--- Log opened Wed Dec 06 00:00:50 2023
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04:52 < kanzure> hmph
05:14 < muurkha> "silent voices passing through": did your scream get lost in a paper cup?  I think there's a Heaven where your screams have gone.
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06:51 < L29Ah> https://manifold.markets/levifinkelstein/if-eliezer-yudkowsky-committed-to-d
06:55 < fenn> it's the weight of doom
06:58 < fenn> i wonder if he's tried beta blockers
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09:30 < kanzure> hrm having DNS resolution issues again
09:30 < kanzure> fenn: it's possible that idiots are just neuro-metabolically starved
09:31 < fenn> disprivileged i believe is the term of art
09:43 < kanzure> we should try separate bloodcircuits
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10:30 < hprmbridge> nmz787> So are there actually people who, if locked up in jail and only provided electrolyte water, would die before losing weight?
10:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Fenn: ordered those EPC gen 2 tags and a $65 no-name reader from ebay
10:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Hopefully when it arrives it has a model number printed on the pcb silk screen
10:33 < hprmbridge> nmz787> And that there's already a github repo for interacting with it
10:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I will need to figure out how i want to interact with the transceiver.... Something with my phone, or give the thing a custom display and physical input buttons
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10:47 < muurkha> nmz787: there are, yes, and many more who would lose weight and then die while still fat
10:48 < muurkha> still more who would survive until thin, but upon being provided food again, regain the lost weight and/or have permanent damage to their health
10:50 < muurkha> more generally, weight gain resulting from temporary caloric restriction is an extremely widely observed phenomenon
11:26 < L29Ah> 19:47:41]<muurkha> nmz787: there are, yes
11:26 < L29Ah> was there some sort of a nazi experiment that has shown it or where is your information from? 
11:49 < jrayhawk> nmz787: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhabdomyolysis#Causes under the "metabolic" header for examples
11:52 < jrayhawk> for instance, inuit have broken CPT1A enzymes that make it dangerous for them to fast
11:54 < muurkha> L29Ah: veterinary experience mostly, but it also applies to humans
12:25 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Wait, "weight gain resulting from temporary caloric restriction" where is that mass coming from? The air?
12:26 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Also, if they lost weight, then started eating again and gained weight, I could only imagine they simply again started over eating.
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> """
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> NEW YORK – UK synthetic biology company Evonetix said on Wednesday that it has signed a joint development and commercial supply agreement with semiconductor manufacturer Analog Devices (ADI) to expand the production capacity of its gene synthesis technology.
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787>
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787>
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Evonetix said the partners are planning to develop a gene foundry on a chip, which it envisions producing gene-length DNA in three days at the benchtop. The new platform will improve the quality, speed, and cost of developing synthetic biological products, such as vaccines, medicines, treatments, and therapies, Evonetix claimed.
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787>
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Previously, the Cambridge-based company said it had shown feasibility for its proprietary technology, which relies on selectively heating or cooling small regions on a semiconductor chip to achieve thermally controlled enzymatic DNA synthesis.
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787>
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> As part of the latest agreement, ADI has committed to investing in the continued development of Evonetix's semiconductor-based gene synthesis devices. The companies have also entered into a commercial supply agreement to secure the highly scalable manufacturing capability of ADI for Evonetix and its future customers.
12:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> """
12:33 < muurkha> nmz787: yes, people reliably start overeating after a period of temporary caloric restriction.  moreover, the effect seems to be permanent.  presumably the evolutionary reason for this is that extra fat is a survival asset in a famine-prone environment
12:35 < hprmbridge> nmz787> seems like potentially a mental problem
12:35 < hprmbridge> nmz787> mental/psychological
12:35 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I'm sure there's some epigenetics driving the mind too
12:36 < hprmbridge> nmz787> but like, if the person was in prison and in solitary confinement (for experimental clarity)... it seems they would be able to (lose and) maintain proper weight if the jailor limited their caloric intake
12:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> (solitary confinment only to prevent, in this thought experiment, they trading services for food from other prisoners)
12:40 < muurkha> yes, people in metabolic ward studies do reliably lose weight when their caloric intake is limited
12:41 < muurkha> which is significantly less dangerous than outright fasting, and they're usually screened for medical conditions that could make it dangerous
12:41 < muurkha> when the study is over they reliably gain it back
12:42 < muurkha> plus a bit extra, on average
12:43 < muurkha> people don't usually think of hormone levels as "a mental problem" but there obviously isn't a bright line between mental and non-mental aspects of human bodies.  people with liver disease reliably get irritable, etc.
12:44 < muurkha> there's some evidence that leptin and ghrelin levels are altered in a lasting way.  is that mental?  some people would say no
12:44 < L29Ah> checkmate CR research
12:44 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I wonder if China would ever implement caloric restriction as part of their social surveilance/control system
12:45 < L29Ah> nmz787: maybe after taking over the world
12:45 < smiles_alot> Supposedly they aready did with their rating system. 
12:45 < hprmbridge> nmz787> why would that be needed?
12:45 < hprmbridge> nmz787> they already have cameras everywhere
12:45 < hprmbridge> nmz787> they could detect the plumpness of a person, deny their credit card or whatever at restaurants/grocery-stores
12:46 < smiles_alot> China's 'social credit' system ranks citizens and punishes them. They could add weight to that system 
13:13 < docl> gene length in 3 days is currently considered impressive?
13:16 < muurkha> L29Ah: I would instead say "CR research checkmates idle speculation"
13:17 < docl> "The typical confirmed human gene has 12 exons of an average length of 236 base pairs each, separated by introns of an average length of 5,478 base pairs."
13:17 < docl> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Web/Newsltr/Spring03/human.html
13:27 < docl> I guess it's a lot more impressive if the introns are included in that estimate. 5 seconds per base vs 100. probably a cooling time involved since they are talking thermal control.
13:29 < docl> https://www.evonetix.com/technology
13:31 < docl> 10x faster than current tech, they say
13:31 < jrayhawk> nmz787: https://diabetesjournals.org/diabetes/article/62/8/2629/34105/Hypothalamic-Inflammation-Marker-or-Mechanism-of is a worthwhile read
13:32 < docl> https://www.evonetix.com/news/interview-matthew-hayes // interview with more details
13:36 < docl> "What makes our approach unique is that by integrating these elements we’re able to combine overlapping single-stranded DNA into double-stranded sequences in a way that removes synthesis errors. In addition to this, we’re miniaturising the process and achieving highly parallel synthesis within a machine small enough to sit on a laboratory bench top."
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17:15 < kanzure> docl: they are more TdT-based synthesis and also general electrochemical + phosphoramidite CMOS array chip stuff
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17:50 < kanzure> have i ever told you about the boy who cried existential wolf and why we don't take kindly to existential wolfsayers
17:52 < muurkha> kanzure: you are doomed to be the master of your fate and the captain of your soul
17:53 < kanzure> you are trifling with forces you can't possibly comprehend when you curse someone like that
17:53 < muurkha> I'm just the messenger, dude
17:53 < muurkha> it was true already
19:01 < Ashstar> unattruted quote from Invictus?
19:01 < Ashstar> unatributed
19:03 < Ashstar> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51642/invictus
19:25 < muurkha> indeed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invictus#Notable_uses
19:41 < Ashstar> yes, often quoted. Another often quoted is: Then out spake brave Horatius,The Captain of the Gate:To every man upon this earthDeath cometh soon or late. And how can man die betterThan facing fearful odds,For the ashes of his fathers,And the temples of his Gods 
19:46 < Ashstar> These ancient Romans had some tough men. The warrior that was captured trying to assasinate the king of the Etrusians, when he was about to be killed stuck his right arm in the fire, let it burn off while telling the king: "We have thousands who will do this, oh king to show you who we re"
19:46 < Ashstar> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Mucius_Scaevola
19:46 < Ashstar> are
19:47 < Ashstar> Scaevola means "Lefty" he was relesed by the Etrusian king, got that name and fame by his fellow Romans
19:47 < muurkha> the Romans loved to show off how tough they were
19:48 < Ashstar> no wonder they kicked ass took over all of Italy
19:48 < Ashstar> the Med
19:48 < muurkha> it was a major cultural value of theirs.  more so even than Victorians
19:48 < Ashstar> yeah, Gravitas
19:48 < muurkha> no, the people whose asses they kicked had that in common with them
19:48 < muurkha> as far as we can tell
19:49 < Ashstar> many
19:49 < Ashstar> Phyrus sure dod
19:49 < Ashstar> did
19:49 < muurkha> the competitive advantage the Romans had wasn't being more stoical
19:49 < muurkha> it was being better organized
19:49 < Ashstar> except it cost him ore than he gained
19:50 < Ashstar> hence, a Pyrrhic victory is that
19:50 < muurkha> all the people who were present are dead now, so what did he lose?
19:50 < Ashstar> not according to the great Stoics
19:50 < Ashstar> like Diogenes
19:51 < muurkha> Diogenes was a Cynic, not a Stoic
19:51 < Ashstar> or the Cynics
19:51 < muurkha> also, not Roman
19:52 < muurkha> he wasn't really into showing off how tough he was
19:52 < Ashstar> of course he wasn't e was from a Greek Island
19:52 < Ashstar> his father was busted counterfitting
19:52 < Ashstar> he was even in chains once
19:54 < Ashstar> they believed all act we do, that are part of nature, should be done without shame
19:55 < Ashstar> there is one famous story of Diogenes
19:56 < Ashstar> he was busted pleasuring himself, by a disciple. The disciple chided him.. Diogenes answered: "If only I could solve my hunger problems by rubbing my belly"
19:58 < Ashstar> by the way, the Romans greatly respected Greek philosophy
19:58 < Ashstar> Greek was mandatory for the well educated Roman
19:59 < Ashstar> it was the Etrusians that inherited the Greek alphabet
19:59 < Ashstar> well, the proto Greek
20:05 < muurkha> lots of famous stories about him
20:06 < muurkha> I think "greatly respected Greek philosophy" is pretty relative
20:06 < muurkha> they respected Greek philosophy a lot more than they respected other philosophy
20:06 < muurkha> but overall Roman society had very little respect for philosophy
20:07 < muurkha> like many societies, I suppose
20:07 < Ashstar> if it served their purporse
20:07 < Ashstar> they, above all else, were prgmatic
20:08 < Ashstar> until the 1st Cent BCE
20:08 < muurkha> that's all a bunch of nonsense
20:08 < Ashstar> what
20:09 < Ashstar> the civil wars
20:09 < Ashstar> the loss of the Republic
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20:11 < Ashstar> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_civil_wars_and_revolts
20:11 < muurkha> you're talking as if there was some agent controlling the Roman Republic over centuries, like someone playing Sim City, who could have a "purpose" or "be pragmatic"
20:12 < muurkha> that's nonsense.  it was just one damn thing after another.  there wasn't some master plan
20:12 < muurkha> different people had different purposes, sometimes in concert, sometimes in conflict
20:13 < muurkha> and all of them did things that served those purposes as well as things that didn't
20:13 < muurkha> and then they all died anyway
20:14 < Ashstar> what
20:14 < Ashstar> seriously
20:15 < Ashstar> I have no dog in that fight
20:15 < Ashstar> just stating history
20:15 < muurkha> good thing, because the fight was over 600 years ago
20:15 < muurkha> but you're not stating history, you're telling children's stories
20:15 < Ashstar> the Rise and Fall of both the Roman and Greeks interests me
20:15 < Ashstar> so, 
20:16 < Ashstar> over when?
20:16 < Ashstar> it was 2200 years ago
20:16 < muurkha> oh, the Roman Empire lasted until 1453
20:16 < Ashstar> to 2100
20:16 < muurkha> AD
20:16 < muurkha> little-known fact
20:17 < Ashstar> there where two
20:17 < Ashstar> there was a split
20:17 < Ashstar> after Constatine
20:17 < Ashstar> there were attemps, during Justinian, 530's
20:18 < Ashstar> to get Rome united, and it ws for a few short years
20:18 < muurkha> not Constantine, Diocletian
20:18 < Ashstar> East n West went their ways
20:18 < muurkha> 13 years before Constantine
20:19 < Ashstar> well, Constatine named Constatinalope
20:19 < Ashstar> so, Constatine
20:19 < Ashstar> demarkation point
20:20 < Ashstar> the huge splt from Rome, Church was 1054
20:20 < Ashstar> same year as the Crab Supernova
20:20 < Ashstar> btw
20:21 < muurkha> interesting that Constantinople is now the biggest city in Europe by population within city limits
20:22 < muurkha> though Moscow has greater urban and metropolitan populations
20:23 < Ashstar> Istanbul
20:23 < muurkha> yup
20:23 < muurkha> long time gone
20:23 < Ashstar> there is another demarkation point, 1453
20:24 < Ashstar> the conquest of Contastinalope
20:24 < muurkha> you'll notice that I mentioned that 8 minutes ago
20:24 < Ashstar> why we had to find other ways to access China
20:24 < muurkha> who?
20:24 < Ashstar> hence, the age of Portugal explorer
20:25 < muurkha> pretty sure lots of us could always access China
20:25 < Ashstar> then of course, Columbus
20:25 < Ashstar> the west
20:25 < Ashstar> they were cut off access to the orient
20:25 < Ashstar> after 1454
20:25 < Ashstar> Silk Road
20:26 < Ashstar> it was economically unfeaseble
20:26 < muurkha> yeah, some of us were
20:27 < Ashstar> Venice had trade relations with the Ottomansfor a few years
20:27 < Ashstar> but the access to China, spice, silk was limited
20:27 < Ashstar> so, it made us seek other routes
20:28 < muurkha> you weren't born yet
20:28 < Ashstar> hence, Henry the Navigator
20:28 < muurkha> it didn't make you seek other routes
20:28 < Ashstar> I wasn't
20:28 < Ashstar> thankfully
20:28 < muurkha> the humans are so silly
20:28 < Ashstar> rather be born in this time, now, despite it's issues
20:29 < Ashstar> at least a live dog is better than 20 dead lions
20:29 < Ashstar> I will bark
20:36 < muurkha> these are times of lions
20:36 < Ashstar> good luck
20:37 < Ashstar> dead lions, many, live lions who do anything but roar, few
20:38 < Ashstar> ratehr have a world of us dog, barking, maybe even trained to act to do good
20:40 < Ashstar> pee on those sacred totems, perhaps like the stupidly worded 2nd amendment, when all they knew was musket loaders, btw what happened to the clause" A well regulated militia.."?
20:42 < Ashstar> a well regulated bunch of mentally challended people who have free access to AR-15's?
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20:42 < Ashstar> we need balance, history has lessons that pass down to us, if we choose to learn
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21:46 < Ashstar> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8f3rdi
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 07 00:00:51 2023