--- Log opened Mon Sep 18 00:00:26 2023
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04:05 < nsh> .t https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/astron-aerospace-has-come-up-with-a-mini-engine-that-weighs-just-35-pounds-and-produces-160-horsepower/
04:05 < EmmyNoether> Astron Aerospace Has Come Up With a Mini-Engine That Weighs Just 35 Pounds And Produces 160 Horsepower
04:13 < L29Ah> cool, how many hours until a major service?
04:14 < L29Ah> otherwise looks like a perfect engine for a personal VTOL vehicle
04:17 < nsh> watched the space advisory council meeting from feb last night, was somewhat heartening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoBQq3rhHuA
04:17 < nsh> .t
04:18 < EmmyNoether> The National Space Council Users' Advisory Group Meeting - YouTube
04:18 < nsh> if a bit pedestrian
04:20 < nsh> .t https://avi-loeb.medium.com/the-im1-spherules-from-the-pacific-ocean-have-extrasolar-composition-f025cb03dec6
04:21 < EmmyNoether> The IM1 Spherules from the Pacific Ocean Have Extrasolar Composition | by Avi Loeb | Aug, 2023 | Medium
04:21 < nsh> 'Early analysis shows that some spherules from the meteor path contain "extremely high abundances" of an unheard-of composition of heavy elements. Researchers on the team say the composition of beryllium, lanthanum and uranium, labeled as a "BeLaU" composition, does not match terrestrial alloys natural to Earth or fallout from nuclear explosions. Additionally, the composition is not found in magma oceans of Earth, nor the moon, Mars or other natural bodies in 
04:21 < nsh> the solar system.'
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07:32 < jrayhawk> https://twitter.com/deschscoveries/status/1697538023666397513 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY985qzn7oI
07:40 < hprmbridge> Eli> anyone know enough about the immune system to know if this is legit? https://pme.uchicago.edu/news/inverse-vaccine-shows-potential-treat-multiple-sclerosis-and-other-autoimmune-diseases
07:49 < jrayhawk> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2021.657768/full is a pretty good review
07:53 < jrayhawk> it has a lot of potential as a band-aid fix, though it's not really addressing etiology of why the immune system would have such poor specificity or why the immune system would be pissed off in the first place
07:58 < jrayhawk> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/PMC6053098/ we already know and can treat the fundamental cause of multiple sclerosis, for instance
08:00 < jrayhawk> via much cheaper, more ubiquitous, and self-managed means
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09:36 < jrayhawk> avi loeb getting the galileo project funded might actually be a bad career move as it moves him from epistemically inconsequential self-aggrandizement to the realm of legible malfeasance
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10:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://youtu.be/2C8MTMYGBhw
10:41 < Muaddib> [2C8MTMYGBhw] Zyrus Etcher, STM Tip Fabricator (5:58)
10:54 < fenn> getting galileo funded is more important than avi loeb
10:55 < fenn> maybe a poor long term strategy
11:00 < jrayhawk> i don't understand what argument you're making, there
11:02 < fenn> that avi loeb is more concerned with the holy cause than what happens to him personally
11:02 < jrayhawk> galileo *is* loeb, and it is doing immense reputational damage to harvard and a fair amount of damage to the field of astronomy itself
11:03 < fenn> there's like 50 scientists onboard
11:03 < jrayhawk> via loeb-driven selection processes at many different levels
11:04 < jrayhawk> and no, he does appear to be a career narcissist interested in taking credit for advances in science rather than someone interested in advancing science.
11:04 < jrayhawk> an inhibitor of a department, similar to minsky
11:07 < jrayhawk> right now he's trying to maneuver his way into claiming having found the first interstellar asteroid in a way only plausible to an illiterate media and a post-facto historical narrative he's angrily fighting to control
11:08 < fenn> what narrative?
11:09 < fenn> you mean the narrative that he found something? rather than the competing narrative that he didn't find anything?
11:11 < jrayhawk> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNEOS_2014-01-08 among other things, yes
11:13 < fenn> yeah i read the paper
11:13 < fenn> but the whole situation is way more complicated than the origin of spherules found on the seafloor near papua new guinea
11:13 < jrayhawk> well, the fact that you're reducing it to that paper suggests you need more context
11:14 < jrayhawk> its status as an intersteller object is also a loeb interpretation based on flimsy data
11:14 < fenn> sure
11:15 < fenn> we also have the mysteriously suddenly eager to please space force, saying "hey look at this meteor"
11:16 < fenn> and then the wider UFO phenomenon going back in history, and the recent US government willingness to engage
11:17 < fenn> it is quite literally a conspiracy theory
11:18 < fenn> when mainstream media suddenly has license to cover something sensational, they will, and loeb gets to be the center of attention
11:19 < fenn> if there were a harvard task force on 9/11 inside job evidence, and the government was grumbling about that (demanding access to top secret files etc) you bet the journalists would be circling a charismatic principal investigator or project chair
11:22 < jrayhawk> the news media cannot die fast enough
11:23 < fenn> mainstream science tends to shy away from conspiracy theories, whether there's good reason or not
11:23 < fenn> it's like, politics is considered out of scope for scientific theories
11:24 < fenn> it's a bias that arises from narrow specialization
11:50 < muurkha> jrayhawk: be careful what you wish for; heightening the contradictions of a corrupt system doesn't always bring about utopia
11:52 < muurkha> .t https://youtu.be/gi7IOXQ7oyo
11:52 < Muaddib> [gi7IOXQ7oyo] Introducing the Omega 1. A revolutionary engine. (10:00)
11:52 < EmmyNoether> Introducing the Omega 1. A revolutionary engine. - YouTube
12:06 < jrayhawk> well, that solves the apex seal problem of the wankel engine, at least
12:13 < jrayhawk> at a cost of something like six times the bearing surface
12:20 < muurkha> I guess more bearing surface is bad if it's oiled the same
12:21 < muurkha> can you compensate for more bearing surface by using a lighter oil?
12:29 < fenn> you could machine pockets to reduce the bearing surface area
12:33 < muurkha> I am embarrassed to have not thought of that.  this, my friends, is why I am not a mechanical engineer
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12:57 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02887-w
12:57 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Octopuses used in research could receive same protections as monkeys
13:00 < kanzure> why do they treat the monkeys better than me
13:17 < juri_> theey're more expensive than lab workers.
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13:23 < muurkha> yeah, monkeys aren't gambling away years of their life in hopes of winning the tenure sweepstakes
13:23 < muurkha> on the other hand, they don't have to pay rent on an up-to-code apartment downtown either
13:34 < jrayhawk> in many of the same ways, children are also treated better than you
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13:37 < muurkha> while this publicity video is very nice in some ways, it spells "combustion" as "cumbustion" and "poppet valves" as "pop it valves"
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14:20 < fenn> shape rotators
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14:24 < fenn> i would have appreciated some side-by-side graphics with the omega engine parts and a standard otto cycle piston engine, as it was a bit hard to tell what was going on, and it shouldn't require 10 minutes to convey the idea
14:25 < fenn> also they need to justify the thermodynamic efficiency claim
14:26 < fenn> on the other hand, i don't really care about a new internal combustion engine design, since it's inevitably going to be expensive for longer than the EV transition
14:27 < fenn> by the time you can buy an omega engine, you can also get a used LiFePO4 car
14:27 < fenn> or a new one even
14:29 < fenn> their prototype is too big
14:30 < muurkha> fenn: I think it's totally reasonable to require 10 minutes to convey the idea
14:30 < fenn> it could be done well in a minute
14:30 < muurkha> depends on the level of detail
14:33 < muurkha> and your previous knowledge
14:39 < muurkha> things like the relative timing of the compressor paddle and the expander paddle are kind of subtle
14:50 < fenn> i don't see a reason for the hollow shaft
14:50 < fenn> seems like it's causing oil leaks too
14:51 < muurkha> the hollow shaft is causing oil leaks?
14:52 < fenn> the large diameter shaft has a higher surface velocity, which makes it harder to seal
14:52 < muurkha> oh, I think it has to be large diameter for other reasons
14:53 < muurkha> I was trying to figure out why they have hollow shafts too and I think it's just that they need a large diameter but the motor is fairly low torque (like most motors and in particular ICEs)
14:54 < muurkha> I think they want the large diameter so the torque for a given vane area isn't inconveniently low
14:54 < fenn> but i don't think they need a large diameter, the rotors can just go all the way to the center, and they can be machined to reduce weight if needed
14:55 < fenn> the torque is from a force applied at the "paddles", which doesn't care about the shaft diameter
14:55 < fenn> you'd only need a large diameter shaft if it had insane torque, which doesn't seem to be the case if they're talking about 25krpm and ~100 hp
14:56 < fenn> also i'll mention the other should be obvious thing; two paddles per rotor would balance the rotating mass, at a small cost in expansion ratio
14:58 < kanzure> https://www.techdirt.com/2023/09/18/ftc-warns-pharma-companies-that-it-may-go-after-them-for-sham-patent-listings-designed-to-delay-generic-competitors/
14:59 < fenn> why only 25krpm though? seems like you're only limited by the speed of sound
15:00 < fenn> at higher speeds, gas leakage past their loose "seal" is less of a proportion of the the total gas flow, and you can do away with oil, so efficiency might even improve
15:01 < fenn> maybe that is hitting mach 1 at that engine size.. hrm
15:23 < muurkha> if the paddles go all the way to the center, the combustion chanber becomes much larger for a given outer radius, or the lever arm becomes much smaller for a given chamber volume
15:28 < muurkha> if you had two paddles per rotor, you'd be wasting half the volume, because when the gas was trapped between the two paddles instead of between the paddle and the opposing shaft, it wouldn't be compressing or expanding
15:30 < muurkha> 25krpm is a challenging speed for bearings; they wear out quickly at speeds like that (and also as you pointed out their rotors are unbalanced, adding vibration, though maybe that could be fixed)
15:36 < fenn> if you had 2 paddles per rotor, the exhaust port would have to be advanced by 90 degrees or so
15:38 < fenn> ideally 180 degrees but there must be some overlap between the rotors and this occupies a wedge of each rotor
15:39 < fenn> i'm calling the nub sticking out of the rotor a paddle
15:41 < fenn> a rotor would just be a solid disc on a small diameter solid shaft, instead of a solid disc on a large diameter hollow shaft
15:48 < muurkha> you can't just advance the exhaust port; the chamber being compressed is squinched between the paddle and the point of contact between the two rotors, and the chamber being expanded is squinched between those two things on the other side
15:48 < muurkha> the intake and exhaust ports have to be adjacent to that point of tangency
15:49 < muurkha> otherwise you're compressing gas to pressures and temperatures approaching infinity, or pulling a vacuum
15:50 < fenn> ah, right you have to move the intake port too
15:50 < muurkha> doesn't help
15:51 < muurkha> you could maybe use other rotor forms with different numbers of lobes, but a circle is not a viable form.  if you want to try drawing them, I wrote a DHTML program for this sort of thing at http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/gears/
15:51 < muurkha> in 02014
15:53 < fenn> actually, no, i don't think you need to move the intake port, since it doesn't matter if there's trapped air doing nothing in the compressor
15:53 < muurkha> it's fairly primitive but once you understand what it's doing you can generate variations on the Roots blower, which is sort of what this is
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15:54 < muurkha> if you have trapped air that can't escape, it's going to create large mechanical forces that do no useful work, and high temperatures that produce nitrogen oxides
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15:54 < fenn> it hasn't been compressed yet
15:55 < muurkha> see, this is why 10-minute videos are a useful form of communication
15:55 < fenn> with two paddles per rotor you're wasting half the active volume of the engine, so i could see that being the reason
15:56 < fenn> on the other hand, they are wasting a lot of the total volume of the engine already
15:56 < muurkha> on hollow shafts, for example?
15:57 < fenn> it should be possible to counterbalance the paddle by drilling holes around it
15:59 < fenn> or making it from a casting with lightweighting voids arranged just so
15:59 < muurkha> or clipping a tire weight to the inside of the hollow shaft
16:00 < fenn> that wouldn't work because it's close to the center of rotation
16:06 < muurkha> it's not much closer than the paddle is, and it could be considerably more massive than the paddle
17:03 < hprmbridge> ruadhachain> Got anyone with institution access to a paper? Scihub doesn't have it https://doi.org/10.1080/19390211.2023.2252064
18:02 < superkuh> sci-hub stopped adding new papers once they began their trial in india in dec 2020.
18:03 < superkuh> Anything since then is not in sci-hub.
18:03 < superkuh> It's almost worst than it was before sci-hub because now all the communities and services to exchange papers have either died out or gone commercial.
18:20 < jrayhawk> anna's archive and libgen's "scientific articles" section are still doing fine
18:22 < superkuh> I had not heard of anna's archive. Thanks.
18:29 < jrayhawk> hot damn now i want that paper, too
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19:06 < sphertext_> guys it's impossible to order Pepsin in the uk 
19:07 < sphertext_> the only supplier restricts it only for educational addresses 
19:07 < sphertext_> does anybody have tips on how to procure it regardless?
19:12 < fenn> isn't that a generic dietary supplement? do you need something especially pure or will capsules from ebay do?
19:13 < sphertext_> all supplement formulations include betaine HCl with it. 
19:14 < sphertext_> besides, they probably just import it from some random china lab on alibaba. it's a blind gamble on what it contains 
19:14 < sphertext_> AND it is orders of magnitude more expensive per gram
19:17 < fenn> https://www.carolina.com/stc-secondary-replacement-parts-curriculum/pepsin-powder-12-g/974088.pr?question=pepsin
19:17 < fenn> https://www.carolina.com/specialty-chemicals-p-r/pepsin-laboratory-grade-25-g/879377.pr?question=pepsin
19:21 < sphertext_> thank you. do they ship to international, private residence addresses? their page on international ordering opens with a comment about supplying to science educators 
19:22 < sphertext_> they also mention that an order request must include a company name. of course i can invent one. do they do checks on that?
19:26 < fenn> "Orders for hazardous materials (and kits and sets containing these items) can only be accepted from schools, research institutions, medical facilities, and businesses. Hazardous materials cannot be shipped to individuals, homeschoolers, and other customers"
19:28 < fenn> is pepsin "hazardous material"?  it has a 1,1,0 hazard rating in the MSDS
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19:29 < sphertext_> yes i saw the rating. the uk company i contacted had this to say: "Our enzymes come under restricted items, as we need to be sure these will only be used for educational purposes, as they are not certified for use in any other industries such as food, medicine or pharmaceutical."
19:30 < sphertext_> on the other hand, there are reports on reddit of (presumably private) indviduals ordering pepsin from similar educational suppliers based in the US. to make home cheese and stuff 
19:30 < sphertext_> well, I suppose i could give it a shot 
19:31 < fenn> it doesn't seem especially hazardous to me, and i don't see any obviously "hazard icon" symbols on the page
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19:32 < sphertext_> for some background, yes pepsin can be hazardous. it's a generic proteolytic enzyme, which can use any other protein, not just dietary, as substrate. so if ingested, excess pepsin hydrolises the protective mucus of the digestive system, faster than it can be restored, exposing the underlying tissue to gastric acid, causing bleeding. pepsin is one of the reasons behind damage to the throat and tumorigenesis in people with reflux, or bulimia
19:33 < fenn> ok here's a product with shipping restrictions so you can see the difference, it has this blue exclamation mark symbol https://www.carolina.com/specialty-chemicals-d-l/formalin-38-l/863533.pr
19:33 < sphertext_> yeah, that's amazing. it seems very promising! 
19:34 < sphertext_> there was another US supplier which i found, but they did not accept shipping pepsin internationally (domestically to US was no problem from them)
19:34 < sphertext_> * for
19:34 < sphertext_> hopefully there's nothing special in the UK regulation which prohibits import? that could explain why the uk supplier refused..
19:35 < sphertext_> but I will definitely contact them 
19:36 < L29Ah> i wonder if this is some pepsin-rich cellular garbage resulting from crushing GM pepsin-producing bacteria, or something else
19:36 < fenn> more likely it's an affronted sense of "private citizens shouldn't be doing science" that pervades the chemical industry
19:36 < sphertext_> fenn yeah it's repulsive 
19:37 < fenn> it's not worth it for them to go to the trouble of thinking about whether it makes sense or not
19:38 < sphertext_> i actually emailed them back, linked my peer reviewed publications, explained the dangers of pepsin and my intended (scientific) use. they didn't bother to answer after that 
19:40 < sphertext_> L29Ah even the reagent grade?
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20:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787> How do i best preserve this? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1153531764690653195/PXL_20230919_032238348.jpg
20:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1153531786886914078/PXL_20230919_032224139.jpg
20:30 < muurkha> what happens if you inhale powdered pepsin?
20:32 < fenn> it's pH dependent so not as bad as you're expecting
20:32 < fenn> there is still some protease activity though
20:33 < sphertext_> it actually only drops to 50% in neutral pH 
20:33 < muurkha> there's some kind of enzymatic protease-based meat glue used in industrial cooking that is apparently really bad for your lungs, and I was wondering if that was it
20:34 < fenn> Symptoms (Acute): No data available, Respiratory Irritation, Dermititis, Respiratory Sensitization
20:34 < muurkha> Dermititis?  Really?
20:35 < fenn> i expect you will have a badly burned throat and pharynx
20:36 < fenn> worse if you don't wash it off
20:36 < muurkha> I mean, did they really misspell "dermatitis" in the MSDS?
20:36 < fenn> yes
20:36 < fenn> dust mites poop a similar enzyme which aggravates existing allergies
20:39 < fenn> "We report a case of occupational allergic rhinoconjunctivitis due to pepsin: prick test, CAP and immunoblot identified IgE-mediated reaction and challenge test identified pepsin as the etiologic agent."
21:07  * muurkha fails the prick test
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 19 00:00:26 2023