--- Log opened Mon Nov 13 00:00:24 2023
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04:35 < kanzure> jkhales: okay it is kinda annoying
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06:21 < kanzure> would relativistic travel be a more plausible alternative to (modern) cryonics?
06:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I guess the issue is more building a sufficiently advanced ship with current space infrastructure as well as energy cost
06:25 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> There's also the logistical issue of how do we tell them when to come home and be "unfrozen", you could keep them within some local region doing loops but that has the cost of constant or repeated intermittent acceleration (constant if you want to stop the relative velocity from ever dropping below relativistic) and thus fuel
06:27 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> if you don't keep them in a bound region the "come home" signal will reach them at a timedelay about the length of time they've been travelling and then their return trip will take a while longer so by the time the come home it'll be whenever we decided we could res them times some factor that's probably greater than 2
06:27 < kanzure> well, you could do trips with a definite end and no return signal
06:32 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> point but that has the risk the problem isn't solved when you return
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06:42 < kanzure> low-cost nanopositioner https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468067222000621#s0005
06:42 < hprmbridge> jkhales> Ah sorry about the connection issue. Will stop using irssi for now.
06:48 < kanzure> jkhales: you could use a bouncer or a persistent irssi connection
06:49 < kanzure> (or discord, i guess, depends on your taste)
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08:35 < docl> https://lifescience.opensource.epam.com/KetcherDemoSA/index.html // Ketcher (chemical drawing tool)
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12:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787> This has been replicated on twitter as well https://twitter.com/Boehri2/status/1691992530609430872?s=20
12:29 < docl> nice!
13:50 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://medium.com/@andrewhessel/the-dna-writing-xprize-experience-c4e756bbf7d4
13:53 < docl> I'm trying out various chemical structure drawing tools, currently on avogadro. what's y'all's favorite?
13:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> chemdraw?
13:59 < docl> is that open source?
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14:13 < docl> so far I'm holding off on chemdraw itself but maybe if I'm desperate. looks closed source and windows/macos only.
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14:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I don't see any follow on link in that article to the actual prize competition sign up. Does that indicate the cash is already earmarked for some specific company?
14:35 < fenn> kanzure> would relativistic travel be a more plausible alternative to (modern) cryonics? <- no because if your tech is that advanced you can probably just do cryonics the right way, or have people not die from disease
14:36 < fenn> it would be great if we could get aging classified as a disease state
14:37 < nsh> try poverty first
14:37 < juri_> why not both?
14:37 < fenn> we are currently absolutely nowhere near attaining even single digit fractions of the speed of light, much less 90%+
14:37 < fenn> nsh: if you say poverty is a disease then people call you racist
14:37 < fenn> it's "victim blaming" or something
14:38 < nsh> no, the finger's just point in the wrong direction :)
14:38 < nsh> (or rather the disease in the nondual connexion between the poor and society)
14:39 < nsh> (and if you can't solve that before solving mortality then you're gonna have a lot more of the same inequality)
14:39 < fenn> i don't agree with the order of operations
14:39 < fenn> how about we just fix problems instead of not fixing problems
14:40 < juri_> agreed.
14:41 < fenn> "can't go to the moon until every child in africa is fed" is literally soviet ideological propaganda
14:41 < nsh> undoubtedly we all want to extend the lives of our exploited-world brethren and perhaps if there's enough resources ourselves too
14:41 < nsh> but first the trees and the aquatic fauna, right?
14:42 < fenn> yes, gotta abolish pain and suffering on a microscopic level
14:42 < fenn> reformat the universe as happy face squiggles
14:42 < TMA> could the nanopositioner be used in IC manufactoring to skip the need for making masks? (laser etching the features or just depositing the dopant directly via some sputter/particle gun)
14:43 < juri_> optical systems are all about speed. nanopositioning can't keep up, but kodak's nanopatterning looks neat.
14:46 < TMA> not for volume production but for prototyping. I hear the lead time is in the order of months
14:47 < TMA> if it took a week to make a chip in this manner it would still be faster than the conventional way
14:48 < fenn> you realize lasers are a couple orders of magnitude too large for nanometer precision right?
14:48 < fenn> blurry*
14:49 < fenn> maybe there's some two photon thing but i doubt you'll end up with anything close to e-beam lithography
14:49 < fenn> and if you have an SEM why not just use the built in beam steering
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14:56 < kanzure> nmz787: it's just a proposal for a competition. no prize money exists for that.
14:58 < fenn> .t https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsami.2c08063
14:58 < EmmyNoether> HTTPError: HTTP Error 403: Forbidden (title:75)
14:59 < fenn> a crappy ~50nm line drawn by photoinhibited two-photon lithography
15:07 < L29Ah> docl: tried indigo/imago?
15:17 < L29Ah> 23:41:01]<fenn> "can't go to the moon until every child in africa is fed" is literally soviet ideological propaganda
15:17 < L29Ah> pretty sure improving african economy is/would have been vastly more useful than tossing humans on the moon
15:19 < L29Ah> sadly democracy can't really drive projects that are much farther than rulers' next elections
15:23 < docl> L29Ah: haven't tried that yet, will do
15:24 < docl> actually I have tried ketcher, from the same company as indigo toolkit
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15:37 < kanzure> jchempaint?
15:45 < fenn> structured argumentation from a simple text markup https://argdown.org/
15:49 < kanzure> doesn't render theorems?
15:52 < fenn> there is some special font that has math hieroglyphics if for some insane reason someone would want that
15:52 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Fenn latest gen EUV lasers can write 15nm ish lines
15:53 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxyM2Chu9Vc
15:54 < fenn> does anyone use them for direct write?
16:04 < hprmbridge> nmz787> No it's all mask based. I don't think direct write can support 30,000 wafers a week throughput.
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16:10 < fenn> this video makes it seem like they're trying really damn hard to make square shapes when nature doesn't want to
16:14 < fenn> i wonder if font serifs perform the same function as OPC/ILT for blurry eyeballs
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16:23 < fenn> why not use a wavelet basis instead of pixels, if it's a data management problem?
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16:24 < fenn> "manhattan geometry" just seems like a really dumb way to do things
16:26 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Manhattan routing probably
16:26 < hprmbridge> nmz787> .wik Manhattan routing
16:27 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Also computational complexity. That's why this culitho thing is a big enough deal to warrant that video... Previous inverse litho mask conversion was too performance poor
16:30 < fenn> that was the name asianometry gave for "our only geometry primitive is rectangles. lots of rectangles"
16:31 < fenn> it didn't seem to be grid aligned, but there was no rotation of rectangles
16:31 < fenn> some slides said "manhattanized ILT"
16:32 < fenn> vs "curvilinear ILT"
16:34 < fenn> i don't think working in wavelet space would be more complex than working with pixels, but maybe harder for programmers and engineers accustomed to pixels
16:35 < fenn> there are probably better basis functions, wavelet was just the first i happened to think of that looked like it would make representing the ILT patterns easier
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18:32 < muurkha> you can't really solve poverty without solving mortality; death is the ultimate poverty
18:34 < muurkha> TMA: ion etching, e-beam milling, and focused ion beam milling are indeed used for nanopatterning
18:35 < muurkha> fenn: agreed about manhattan geometry
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20:25 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I think design rule check would also be more expensive with non Manhattan
20:26 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Plus think about the fourier domain, since that's what a lot of these masks end up looking like
20:27 < muurkha> nmz787: plausible, but DRC may be only a tiny fraction of the cost of a current chip design
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21:26 < hprmbridge> nmz787> It's a HUGE  amount of time that goes into design rule development, coding those from spec, and then the subsequent stages from basic library, to IP-level and finally partition and full-chip DRC
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21:32 < muurkha> hmm, I guess that's plausible
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22:18 < fenn> "Starship preparing to launch as early as November 17, pending final regulatory approval"
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22:23 < hprmbridge> Katylase> Hi guys! So I applied to work as a volunteer in a cubesat team...😄
22:24 < hprmbridge> Katylase> Anyway, what do you think about cubesats?
22:27 < fenn> given the reduction in launch costs, cubesat construction technology is where all satellites are headed. low cost, mass produced and interchangeable / compatible parts
22:28 < fenn> the cubesat spec allows for up to 1 kg in a 10cm cube, which works out to be as dense as water
22:28 < fenn> so it's more about making something that works, rather than making it mass optimized
22:28 < fenn> which i think is a good attitude to have these days
22:39 < hprmbridge> Katylase> I love them because they're small and cute🤭 And if you go somewhere, you can easily take your cubesat with you (I have 1:1 paper model, and carry it literally *everywhere*😅)
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22:47 < muurkha> given the Airy disk diffraction limit, cubesat size is not at all where all satellites are headed
22:49 < muurkha> I mean I worked at Satellogic for a while.  our early satellites were teensy but teensy satellites have shitty directionality so by the time I joined we were launching satellites that were over a meter across because that's what was required to make them useful
22:50 < muurkha> we used all kinds of low cost, mass produced, and interchangeable/compatible parts tho
22:50 < muurkha> and even the 
22:51 < muurkha> and even the Cubesat Space Protocol instead of TCP/IP between the parts inside the satellite
22:53 < muurkha> if you take an actual cubesat with you everywhere instead of a model, you are likely to regret it when launch time comes around, because the random environmental materials you got on it in the process will outgas in space and ruin your optics.  or, potentially, somebody else's optics on the launch
22:53 < muurkha> best to leave the actual cubesat in the cleanroom (or on the clean bench) until it's time to send it off
22:54 < fenn> photon sieve zone plate lets you have a large aperture that folds up into a small package
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23:01 < fenn> https://mmadesignllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/FS-71-1024x682-e1480443414155.jpg
23:01 < fenn> the pantograph boom is overkill, this could be done with rolatube
23:05 < fenn> https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Technology-and-opportunities-of-photon-sieve-with-Kim-Hariharan/1883546c38cddecf295d5766d1d614b4900a6ad7
23:05 < fenn> they call it a "tape spring deployment system"
23:06 < hprmbridge> Katylase> Well, I'm building a cubesat with Arduino, trying to get as close in functionality to the launched ones... His name is Altair :3
23:06 < hprmbridge> Katylase> (With him being a ground-cube, I don't have to worry about launch problems🤭 also, I have a protective case for carrying him)
23:07 < fenn> even ground cubes still have to compile and not crash
23:12 < muurkha> yes, folding holographic optics are great
23:12 < muurkha> Katylase: fantastic!
23:13 < hprmbridge> Katylase> My cube boi💗 (not finished yet) https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1173883317616123945/IMG_2456.jpg?ex=65659308&is=65531e08&hm=5ed776a312aeaa68da200864606abb603fc1b2f93a754217031553d31fb4b5d2&
23:13 < muurkha> ground cubes are less of a pain to recover if you push them a bad firmware update
23:13 < muurkha> we had some trouble with an SD card vendor
23:14 < muurkha> they suggested unplugging their card and plugging it back in
23:14 < muurkha> we had to explain that this would require deorbiting the satellite
23:14 < muurkha> very cute cube!
23:16 < hprmbridge> Katylase> "Do you expect us to go to space and catch our cube?" Like that...🤭
23:16 < muurkha> exactly!
23:16 < muurkha> though even then it was a bit bigger than a 1U cube
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23:45 < fenn> https://fennetic.net/sd/adderall_shortage_00180-00175-2065025420.jpg
--- Log closed Tue Nov 14 00:00:25 2023