--- Log opened Mon Oct 16 00:00:57 2023
00:35 < sphertext> although doing it locally is an option. i saw ppl delivering homemade tempeh to their neighbours during the lockdown. i live in an upper end neighbourhood so it could work
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05:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://cryptotvplus.com/2023/10/webcash-founder-shares-insights-on-blockchain-less-digital-currency/
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05:58 < abetusk> I'm in London. Anyone have suggestions on what to check out?
06:03 < darsie> Maybe #londonhackspace knows something.
06:04 < darsie> Ahh, you're there already :).
06:07 < abetusk> Yeah, hoping to check out the hackerspace here in London but I'm also wondering if there's anything else I should check out. Also, if anyone here is in London and wants to get a coffee, I'm up for it
06:10  * nsh is not far away but car is booked for garage tomorrow. 
06:10 < nsh> if you're still here at the weekend i'll be in the city
06:11 < nsh> endless things to do but depends on your interests
06:13 < abetusk> nsh, sorry, leaving this Friday. I was mostly hoping for "tech" related suggestions (hackerspaces, makerspaces, people/organizations related to FOSS/OSH etc.)
06:17 < nsh> some good folks at https://london.hackspace.org.uk/  and on thursday nights there's ration club at Newspeak https://lu.ma/RationClub
06:20 < abetusk> I'm hoping to visit londonhackspace. It looks like they might have Wednesday meetups? And thanks for the Ration Club link
06:22 < abetusk> And it's Wednesday night at Ration Club, not Thursday?
06:25 < nsh> yeah go by the website not my recollection 
06:25 < nsh> :)
06:26 < nsh> i am cusping the transition between factuality and truthiness due to cognitive refinements of vintage and revelry 
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08:17 < kanzure> https://a16z.com/the-techno-optimist-manifesto/
08:46 < hprmbridge> nyxtelius> andreessen is, without doubt, an excellent rhetorician
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11:51 < hprmbridge> nmz787> abetusk I'm sure there's some captivating steam museum, or museum on trains
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12:58 < sphertext> excellent rhetorician? that piece of writing is unreadable 
12:59 < sphertext> i hate VCs who convince themselves that just because they can use capital to manufacture demand in markets, that means they are ppl with something interesting to say for posterity 
13:06 < justanotheruser> talking about a16z?
13:07 < sphertext> yes there was a link posted 
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13:51 < justanotheruser> funny I knew exactly who was being spoken of having joined after the link. They're notorious :)
14:01 < kanzure> "Recording of cellular physiological histories along optically readable self-assembling protein chains" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41587-022-01586-7
14:01 < kanzure> "Here we describe expression recording islands—a fully genetically encoded approach that enables both continual digital recording of biological information within cells and subsequent high-throughput readout in fixed cells. The information is stored in growing intracellular protein chains made of self-assembling subunits, human-designed filament-forming proteins bearing different epitope ...
14:01 < kanzure> ...tags that each correspond to a different cellular state or function (for example, gene expression downstream of neural activity or pharmacological exposure), allowing the physiological history to be read out along the ordered subunits of protein chains with conventional optical microscopy."
14:02 < kanzure> "Time-tagged ticker tapes for intracellular recordings" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.13.463862v1.abstract (2021)
14:03 < muurkha> it seems like an interesting political document, though probably nobody will gain new information about the things it talks about from reading it
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14:07 < kanzure> "Non-invasive temporal interference electrical stimulation of the human hippocampus" https://www.brainstimjrnl.com/article/S1935-861X(23)00835-5/fulltext
14:07 < kanzure> "Temporal interference (TI) electrical stimulation is a novel method that allows a non-invasive targeting of neurons at depth. This is achieved by applying multiple kHz-range electric fields with a difference frequency within the range of natural rhythmic brain activity. Interference between these fields results in envelope modulation of electric fields at the difference frequency, causing ...
14:07 < kanzure> ...neurons to engage at this range."
14:12 < superkuh> It makes sense to me.
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14:18 < muurkha> okay, I didn't know about Nixon's nuclear plant plan
14:19 < muurkha> I'm very much not convinced that fission energy was killed by being effectively outlawed by bad ideas
14:20 < muurkha> I think it was killed by being ineffective
14:22 < muurkha> the PRC, the USSR, East Germany, and the US Navy all had substantial expertise in building fission reactors and no laws against them
14:23 < muurkha> why does the US Navy still run most of its ships on diesel?  because fission is too expensive at the humans' current inept level of fabrication ability
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14:30 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I thought it was some political thing due to the common (now) tech having ties to warhead fuel/ingredients
14:34 < muurkha> but the PRC, the USSR, and the US military were all actively building nuclear warheads during the period 01964-01990
14:35 < muurkha> two of them continue to do so; the USSR presumably would have too if it hadn't suffered an unexpected total failure to exist
14:36 < muurkha> underpinned in significant part by its direction of too much production to military purposes like warheads
14:40 < muurkha> so if there was a political thing, which I think we do have excellent evidence for, it was building nuclear power plants even though they weren't a cheaper way to get energy, because it enabled warhead production
14:41 < muurkha> sometimes that motivation had other costs as well; that's why Chernobyl was built without a containment dome, for example, and likely why reactors that burn the far more abundant thorium were abandoned
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16:29 < sphertext_> "Fluoride therapy is often used to promote remineralization. This produces the stronger and more acid-resistant fluorapatite, rather than the natural hydroxyapatite. Both materials are made of calcium. In fluorapatite, fluoride takes the place of a hydroxide."
16:29 < sphertext_> so fluoridated hydroxyapatite is different from natural enamel 
16:30 < sphertext_> brushing with fluoride paste is basically transhumanist stuff 
16:30 < fenn> indeed
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16:49 < sphertext_> so i started eating just the peel of apples :D i just don't bite all the way to the core. i take small bites near the surface, and when the peel is gone, i throw the rest of the apple away. 
16:50 < sphertext_> this maximises phytochemicals per calorie 
16:51 < jrayhawk> china has been working hard on thorium for the past decade, at least
16:53 < ike8> > so i started eating just the peel of apples :D i just don't bite all the way to the core. i take small bites near the surface, and when the peel is gone, i throw the rest of the apple away.
16:53 < ike8> bro
16:54 < ike8> use berberine or something. leave the apples alone.
16:55 < fenn> let's start a business to machine trim the crust border form white bread and divert each stream to different demographics
16:55 < fenn> from*
16:55 < fenn> liquid CO2 jet won't soak the bread
16:56 < sphertext_> ike8 there's a lot of phytochemicals in the apple peel. it's broader spectrum than an extract like berberine. and technically, i am leaving the apple pulp alone lol 
16:56 < fenn> sphertext_: how does the phrase "soy boy" make you feel?
16:57 < sphertext_> fenn white bread is an abomination. did you know that all the micronutrients are removed by the process of bleaching; and then they are required by LAW to add back to the white flour synthetic versions of the micronutrients? it's so absurd. 
16:57 < ike8> sphertext_: I mean eat the whole apple and use berberine to offset your apple calories.
16:57 < sphertext_> fenn i bet i have a better beard than you 
16:58 < fenn> indeed, i have no beard
16:58 < sphertext_> ;)
16:59 < sphertext_> ike8 oh.. well idk. what's the point of eating the pulp in the first place 
17:00 < sphertext_> but yeah i should look into berberine fr. i also have acarbose on my list. i think the general idea of reducing carb intake/absorption, while maximising phytochemical intake is solid 
17:02 < fenn> carbs are all chemically and physiologically similar, but "phytochemicals" is a made up category of random stuff
17:06 < sphertext_> the way i use it, "phytochemicals" means the complement of macro- and micronutrients 
17:06 < sphertext_> in the set theoretical sense 
17:07 < sphertext_> so everything else that is not vitamins, minerals, carbs, etc. 
17:07 < fenn> usually the term is for things that aren't nutrients
17:07 < sphertext_> there are a lot of other bioactive chemicals in food, especially in plants
17:07 < fenn> oh complement means "not"
17:07 < fenn> not "the full complement"
17:08  * fenn sanctions sphertext_ 
17:08 < sphertext_> the complement of a set
17:09 < fenn> there are bioactive chemicals in animals, especially insects, but we are too similar to the target
17:09 < fenn> whereas the plants are targeting the insects
17:10 < sphertext_> actually i was reflecting on that. it's weird how many more weird, bioactive chemicals are found in plants, compared to animals 
17:10 < fenn> some plant phytochemicals target mammal herbivores, such as serotonin or estrogen mimics
17:11 < fenn> disrupting reproduction means less herbivores to eat you
17:11 < sphertext_> yeah but a lot of those phytochemicals turn out to be beneficial 
17:11 < sphertext_> and it's just weird that they would show biological activity in a completely different evolutionary clade 
17:12 < sphertext_> while we can barely find anything extracted from our own clade with useful pharmacological action 
17:12 < fenn> adrenochrome
17:12 < sphertext_> except biomimetics 
17:13 < fenn> huh? i was just saying how phytochemicals are biomimetics
17:14 < sphertext_> i don't think many of them qualify as biomimetics. they have pharmacological action which is often quite unexpected and different from how endogenous stuff works
17:14 < fenn> glandular extracts are just too expensive and contaminated with viruses and so on
17:14 < fenn> why bother when you can get the pure substance
17:14 < sphertext_>  there is that nootropic extracted from pig brain called Cerebrolysin i guess. but examples like that are very few 
17:15 < fenn> they were way more common before modern synthetic chemistry made it possible to skip the animals
17:15 < sphertext_> and i mean even cerebrolysin, it's just biomimetic brain growth factor
17:16 < fenn> the lack of progress in synbio / metabolic engineering has been disappointing
17:17 < fenn> there is always going to be a hard core hippie naturalist group, but personally i don't care where the quercetin comes from
17:17 < sphertext_> i wasn't talking about whether it's synthetic or an extract. i was talking about where it is discovered 
17:17 < fenn> i'd prefer a synbio route vs synthetic chemistry because of the lack of random side reaction contaminants
17:18 < sphertext_> we discovered a lot more pharmaceutically interesting compounds in the plant evolutionary clade, compared to our own. which to me is unexpected, because in theory there would be more chances in our own clade for a chemical to emerge that can interface with our biology 
17:23 < sphertext_> someone suggested that the reason for it is because there are far more plant species than animal species. so they explored a large area in the chemical reaction space 
17:25 < fenn> it's because the plant molecules don't degrade, they're weapons designed to jam up the gears
17:25 < fenn> in cases where we are able to defuse them, it's "ooh spicy"
17:25 < fenn> instead of "deadly horrific poison leaving you in pain for days before you shrivel up into a husk"
17:26 < sphertext_> well animals get eaten too lol. but their "poisons" actually work, instead of being cute little antioxidants that taste yummy 
17:26 < fenn> you just casually threw away thousands of years of trial and error, lore, and plant breeding
17:27 < fenn> and animal breeding
17:28 < fenn> plants don't have muscles so they are limited in physical attacks
17:28 < fenn> fungi don't have muscles either, and also have lots of wacky bioactive chemicals
17:28 < sphertext_> how come we haven't bred farm animals with nootropic properties 
17:28 < sphertext_> caffeine shrimps 
17:28 < fenn> eggs have a lot of choline...
17:29 < sphertext_> yeah, biomimetic.. not that exotic 
17:29 < sphertext_> actually choline is a micronutrient i think 
17:30 < fenn> because nobody has any imagination, biotech is suffering regulatory capture, and it just hasn't been that long since we got the capability to actually do it
17:30 < sphertext_> but yeah, that's a good point, plants/fungi definitely focused on traversing the chemical reaction space, rather than physical space 
17:31 < sphertext_> fenn well this is about bioactive phytochemicals occurring through natural evolution
17:32  * fenn considers how piracetam shrimp would taste
17:33 < sphertext_> you know there was that paper about a transgenic tomato making DMT 
17:34 < sphertext_> but yeah, anyway. im just wondering if there is something comparable to caffeine, that has evolved naturally in an animal species and we ended up using. i can't really think of an example 
17:36 < sphertext_> actually caffeine is a good example of what you said, because apparently it serves no other biological role in the coffee plant, other than insect poison 
17:39 < sphertext_> but animal poisons like snake venom don't usually have a therapeutic window lol 
17:53 < fenn> hippies do bufotenin, dolphins do pufferfish toxin, lemurs do centipede venom
17:53 < fenn> aren't there people who inject snake venom to deal with protein disorders? like auto-immune disease therapy or something
17:54 < sphertext_> wow bufotenin! that's actually a good example
17:54 < sphertext_> and i didn't know about that use of snake venom
17:54 < fenn> maybe it was bee venom
17:55 < fenn> iirc it was a protease
17:56 < fenn> some people do inject snake venom to build up immunity to it
17:58 < hprmbridge> Eli> I once read a paper on apitherapy. They sting people with bees. Not sure what the MOA is.
17:59 < fenn> "For instance, phospholipases type A2 (PLA2s) from the Tunisian vipers Cerastes cerastes and Macrovipera lebetina have been found to have antitumor activity."
18:00 < fenn> "The analgesic (pain-killing) activity of many snake venom proteins has been long known."
18:01 < fenn> "Bill Haast, owner and director of the Miami Serpentarium, injected himself with snake venom during most of his adult life, in an effort to build up an immunity to a broad array of venomous snakes, in a practice known as mithridatism. Haast lived to age 100, and survived a reported 172 snake bites. He donated his blood to be used in treating snake-bite patients when a suitable antivenom was not
18:01 < fenn> available. More than 20 so-treated individuals recovered."
18:01 < fenn> 100 is not bad
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18:04 < fenn> "Preparations made from blister beetles (particularly "Spanish fly") have been used since ancient times as an aphrodisiac, possibly because their physical effects were perceived to mimic those of sexual arousal, and because they can cause prolonged erection or priapism in men."
18:06 < fenn> Cantharides were in widespread use among the upper classes in France in the 1600s, despite being a banned substance. Police searches in connection with a rash of poisonings around 1680 turned up many stashes of “bluish flies,” 
18:07 < fenn> "Diluted solutions of cantharidin can be used as a topical medication to remove warts and tattoos, and to treat the small papules of molluscum contagiosum"
18:07 < fenn> it's annoying there's not a wikipedia category for animal derived drugs
18:07 < hprmbridge> Eli> Oh yeah, you can get snake venom for injections to treat nerve pain. My aunt had it recommended to her by a Chinese doctor
18:10 < fenn> pregnant mare urine (premarin) was a birth control drug
18:10 < hprmbridge> Eli> Maybe it was a cream. I don’t recall. But you can buy this stuff online
18:13 < fenn> "Enexatide, derived from the saliva of the Gila monster, prescribed for type two diabetes; Ziconitide, extracted from cone snail venom, for chronic pain; Eptifibatide, a synthetic modelled on the venom of the southern pygmy rattlesnake, administered to prevent heart attacks; Batroxobin, extracted from South American pit vipers and used in several different blood treatments, including the
18:13 < fenn> appropriately named “Reptilase”; and Captopril, the first pharmaceutical derived from an animal, an anti-hypertensive (1981)"
18:14 < fenn> fibrinolytic venoms can help with stroke sequelae
18:15 < fenn> "peptide Hm1a, derived from spider venom, shows promise for the treatment of the severe epileptic condition known as Dravet syndrome."
18:16 < fenn> "Tozuleristide (BLZ-100), a kind of “tumour paint” derived from scorpion venom. this drug selectively binds to brain tumour cells, but not healthy ones. This allows brain surgeons to more easily see cancerous tissue during surgery."
18:17 < fenn> “The drugs derived from animal venom mainly come from snakes because they produce such a huge quantity of venom – but now with our huge databases we can look at venoms from animals that don’t produce as large volumes in their stings,” says Ikonomopoulou.
18:18 < fenn> “There are literally thousands of peptides to choose from – in the old days we would have to grind up some poor organism, isolate a few peptides from them and test them against various targets, but now we don’t have to do that anymore. We have all the peptide sequences in our databases,” says Ray Norton of Australia’s Monash University
18:22 < fenn> .t https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359644621004414
18:22 < EmmyNoether> HTTPError: HTTP Error 403: Forbidden (title:75)
18:22 < fenn> "Paracelsus’ legacy in the faunal realm: Drugs deriving from animal toxins" (review article)
18:24 < fenn> venomous shrews, i had no idea
18:26 < fenn> oh yeah rubbing ants on a wound for antibacterials
18:26 < fenn> raw honey has antibacterial proteins
18:27 < fenn> ancient olympians ate bees for testosterone (?)
18:28 < fenn> there is probably a ton of deep ocean stuff we have no awareness of
18:28  * sphertext_ gives fenn a ⭐️
18:28 < sphertext_> amazing work 
18:28 < fenn> ok i'll stop now
18:32 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Animal_toxins
18:34 < sphertext_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gila_monster#Toxins_and_drug_research
18:34 < sphertext_> yeah lots of interesting stuff 
19:33 < sphertext_> trying to find an indian pharmacy on google maps is a vibe 
19:33 < sphertext_> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Alna+Biotech+Private+Limited+-+Best+Pharmaceutical+Company+in+Chandigarh,+India/@30.6055517,76.951768,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNW4AyfPGOurVEGUFKbbAfKRLlsWnrMkH0wGenX!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNW4AyfPGOurVEGUFKbbAfKRLlsWnrMkH0wGenX%3Dw132-h86-k-no!7i6000!8i3901!4m17!1m7!3m6!1s0x390f979a33f2c4f3:0xcd3868e13b7ed566!2sAlna+Biotech+Private+Limited+-+Best+Pharmaceutica
19:33 < sphertext_> l+Company+in+Chandigarh,+India!8m2!3d30.6054993!4d76.9517669!16s%2Fg%2F11fn4mz4hw!3m8!1s0x390f979a33f2c4f3:0xcd3868e13b7ed566!8m2!3d30.6054993!4d76.9517669!10e5!14m1!1BCgIgAQ!16s%2Fg%2F11fn4mz4hw?entry=ttu
19:33 < sphertext_> lol 
19:34 < sphertext_> https://tinyurl.com/2mfc8hnf
19:35 < sphertext_> would you guys buy an injectable from this pharmacy 
20:09  * L29Ah bought GHRP-6 from a quickly cobbled together web shop w/o a meatspace storefront
20:12 < L29Ah> otoh the manufacturer itself had some serial number-based verification scheme
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20:13 < L29Ah> by the way i inserted a product of http://nanoxbio.com/ subcutaneously into my belly >30 times and didn't get any noticeable side effects, so i guess not the worst peptide manufacturer
20:17 < fenn> did you get any noticeable effects at all?
20:17 < fenn> .t
20:17 < EmmyNoether> Home
20:18 < L29Ah> nah, i felt too cheap to do the blood work, it would cost much more than the peptide itself
20:18 < sphertext_> the one I'm looking for is licensed and manufactured by an actual pharma company, so I'm trying to get the branded one. which should make it acceptable to buy even from a dodgy place who just resells it. but most online pharmacies don't stock it, which is annoying. i could only find a couple of vendors on indiamart 
20:20 < fenn> assuming it's not counterfeit
20:21 < sphertext_> i mean, do you think they'd be able to counterfeit it in a convincing way?
20:21 < L29Ah> decided that it needs more investigation someday™ (i'm interested in the thymus rejuvenation protocol, the HGH + DHEA + metformin thing), and i postponed it, and today i'm in a village and can't easily get things
20:22 < L29Ah> sphertext_: just a box with printed labels and standard vials?
20:23 < sphertext_> L29Ah i think that protocol is well overhyped. first, it's probably just GH. met and DHEA are added to mitigate the diabetogenic effects of GH. the thesis seems to be that most of the GH side effects (of which there are many) come from how it affects insulin levels. but that would need a lot of evidence to prove. it's also possible that there is a synergy between the 3 compounds from an unknown mechanism, but that again is pure speculation.
20:23 < sphertext_>  I don't think the known downsides of GH are worth it imho 
20:25 < sphertext_> like ok, it regrows your thymus, but it also does a lot of other stuff which we know is pretty bad. and it's far from clear whether metformin + DHEA are enough to mitigate that 
20:26 < sphertext_> L29Ah i'd like to think it's not trivial to manufacture a realistic box and labels for everything 
20:26 < L29Ah> i think the effects of GH at such a dosage are quite minor, can you calrify what downsides are you talking about? some theoretical increase of cancer risks due to additional tissue?
20:27 < sphertext_> like you know, if you looked at the pixels, wouldn't you notice it's counterfeit? 
20:27 < L29Ah> sphertext_: you just insert the unfolded box into a printer et voila
20:27 < L29Ah> it all depends on manufacturer's protections of choice
20:27 < sphertext_> yeah but you need good photoshop skills. and you need to find the actual fonts 
20:27 < L29Ah> some add holographic stickers
20:28 < L29Ah> or just scan the box
20:29 < sphertext_> L29Ah https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8255405/pdf/wjmh-39-454.pdf
20:29 < sphertext_> nah i don't think the product has any protections like that 
20:29 < fenn> couldn't decide if the P100 filter cartridges i got were counterfeit or not, so i took them apart to see what was inside. they looked genuine inside
20:29 < fenn> sometimes manufacturers do silly things with packaging
20:30 < fenn> like horrible fonts and pixelated images
20:43 < sphertext_> if i can't find a pharmacy, the second thing i would try is to scan for peptide manufacturers references in peer reviewed papers. they usually say where they got their product from 
21:24 < sphertext_> L29Ah coincidentally came across this https://old.reddit.com/r/Peptides/comments/qnd5qi/legit_uk_source_for_peptides/hkgfc1y/
21:31 < sphertext_> solid review https://old.reddit.com/r/Peptides/comments/78f472/ukpeptidescom_are_scammers/
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21:44 < muurkha> jrayhawk: China has been working hard on everything for the last decade, but they're still installing more wind and solar generating capacity than nuclear, and no thorium in production.  in fact, if you don't derate for capacity factor, either wind or solar alone exceeds their new coal
21:47 < fenn> thorium only makes sense if you can't get uranium
21:47 < fenn> it's only proliferation resistant
21:49 < muurkha> it plausibly makes sense if uranium is expensive for you, probably for proliferation-related reeasons
21:49 < muurkha> or because you are generating a lot of power
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23:56 < fenn> javier milei has five cloned dogs, which advise him on politics and economics
23:56 < fenn> or possibly the mystic through which he communicates with the dearly departed progenitor dog
23:58 < fenn> also he supports legalization of the sale of human organs
--- Log closed Tue Oct 17 00:00:58 2023