--- Log opened Tue Oct 03 00:00:45 2023
00:15 < hprmbridge> Eli> I think the one thing I do like about Sinclairs book is the concept of living things basically being in either an anabolic stage or a catabolic stage depending on their environment. Basically, the environment is sending a signal to the genes to tell it to grow and divide or basically go into hibernation. Really understanding this little detail really helps to understand all of nature, because
00:15 < hprmbridge> Eli> every cell we look at seems to do this. It's a deep universality and didn't really hit me how important that detail was until I read his book. Having said that, the book could have chopped off at least 30% of the content and been better.
00:21 < hprmbridge> Eli> CR is just telling the body that the environment is bad and turns on the same pathways that are probably turned on in yeast when it goes through caloric restriction. The soma is just a disposable vessel to propagate DNA. CR sends a signal to make the body live longer, thereby giving it a better chance to get to a better environment to signal anabolism and reproduction.
00:25 < hprmbridge> Eli> Specifically, methionine restriction seems to be the major contributor to lifespan extension. I don't know the MOA, but it's also the start codon. So, my hypothesis is that that may be behind the teleological reason methionine restriction extends lifespan. I could be totally wrong.
00:45 < sphertext_> eh yes, that's a very good theory. tbh im not even sure where i heard it first, i haven't read his book. but there is more to it. less food also puts less pressure on your digestive system for example (instead of constantly assaulting it with redundant nutrients). and longevity is not just a direct result of literally slowed down metabolic processes; there are also the indirect consequences, for example less mitosis = less chance for
00:45 < sphertext_>  tumorigenic mutations
00:46 < sphertext_> but yeah, the improvement in fitness which is conserved across species makes evolutionary sense 
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05:43 < L29Ah> seems like it takes almost half a second for the server to generate the page for https://gnusha.org/logs/?C=M;O=D
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06:33 < hprmbridge> kanzure> well you guys talk a lot.
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09:40 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://dublinlongevitydeclaration.org/
09:55 < ike8> > living things basically being in either an anabolic stage or a catabolic stage
09:55 < ike8> Eli: is it possible to gain weight in a catabolic state? I'm trying to gain weight so I can participate in clinical trials, but I don't want the longevity-damaging effects from being in an anabolic state.
10:01 < hprmbridge> kanzure> writing fellowship focused on biology https://www.readcodon.com/p/ideas-matter
10:04 < hprmbridge> Eli> So, I think the caloric restriction that they use in studies is pretty extreme. It would not be fun as a diet and you might be pretty miserable trying to reach it.
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10:13 < hprmbridge> Eli> There is a real question we have about doing CR and suffering from sarcopenia. Loss of lean muscle is a major killer in old age. Sarcopenia = break hip falling down = death.  So, the other school of thought is that you should eat in moderation but ensure enough protein intake and resistance exercise to maintain lean muscle into old age. You probably need 120 g protein a day at minimum, as far as I
10:13 < hprmbridge> Eli> can tell. Dr Peter Attia has quite a bit of info on optimal protein intakes and I follow his and other protein researchers recommendations.
10:17 < hprmbridge> Eli> Lean muscle is also a major glucose sink, so maintaining that as long as possible has major benefits in staving off metabolic disorder.
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10:26 < hprmbridge> Eli> Actually I should just recommend his book as it’s probably the best practical guide on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0B1BTJLJN/
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11:02 < ike8> There is a good chance I will be at risk for sarcopenia when I'm old
12:32 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> is anyone here interested in collaborating on some EEG prediction research? We're focusing on applied chaos/dynamical systems theory for seq2seq predictions, so that we can use it with human cortical organoid research
12:33 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> and would hplusroadmap be interested in fascilitating / collaborating?
12:34 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> https://github.com/Metaverse-Crowdsource/EEG-Chaos-Kuramoto-Neural-Net
12:34 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> this is what we have so far
13:14 < hprmbridge> kanzure> could you use dollars? and how much?
13:45 < sphertext_> jfc https://journals.lww.com/ajg/Fulltext/2022/10002/S2958_Do_Not_Trust_the_Internet__Acute_Liver.2958.aspx
13:47 < sphertext_> .t
13:47 < EmmyNoether> S2958 Do Not Trust the Internet: Acute Liver Failure Seconda... : Official journal of the American College of Gastroenterology | ACG
13:48 < sphertext_> good that they formatted the page title to preserve the most important information 
13:50 < L29Ah> > transgender (M to F) woman
13:50 < L29Ah> what a wording
13:51 < sphertext_> it should have been transsexual, i guess? 
13:51 < sphertext_> not sure what issue you're highlighting 
13:53 < sphertext_> oh i guess (M to F) is redundant?
13:53 < alethkit> Is the manga guide to molecular bio still the best intro, or would the HTGAA be better?
14:01 < sphertext_>  i agree with eli on dietary restriction.. it's a bit more nuanced than just "anabolism = bad". i would add that BCAAs are stronger activators of mTOR, but their level is reduced in plant protein sources; so you can mitigate to some extent the downsides of higher protein intake, if you avoid animal sources. also, regardless of BMI, you should be exercising regularly anyway, alternating both endurance and resistance training, as they both
14:01 < sphertext_>  have extremely broad benefits, which are complementary.
14:03 < sphertext_> if you're only short of a couple of kgs tho, you could try loading up creatine. it causes water retention of up to 2kg over the course of 2 weeks 
14:04 < sphertext_> maybe you can go a bit further by combining several things that cause water retention. idk just a random idea lol 
14:05 < ike8> I run and do calisthenics religiously. Creatine loading is a good idea; I use it regularly, but I should try a mega-dose.
14:06 < sphertext_> oh that's good. and you are still underweight, despite an exercise routine?
14:06 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://blog.cr.yp.to/20231003-countcorrectly.html
14:07 < sphertext_> the water retention from creatine plateaus at some point. 
14:07 < sphertext_> do you have a particular trial in mind you want to participate in?
14:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1158873659671335003/Screenshot_20231003-160911.png?ex=651dd4b3&is=651c8333&hm=4225fc813162ec7f32a521dfcf284af4f6d039f6dc28c257574f54dcab185b77&
14:10 < ike8> Molecules that interest me, or have helped me. I want to contribute back to the scientific community.
14:13 < ike8> I was 55 kg a year ago. I managed to work up to 57 kg. I need to be 60 kg for the doctors to ordain me "healthy".
14:14 < sphertext_> "It would not be fun as a diet and you might be pretty miserable trying to reach it." -- i've been eating at nearly 50% caloric deficit for 8 weeks, although now im slowly reversing it, in order to stabilise my weight (lost 9kg). i wouldn't discourage caloric restriction, i think the biggest hurdle is the cultural assumptions around what actually constitutes adequate eating habits. with the ability to precisely measure and track nutrients,
14:14 < sphertext_>  ppl underestimate how far you can actually depart from dietary traditions
14:14 < sphertext_> lol i'm 58 right now 
14:16 < ike8> wow lol
14:17 < sphertext_> yeah 2 months ago i woke up and wasn't proud of my abdomen so i said that's it 
14:18 < ike8> you probably feel better on less food, right?
14:18 < sphertext_> i feel incredible actually. but i've also been exercising like a maniac 
14:21 < sphertext_> it did take some trial and error to figure out the timing of meals, the exact macros, etc. when you're at a severe deficit, you have less margin for error, you can't really skip a meal because you're busy etc. because you don't have much buffer 
14:22 < sphertext_> so you need to be super precise about the requirements, and also super strict about it 
14:25 < ike8> meal replacements help cover your macro and micro nutrient needs and give you more free time.
14:27 < sphertext_> at least Huel isn't really designed for caloric deficits. it aims to provide complete nutrition for 2k/day
14:29 < sphertext_> so im making my own food every day, which meets all the micros, and has the balance of macros that suits me, for 1.1k
14:29 < ike8> ah, perfect
14:30 < sphertext_> that's the lowest i could go 
14:30 < sphertext_> so it's kindof like a minimal baseline. and i can go over that now, since im no longer trying to lose weight 
15:01 < ike8> I just tallied my caloric intake from all the nutritional labels:
15:01 < ike8> meal 1: 1066.67
15:01 < ike8> meal 2: 965.08
15:01 < ike8> meal 3: 962
15:01 < ike8> **TOTAL: 2993.75 calories**
15:01 < ike8> all within a 6-hour feeding window
15:02 < ike8> to be honest, I thought I was eating 4000+ cal/day
15:11 < sphertext> something doesn't make sense... 
15:11 < sphertext> that's a lot of calories 
15:12 < ike8> those dutch genes won't let me gain weight
15:14 < sphertext> you're nowhere near a catabolic state tho 
15:15 < sphertext> so i don't understand your concerns about "sacrificing the benefits to longevity" 
15:15 < sphertext> there are none at 3k/day 
15:18 < ike8> for me 2500 cal/day puts me into a catabolic state. Energy expenditure needs to be considered.
15:20 < ike8> i shrink up like a raisin at 2500 cal/day
15:20 < sphertext> being 57kg and in a caloric deficit at 2.5k/day doesn't sound realistic to me 
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15:21 < sphertext> are you sure you are calculating the calories correctly? are you using a good kitchen scale for the ingredients?
15:24 < ike8> Absolutely. Everything is measured; I'm very particular. This has been the story of my life; I eat like a pig but look like a homeless cokehead.
15:27 < sphertext> i don't know what to say. it does sound like an anomaly 
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15:28 < sphertext> perhaps the way you process food is very inefficient 
15:28 < sphertext> maybe you don't absorb one of the macros well 
15:28 < muurkha> speaking of pigs, I watched a lecture the other night from Iowa Swine Day about fat content in pig feed
15:29 < muurkha> and one of the surprising things to me was that some kinds of fats evidently only give the pigs about 3 kcal/g
15:29 < muurkha> even though they burn at 9 kcal/g in a bomb calorimeter
15:30 < muurkha> specifically saturated long-chain fatty acids (C16, C18) and peroxide-crosslinked fats, which additionally cause oxidative stress
15:31 < muurkha> because they're so hard to digest
15:31 < muurkha> for the pigs
15:32 < sphertext> can it come down to how well the enzymes are working? there are drugs which inhibits lipase for example, and it results in fats just being passed down to the stool, rather than being absorbed for energy 
15:32 < muurkha> ag researchers apparently have equations accurate to about two significant figures for predicting the effective energy content of foods in particular animals like pigs and chickens, which also vary with the stage of the life cycle
15:33 < muurkha> though they calibrate the parameters to four sig figs because of least squares I guess
15:33 < muurkha> even if the error in any particular case is around 1%
15:34 < sphertext> there is a similar drug which inhibits glucosidase, which is the enzyme that releases glucose from complex carbs; this results in a reduced rate of digestion for those carbs. 
15:36 < sphertext> yeah it's crazy how efficient the whole industry is. it's very mechanical, down to different breeds and precise composition of feed (including enzymatic supplements), in order to predict yield 
15:36 < muurkha> may be relevant to ike8 
15:37 < sphertext> they really treat the animals like biological machines 
15:37 < muurkha> I mean if he were a pig they would just kill him for failing to gain weight
15:37 < muurkha> {she? they?}
15:37 < sphertext> yeah ike8 i'd be curious if supplementing digestive enzymes would allow you get more calories out of less food 
15:38 < muurkha> but still the factors discovered may be relevant
15:38 < sphertext> he's a guy 
15:38 < ike8> he is fine. i don't care what you call me
15:38 < muurkha> wasn't sure, and some people are sensitive about it
15:39 < sphertext> is that true? they just kill animals who don't develop properly?
15:39 < sphertext> i guess it makes sense economically.. but it's so sinister 
15:41 < muurkha> yeah, never read Charlotte's Web?  even small family farms
15:44 < sphertext> i have a similar suspicion.. i need an unusually high amount of protein to just not feel terribly fatigued. and it might be down to a deficit in proteolytic enzymes. it's possible i just can't digest all of the protein im eating 
15:46 < muurkha> see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_poisoning which is poorly named
15:47 < muurkha> > According to Bilsborough and Mann in 2006, protein intake is mainly restricted by the urea cycle, but deriving more than 35% of energy needs from protein leads to health problems.[10] They suggested an upper limit of 25% or 2-2.5 g/kg, "corresponding to 176 g protein per day for an 80 kg individual", but stated that humans can theoretically use much larger amounts than this for energy.[10] For 
15:47 < muurkha> arctic hunter-gatherers, the amount can seasonally increase to 45%.
15:53 < sphertext> that's a bit scary. i was partly aware of this in the context of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein-sparing_modified_fast_(diet)
15:54 < sphertext> this was a super low-calorie diet, basically only vitamins, fluids and protein. it was intended as an extreme weight loss diet, which provided the naive minimum of nutrients 
15:55 < sphertext> it was found to be very unsafe, actually causing deaths due to cardiovascular problems 
15:56 < sphertext> i've checked and ive been getting 45% of my calories from protein. so yeah, pretty problematic 
15:57 < muurkha> well, potentially at least
15:57 < sphertext> but i didn't go for this much protein because of energy requirements... i would have gladly accepted carbs or fats instead. the problem is that below this absolute amount of protein, i simply start to feel ill. regardless of how much i eat of everything else 
15:58 < sphertext> so once i set the absolute amount of protein, i just adjusted everything else down, to balance the total amount of calories 
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16:07 < sphertext> i have a gp appointment in 2 weeks about this. it might be a waste of time, but just to get an opinion. and i'll take it from there. there's a chance it has something to do with my testosterone levels, because it affects protein metabolism/utilisation. but i'll definitely try taking enzymes as well. ike8 i suggest you also think about trying enzymes 
16:43 < ike8> you and I both eat plant protein, which is harder to digest and absorb (so I've heard).
16:47 < sphertext_> no, soy protein digestibility is equivalent to animal sources, and i include whey as well 
16:48 < sphertext_> in my diet there's only a smaller amount that comes from pea protein isolate (which is still not bad) and from whole pulses 
16:49 < sphertext_> there are plant proteins which are very shit, such as gluten. but i don't include those 
16:49 < ike8> > whey
16:49 < ike8> sin
16:49 < sphertext_> i eat fish too. oh and fat-free cottage cheese 
16:50 < ike8> https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/022/255/tumblr_inline_o58r6dmSfe1suaed2_500.gif
16:50 < sphertext_> just not often. and because i don't really have a choice, until i figure out how to need less overall protein. i can't drink 100g of soy protein every day, it's inhumane 
16:52 < sphertext_> is your indignation for environmental, ethical, or health reasons? lmao 
16:53 < ike8> all of the above, including economic. I'm relaxed about it though; I will eat mum's turkey on Thanksgiving.
16:53 < L29Ah> sphertext_: flavoured TVP is a decent protein source
16:54 < sphertext_> that's true. not sure about flavoured, tho. i prefer basic ingredients that i can work with as i want 
16:55 < L29Ah> soy TVP is ~50% protein and is palatable when soaked in water with some spices
16:55 < L29Ah> TVP itself has a taste of TVP, kinda boring
16:55 < sphertext_> yes but you add your own condiments, depending on the recipe 
16:56 < L29Ah> ah, i didn't mean necessarily buying pre-flavored
16:56 < sphertext_> the tvp i had was just dry, unflavoured chunks. pretty easy to cook with 
16:56 < sphertext_> i know that supermarkets also sell the wet (fresh?) kind, which is flavoured 
16:57 < sphertext_> is tvp only 50% protein? i thought it was higher 
16:58 < muurkha> soy TVP makes amazing vegan bacon
16:58 < L29Ah> i guess theoretically it could be up to 100% but all i've stumbled upon was 50%-ish
16:58 < sphertext_> you know what, thanks for reminding me, im going to buy more tvp
16:59 < muurkha> with liquid smoke, soy sauce, and sunflower oil
17:00 < L29Ah> liquid smoke is non-kosher
17:00 < sphertext_> oh hang on. yeah, they're all 50% 
17:00 < muurkha> L29Ah: really?
17:01 < L29Ah> muurkha: that's literally concentrated smoke substances
17:01 < muurkha> yes
17:02 < muurkha> but I don't think there's a prohibition on smoke in the Torah, and pastrami is certainly kosher
17:02 < muurkha> but if so I guess that's an unexpected way for the recipe to be especially realistic imitation of bacon!
17:02 < sphertext_> so tvp is 55% more calories than a soy protein shake, for the equivalent amount of protein. not ideal 
17:03 < L29Ah> ah i meant edible, as "kosher" translates to that
17:03 < sphertext_> aren't smoke particles highly carcinogenic? 
17:04 < muurkha> for whatever reason the main cancer risk from bacon is the nitrosamines, not the PCAHs
17:04 < L29Ah> the carbon particles aren't very cancerogenic if you don't shove them into your lungs/bloodstream iirc, but PAHs and aldehydes are
17:05 < muurkha> PAHs are PCAHs?
17:05 < sphertext_> tvp is basically just defatted soy flour btw. i think they don't remove any of the carbs 
17:05 < L29Ah> yes
17:05 < muurkha> aldehydes vary a lot
17:07  * L29Ah doesn't remember the details, was years ago when he researched that and concluded that incomplete combustion products of organics aren't nice to put in
17:09 < muurkha> generally not
17:10 < muurkha> I mean that's what keeps smoked meat from rotting
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17:22 < sphertext> this is something to be mindful of when going extreme with metabolic stuff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refeeding_syndrome
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18:21 < kanzure> https://www.alcor.org/docs/CryostasisRevivalV2.11.pdf
18:22 < kanzure> https://www.alcor.org/library/a-cryopreservation-revival-scenario-using-molecular-nanotechnology/
18:22 < hprmbridge> Eli> The kidney damage from high protein consumption occurs when you are eating a normal amount of calories. There’s still a minimum requirement of protein of about 100 g of complete protein. If you are eating vegetable based protein you have to increase this amount more due to the fact that you are not getting enough of specific AAs like leucine
18:22 < kanzure> just some old documents... i was trying to find anything about ralph merkle promising he'd work on nanotechnology while others are cryopreserved, and i can't find that.
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19:42 < sphertext_> eli the risk of aminoacid deficiency from plant sources is not as problematic as it sounds. the theory is correct, but it's pretty trivial to meet your minimal requirements. besides, the vast majority of my protein comes from soybeans, followed by other pulses (lentils and peas) and then seeds (hemp, sunflower and chia). those are all very high quality sources. and even when i experiment with diary or fish, i still end up in the same high
19:42 < sphertext_>  range. so something else is going on  
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19:44 < sphertext_> the 100g minimum requirement of complete protein is not accurate at all. recommendations are far below that, for both overall protein, and definitely for essential AAs
20:10 < hprmbridge> Eli> It’s not the risk of deficiencies as it is so much about optimization and maintaining lean muscle mass. The AAs of vegetables vs whey are published.
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21:25 < sphertext_> say i wanted to invent a new word, with a very precise definition; for example, "asdf" meaning precisely a red apple. is there any way to prevent humanity from appropriating that word and gradually using it with a different meaning than the one i intended?
21:26 < sphertext_> like for example, informally calling any red fruit "asdf" 
21:27 < sphertext_> (assume that the word catches on, for an arbitrary reason)
21:27 < sphertext_> this seems to be vaguely related to patents, but in the special context of language
21:28 < sphertext_> for example, is it possible to enforce that any public use of the word is first granted permission for use by me?
21:32 < sphertext_> i suppose the most effective tactic that can possibly be used, is to be extremely precise about the definition on public record. so that at least there is a clear standard reference for posterity 
21:33 < sphertext_> of reference *
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23:39 < jrayhawk> only if you're french
23:40 < jrayhawk> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Delegation_for_the_French_language_and_the_languages_of_France
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--- Log closed Wed Oct 04 00:00:45 2023