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02:14 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | https://diyhpl.us/wiki | not quite sponsored by george church | banned by the MIT media lab and the FDA
02:14 -!- Topic set by fenn [~fenn@user/fenn] [Fri Mar 25 06:29:19 2022]
02:14 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 67 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 66 normal]
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02:14 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Wed May 19 06:51:36 2021
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04:11 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://arjunkhemani.substack.com/p/24-max-more-cryonics-transhumanism
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09:05 < hprmbridge> Katylase> Is this him? (CubeBug 1)👀 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1174032356064108656/IMG_2490.jpg?ex=65661dd6&is=6553a8d6&hm=bfa9bb8e6cddea4f514348dc8c373b43edab63d79237832cc47896ecd82b04db&
09:30 < muurkha> so cute!
09:33 < hprmbridge> Katylase> Why I think it's your cubesat: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1174039483696554058/IMG_2492.png?ex=65662479&is=6553af79&hm=5b0e2c6234e780ed6086eea26785cafebbb4def394f99dbbfffd9e602ac9c826&
09:39 < hprmbridge> jkhales> we use ketcher at my company for our webapp. Nice enough, but our chemists still prefer to use chemdraw and then upload it whenever possible.
09:49 < muurkha> Katylase: yeah, Capitán Beta was the very first Satellogic satellite.  years before I worked there, though; I don't think they had employees then
09:49 < muurkha> unfortunately they got a lot less open later
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10:01 < muurkha> actually I think it was Capitán Beto
10:02 < muurkha> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capit%C3%A1n_Beto_(nanosat%C3%A9lite)
10:03 < muurkha> oh, which is in fact what the image you posted said
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10:17 < docl> @jkhales yeah ketcher's a pretty nice drawing app for 2D. I had a couple issues, like the copy/paste was nonfunctional on my browser. all the linux packages I've tried so far to do the same thing seem to be suffering bitrot. unexpected crashing with no autosave, icons failing to scale based on modern gnome settings, and can't apparently be compiled from source without heroic effort.
10:27 < hprmbridge> jkhales> What are you working on? Anything you can share?
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10:46 < docl> well it's mostly me going down a rabbit hole to learn how things work rather than anything solid. I'm basically obsessing about how watson-crick pairing works, and wondering if I could get the same thing with something like polystyrene or maybe arenes. It looks like you just need 2-3 sites on a ring dedicated to hydrogen bonding, which you can use N--NH and O--NH2 for. (these might be on pentagonal 
10:46 < docl> rather than hexagonal rings, but hexagonal is what natural nucleoside rings use.) then my speculation on potential applications goes, you might set up a way to assemble chunks of DNA or RNA by running bases through a series of microfluidic channels. the artificial analogues could be more stable than the phophate sugars used in RNA and DNA, so you could reuse them multiple times. cross compatibility to 
10:46 < docl> DNA also means you might assemble durable base-complementary pairs to existing DNA.
10:49 < docl> hmm, I don't see a "share this molecule" link on ketcher. I could whip up some examples and share the inchi or smiles. or paste a png in discord I guess
10:59 < hprmbridge> docl> Here's a simple example of the kind of molecule I've been drawing. Basically would work like a C-G pairing. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1174061088728436847/NA_analogue.png?ex=65663898&is=6553c398&hm=9af948c5b997fb851f04e4ce616036f32e0f5be97a4eb6062ae64bf753a7165e&
11:04 < nsh> it's very hard to read a thought process involving polystyrene and DNA and not make a joke about eating the packaging pellets while also trying to be constructive and charitable
11:05 < nsh> i think perhaps a consideration of the differences in molecular dynamics between the things that form watson-crick pairs and the things one might want so substitute them with would be indicated
11:05 < nsh> but i have no intuition for that off-the-bat
11:05 < docl> well the packing pellet joke was made already... and I'm pretty sure this is still in naive first thoughts phase for me anyway
11:07 < nsh> i've been watching the thought process evolve and the most sincere thing i can say is that i think you're at risk of doing an injustice to the beauty of what's already happening as a computational environment integrating informational dynamic in DNA by trying to make it more like the way we do computational logic using things that evolved from relays
11:08 < hprmbridge> docl> Here's a pair that's more like A-T https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1174063280071905280/NA_AnalogueAT.png?ex=65663aa3&is=6553c5a3&hm=2e9c3fceb109ed5149d2b22f300ebe548a11ba71cef48e0cd3f6708fffee33c1&
11:08 < nsh> but i can say that confidently as a result of decades of thought and research that are not easily conveyed
11:12 < nsh> there's definitely some virtue in the notion of using specially customised microfluidic channels to consistently induce some kind of molecular dynamic (and of interactions)
11:12 < kanzure> shrug, you are allowed to do things with DNA even if non-optimal
11:13 < kanzure> (gestures vaguely at all the humans)
11:13 < nsh> permission is appreciated but saving us from the consequences would be even better appreciated :)
11:14 < nsh> i would love the freedom to experiment liberally with potentially runaway processes and not have to in-advanced with some confidence reason about the implications
11:14 < nsh> but at the moment i am not a machine elf
11:14 < docl> will live be uglier if it consists of cells with a digital synthesizer in place of the nucleus? perhaps, but that seems like a subjective judgment
11:15 < docl> *life
11:15 < nsh> we have ten digits. proteins are already living an inordinately richer life than hominids
11:16 < nsh> in terms of the dexterity of their overall configuration
11:16 < nsh> (this was a philosophical rejoinder rather than a direct response to the intent of the question)
11:17 < nsh> in the most abstract the desire is to have an interface with the analogue apparatus of synthesis and the classical informational world of digital computing
11:17 < nsh> this is as liable to be a good thing as a bad thing depending on execution
11:17 < nsh> s/with/between
11:18 < nsh> i didn't really play bioshock but i recall the characters weren't exactly groaning in ecstasy
11:18 < nsh> the point being it might take a kind of nicety we don't yet know much about to make this interface congruent with what is considered prosperity at various scales in organic entities
11:19 < nsh> we're still learning how to do that with the one we already have :)
11:19 < docl> imagine the good we could do with this kind of power! :)
11:20 < nsh> imagine demonstrating the good we can do with the powers we already have in while l[earning] new ones
11:20 < nsh> :)
11:22 < docl> well the power to study and invent is our already
11:24 < muurkha> nsh: how would we know if you were right or wrong?
11:25 < nsh> about what sorry?
11:25 < nsh> i haven't asserted anything 
11:25 < nsh> well i have asserted a few things
11:25 < nsh> or suggested rather
11:29 < nsh> but in any case to clarify i'm not saying not to muse nor to experiment, only to try to do so respectfully of nature by first appreciating and honouring that from which was birthed digital logic rather than imposing our own provincial destination back upon the source of all possible destinations
11:29 < nsh> (to the exclusion perhaps of others)
11:30 < nsh> the fruits of our intellect are downstream of the sublime, its expression through the story of our heritage
11:31 < nsh> one of but many stories 
11:31 < nsh> so we should take care to engage in a kind of husbandry that weaves back back into the source with as much affordance of potentiality as we have benefited from
11:32 < nsh> imho
11:36 < muurkha> "i think you're at risk of doing an injustice to the beauty of what's already happening"
11:36 < muurkha> you said you could say it confidently
11:37 < muurkha> but I don't even know how to measure whether it's right or wrong; it seems like a non-falsifiable sort of statement, like the omnipotence of God
11:38 < nsh> fair
11:38 < nsh> i would say to look at forests and cities and see which are better places for the prospering of biodiversity
11:39 < kanzure> if the goal is biodiversity then genome printing will succeed at that
11:39 < kanzure> nature is terrible at diversity
11:39 < nsh> and ask if we have learned the lessons yet consequent to the observations
11:39 < nsh> nature is terrible at diversity?
11:39 < kanzure> there re less than 1 billion species
11:39 < muurkha> I don't want to say that non-falsifiable statements like "this painting is gorgeous" are unimportant or uninteresting, but it is unclear how you could come to agreement over them
11:39 < nsh> how many have you speciated?
11:39 < kanzure> working on it!
11:39  * nsh smiles
11:40 < nsh> .gpt4 how many species are there?
11:40 < kanzure> versus nature i figure i have a few hundred megayears before you can say nature is faster at it
11:40 < muurkha> so they don't seem like worthwhile things to argue about, even if they're worthwhile to express
11:40 < nsh> we tried faster food too
11:40 < gptpaste> ​The exact number is difficult to determine as new species are being discovered regularly. However, it's estimated that there are around 8.7 million different species on Earth, but only about 1.2 million have been documented and described by scientists.# Tue 14 Nov 20:40:10 CET 2023 - how many species are there? - https://bin.gy/onspulayar
11:40 < nsh> .gpt4 -c by some reasonable definition how many species have their been?
11:40 < nsh> *there
11:42 < gptpaste> ​The number of species that have ever existed on Earth is a subject of much debate among scientists. Some estimates suggest that over 99% of all species that have ever lived are now extinct. Given the current estimate of about 8.7 million existing species, this could mean that billions of species could have existed over the Earth's history. However, these are rough estimates - https://bin.gy/ntalgolych
11:43 < kanzure> no fair i didn't know i was allowed to count the dead
11:43 < nsh> i was just wondering if we have more of one than there have ever been kinds
11:43 < nsh> but it's... it's a semantic game at some level
11:43 < nsh> species being defined in a way that you can't actually talk about over evolutionary time
11:44 < nsh> as it's usually constrained by the potential for mutual propagation
11:44 < nsh> we can't talk about the how the genre of jazz sounds to the ancient egyptian
11:44 < nsh> we can imagine it though
11:44 < docl> we're all on a collision course with death by aging right now. maybe we solve that first by whatever ugly way works, and spend the next few centuries arguing over aesthetics? safety is important in the nearer term vs aesthetics, right after capability
11:45 < nsh> i originated as life by aging
11:45 < docl> do you want to die of aging?
11:45 < kanzure> you are intentionally ignoring what he means
11:45 < nsh> specifically by the *ageing and dying and being cycled of billions of organisms
11:46 < nsh> or rather hundreds of thousands
11:46 < nsh> i want to offer the same opportunity for others to arise by my cessation as i enjoy
11:46 < docl> predation was part of that too. more so than aging. do we want to be predators?
11:46 < nsh> but that's a disposition at present and not something i think i can say should be the analysis of others
11:47 < nsh> we do predate 
11:47 < muurkha> i want you to have that choice, nsh
11:47 < muurkha> though i hope you change your mind
11:47  * nsh smiles
11:49 < nsh> i'm also just being contrarian to the general consensus of the room as a dialectic service. i'm not really as wed to the positions i sometimes take as is suggested
11:50 < nsh> i really don't know and indeed it's by trying that we tend to come to a knowing
11:50 < nsh> but i also experience a lot of regrettable consequences of the ways we've tried things already
11:50 < nsh> so it's hard to say
11:50 < nsh> the optimist perhaps says we must strive forward 
11:52 < docl> farming livestock, while not ethically better, is certainly a different, more engineered process than the sort of hunting that has driven evolution over eons. we mostly don't predate, in that sense.
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11:53 < docl> and this engineered replacement of natural predation has spurred a new, much faster kind of evolution
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11:57 < nsh> (i think it's not controversial so categorise farming as industrialised predation)
11:57 < nsh> *to
11:57 < nsh> also i'm not sure it's spurred a faster kind of evolution. well. hmmm
11:58 < docl> in an evolutionary context? it's utterly disanalogous. very few animals have something like agriculture. certain ants?
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11:58 < nsh> i mean predation in the simple sense of the body of a thing becomes the food of another
11:58 < nsh> .ety predator
11:58 < EmmyNoether> "predator (n.)'animal that preys upon another,' 1862, from Latin praedator 'plunderer,' from praedari 'to rob' (see predation). Latin Predatores (Swainson, 1840) was used in biology of the group of coleopterous insects that ate other insects...." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/predator
11:59 < docl> are lions selectively breeding gazelles to be better lion food or worse lion food? faster running gazelles mean more starved lion cubs
11:59 < nsh> okay let's put it as fairly as possible. we've perhaps substituted the other kinds of evolution outwith that of humans through the use of the ecospace we have taken over for farming with the refinement of a single species
12:00 < nsh> and in that way allowed a wonderful expression of diversity within that species
12:01 < nsh> and this might well be considered a teleological tendency of evolution (i don't want to say end because i don't know the next few billion years)
12:01 < nsh> or a freak accident 
12:02 < nsh> what we do know is that we are running against various kinds of clocks some of which we have set in motion ourselves that limit our growth and some of which we cannot stop
12:02 < docl> anyway, I'm curious about mechanisms and how to hack them. there's something beautiful to me about discovering a clever hack. it's what our brains evolved to enjoy -- the spear, agriculture, trade, all of it
12:02 < nsh> :)
12:02 < nsh> what i'd like to know is whether it is indeed possible that it could have all been "for nothing", which i think is the core worry
12:03 < nsh> so was it indeed for nothing when earlier dominant species (constellations) were toppled by catastrophe or did their cumulative contributions to complexity still in some way inherit 
12:03 < docl> well we don't look like an evolutionary dead end to me, if that's what you mean. we're probably the first time terrestrial life has had a shot at spreading to the stars.
12:04 < nsh> and that is not a prospect to be sniffed at indeed
12:08 < muurkha> brains evolved to usually disregard clever hacks
12:09 < muurkha> I mean most of the time following tradition gets you more grandchildren
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13:15 < hprmbridge> jkhales> very cool  🙂
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16:23 < hprmbridge> docl> Thanks! I'm not sure how plausible all those are, but I'm seeing a lot of different ways to approach it.
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17:56 < fenn> i don't see the point of re-inventing DNA when we have perfectly good DNA already
17:59 < fenn> shouldn't it be like, heavily fluorinated polysiloxane instead. something mostly inert and at a low energy state so it's not seen as food by something hypothetical that doesn't exist yet
18:01 < fenn> you don't want corrupted nanotech bugs eating your information storage media in the archives
18:25 < muurkha> polydifluorosiloxane, that's the ticket
18:26 < docl> there's a thought
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--- Log closed Wed Nov 15 00:00:26 2023