forget that science fiction fans last-hit the soviet union, stealing liberal democratic reformers' kill
12:40 < fenn> i asked a rabidly russian propaganda spreading resident of samara whether he believed the SDI story, and he said that no, the soviet union was rotting from within due to natural human corruption
12:40 < jrayhawk> gorbachev himself considered chernobyl to be the most significant hit, which was a product of reckless nuclear proliferation
12:41 < fenn> hit to what?
12:41 < jrayhawk> the soviet union
12:41 < fenn> their credibility?
12:42 < jrayhawk> internal credibility, maybe, if you're going to try to frame it that way
12:44 < fenn> chernobyl was a result of politicians making engineering decisions and suppression of dissent, which we can also pile on the camel's back
12:45 < jrayhawk> moscow was demanding dangerous quotas on the entire nuclear industry
12:46 < fenn> oh, right
12:54 < jrayhawk> keep in mind the scifi community also brought us scientology. they are not unburdened by dangerous narcissists.
12:59 < fenn> the point i was trying to make was that smallish groups of nerds meeting in houses can actually create significant global outcomes through policy advocacy
13:01 < fenn> i am actually somewhat impressed by how scientology actually seems to have its organizational shit together
13:01 < fenn> unlike most organizations
13:01 < jrayhawk> it's amazing the feats one stalin can achieve
13:02 < fenn> by any standard their product is worse than useless, and ought to have dissolved long ago, and yet it survives and prospers
13:02 < fenn> imagine if the same people were working on something useful!
13:18 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:21 < jrayhawk> relatedly, it was pointed out to me the other week that the liberal devotees of post-soviet economic "shock therapy" knew kleptocratic privatization was an inevitability, but considered it an acceptable cost to pay in order to ensure the permanent dismantling of the communist party power apparatus
13:21 < jrayhawk> what a fascinatingly horrible position to be in
13:22 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamamoe@46.204.76.74] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:42 < muurkha> fenn: for a group to work on something useful, it has to have a culture of not lying about what their product can deliver
13:43 < muurkha> this inevitably means that they can't promise things that are as appealing as what shameles liars can promise
13:43 < muurkha> *shameless
13:44 < muurkha> groups like Scientology survive because there are always some people who will go for the shameless lies
14:15 < juri_> tell me that i am better than my neighbor, and that i'm morally right to kill them, and.. well, luckily that only works on some people.
14:17 < muurkha> virtually all people; pacifists are a tiny minority
14:18 < muurkha> but, as far as I know, Scientologists don't promote any non-mainstream views about who it is morally right to kill when
14:20 < juri_> they do teach not going to the authorities when sexually assualted, and there are some people who have disappeared around them.
14:20 < TMA> jrayhawk: "communist party power apparatus" was not dismantled. it was just as kleptocratically privatized as everything else
14:23 < jrayhawk> it murders as a matter of convenience rather than as a matter of fanaticism, and is much more feudally fractured than the council/presidium that came before it.
14:25 < TMA> you know, free market, concurrence as opposed to monopoly
14:26 < TMA> but there are tendencies to concentrate the power
14:26 < TMA> (as seen in .ru .pl .hu .sk and other post-communist countries)
14:26 < jrayhawk> the remnants of the apparatus is attempting to enforce a monopoly on hierarchy in order to combat hierarchy in the manner of enforcing a monopoly on violence to compat violence (and is now deeply struggling with a monopoly on violence, even)
14:27 < jrayhawk> er, is no longer capable of enforcing a monopoly on hierarchy [...]
14:27 < muurkha> juri_: not going to the authorities when injured by somebody within your community is standard in every community.  you'll find the same commandment in biker gangs, Romani, the New Testament, the Amish, any prison gang, and on and on.  acknowledging a secular power as superior to your religious or cultural power is simply the dissolution of your community and its assimilation by a more powerful one
14:28 < muurkha> of course, having a separate community in that way is a necessary (and damn near sufficient) prerequisite for believing that killing is justified at times when that secular power would claim that it wasn't
14:29 < muurkha> but in the cases I'm familiar with where the Scientologists have killed people, there wasn't any sort of claim inside the church that the killing was justified
14:29 < muurkha> more that it was an unfortunate accident that should be covered up to protect the guilty
14:39 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:41 < juri_> i'm not sure what point you're making, other than religious frevor is bad. can't argue with that.
14:42 < jrayhawk> Margery Wakefield describes murder being planned for Paullette Cooper and Paulette Cooper describes it being attmpted (badly) http://www.xenu-directory.net/accounts/cooper19970911-3.html
14:42 < jrayhawk> http://www.xenu-directory.net/documents/wakefield19900413.html
14:43 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:43 -!- test__ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:43 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:42 -!- codaraxis__ [~codaraxis@user/codaraxis] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:46 -!- codaraxis___ [~codaraxis@user/codaraxis] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
17:02 -!- mxz [~mxz@user/mxz] has quit [Quit: cya]
17:03 -!- mxz [~mxz@user/mxz] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:55 -!- Croran [~Croran@user/Croran] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:57 -!- Croran [~Croran@user/Croran] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:14 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:11c4:9542:7b06:9cdd] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:17 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has left #hplusroadmap []
20:23 < muurkha> juri_: Hmm, I guess I didn't communicate very clearly, since I wasn't attempting to show that religious fervor is bad, and don't believe it.
20:24 < muurkha> the point I was making is that, as far as I know, Scientologists don't promote any non-mainstream views about who it is morally right to kill when, and your response that "they do teach not going to the authorities when sexually assaulted" does not tend to show that they do promote any such non-mainstream views
20:24 < muurkha> "there are some people who have disappeared" does, but it's very weak evidence
20:27 < muurkha> the Cooper case does
20:28 < muurkha> but it still doesn't seem like the moral sanction to kill your neighbors is a major attractant to Scientology, which is what "tell me that i am better than my neighbor, and that i'm morally right to kill them, and.. well, luckily that only works on some people" seems to imply in context
20:39 -!- Croran [~Croran@user/Croran] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:40 -!- Croran [~Croran@user/Croran] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:30 -!- test__ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:33 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:33 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:34 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:40 -!- mxz [~mxz@user/mxz] has quit [Quit: cya]
21:41 -!- mxz [~mxz@user/mxz] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:10 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamamoe@46.204.76.74] has joined #hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Mon Sep 18 00:00:26 2023