--- Log opened Wed Dec 13 00:00:57 2023
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07:35 < fenn> kanzure did kevin roose use your transcript to write that article?
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07:46 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Yes
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12:01 < ike8> Death as a nootropic
12:01 < ike8> > evidence shows that 835 out of 1122 NDErs seemed to feel an increase in alertness and consciousness while studies proved no sign of electrical brain activity
12:01 < ike8> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience
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13:11 < fenn> psychedelics cause a decrease in neural activity; intelligent people have less neural firing... so sure, why not
13:13 < fenn> how to do it without causing brain damage tho?
13:14 < fenn> very hard to get IRB approval
13:17 < nsh> if you empty a vase of water into the ocean, it might feel similarly
13:17 < nsh> or perhaps a sponge is more apt
13:19 < nsh> Bardo Thodol is a guide to helping the contents of sponge recognise its nature as part of an ocean, so as not to return habitually to the next sponge
13:20 < nsh> "The Great Liberation Through Hearing In The Bardo"
13:26 < fenn> they did a remake of "flatliners"
13:41 < Ashstar> oh
13:41 < Ashstar> w Mr, Mc Squared
13:41 < Ashstar> wait
13:41 < Ashstar> the NDE
13:42 < Ashstar> w Julia Roberts, Kevin Bacon
13:43 < Ashstar> was an intersting movie, some serious questions, though
13:43 < Ashstar> UVA Perceptual Studies Dept has a lot of research
13:46 < nsh> (i oughtn't to have said 'part')
14:00 < Ashstar> fenn:  "psychedelics cause a decrease in neural activity; intelligent people have less neural firing.." ?
14:01 < Ashstar> https://news.yale.edu/2021/07/05/psychedelic-spurs-growth-neural-connections-lost-depression
14:02 < Ashstar> there is the refractory and recovery period while the neurons reset their normal activity
14:03 < Ashstar> if you push a system that tries to maintain a certain balance, it will push back while it adjusts
14:07 < Ashstar> "the lows" are from the increased metabolic enzymes that break down 5HT, Dopamine, etc
14:09 < fenn> i mean while you're having a "trip" with lots of subjective intensity when you'd expect the neurons to be going mad with activity, it's actually less activity than usual
14:10 < Ashstar> ic
14:11 < Ashstar> I guess that depends on EEG recordings and drug
14:11 < Ashstar> what wavelengths
14:11 < Ashstar> are monitored
14:12 < Ashstar> area of brain
14:14 < nsh> instrumentally, you should say that there is less of what you're measuring
14:14 < nsh> to go from there to "brain activity" is... presumptuous
14:15 < nsh> (1 Kings 19:11-13 comes to mind)
14:15 < nsh> or the pause before one hears three rather important words 
14:24 < fenn> well i don't know the details
14:25 < fenn> don't read so much into a shit response to a shit post
14:26 < Ashstar> nsh, were you putting up a Bible passage or something else?
14:27 < Ashstar> sure looks biblical
14:28  * nsh smiles
14:28 < Ashstar> got any from the Baghavad Ghita
14:29 < fenn> "intravenous administration of 2 mg of psilocybin induced a moderately intense psychedelic state that was associated with reductions of neuronal activity in brain regions such as the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) and the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC)."
14:30 < Ashstar> yeah, regional affects
14:30 < fenn> "involved in functions such as emotional regulation, cognitive processing, and introspection ... hallucinogens reduce activity in specific “hub” regions of the brain, potentially diminishing their ability to coordinate activity in downstream brain regions. In effect, psilocybin appears to inhibit brain regions that are responsible for constraining consciousness within the narrow boundaries of
14:30 < fenn> the normal waking state"
14:32 < Ashstar> key words, "coordinate - downstream activities'
14:32 < fenn> 1 Kings 19:11-13 "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by." Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And
14:32 < fenn> after the fire came a gentle whisper.
14:32 < Ashstar> sure, diskonesia
14:33 < Ashstar> lots of motor skill, hamd eye
14:33 < Ashstar> oh, man
14:33 < fenn> obviously the Lord was in his spaceship in orbit
14:34 < Ashstar> some of that, is so archain language
14:34 < Ashstar> and Joseph smote the Cannaites
14:34 < Ashstar> when was the last time you "smote" someoene?
14:35 < Betawolf> I smote a fly the other day
14:35 < fenn> when he smote off the sherriff's head with his bright blade
14:35 < fenn> only one r
14:35 < Ashstar> I just hate that we, get bombarded with this default stuff
14:36 < Ashstar> religion
14:36 < docl> would psilocybin raise the snr around here? at least my mad ramblings are on topic :P
14:36 < Betawolf> oh, I thought you were complaining about people using boring language
14:37 < Ashstar> targeted language, not some archain religiousity
14:38 < Ashstar> science, if possible
14:44 < Ashstar> hey, I respect peoples beliefs, it's just that growing up here in the west one get's hammered with obtuse quotations from the bible.. all the time. I am totally accepting of peoples right to believe. I spent time in a Bennedictine monastery. 
14:45 < docl> I remember an article a while back about using sunlight to separate materials for asteroids. I think they were talking about dust grains in this context, not ions. anyone help me find the link?
14:45 < muurkha> as a monk?
14:46 < Ashstar> novitiate
14:59 < nsh> "I will not deny, however, that in the course of the journey, he sometimes stopped at the edge of a meadow, at the entrance to a forest, to gather some herb (always the same one, I believe): and he would then chew it with an absorbed look. He kept some of it with him, and ate it in the moments of greatest tension (and we had a number of them at the abbey!). Once, when I asked him what it was, he said laughing that a good Christian can sometimes learn also from 
14:59 < nsh> the infidels, and when I asked him to let me taste it, he replied that herbs that are good for an old Franciscan are not good for a young Benedictine."
15:00 < docl> https://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/43126/4/Yarnoz_D_et_al_Pure_Passive_sorting_of_asteroid_materal_using_solar_radiation_pressure_10_Feb_2013.pdf
15:00 < nsh> (nor it seems some scriptures)
15:01 < docl> > This paper proposes a novel way of manipulating asteroid material by means of solar radiation pressure (SRP). We envisage a method for passively sorting material as a function of its grain size where SRP is used as a passive in-situ ‘mass spectrometer’. The analysis shows that this novel method allows an effective sorting of regolith material.
15:04 < docl> what I wonder is, can you do the same with plasma? turn the mongrel metal into a plasma, let light pressure slowly accelerate it at a differential rate depending on particle mass, then collect it out in nice neat layers?
15:08 < docl> if you rely on dust grains, it doesn't seem like a way to separate Ni-Fe from Pt. maybe you could do multiple cycles of deposition-sublimation at the focal point of a solar concentrator and wind up with separation that way
15:11 < nsh> it's been suggested 
15:11 < nsh> .t https://scholarworks.iupui.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/c80008de-bfcf-49d7-b118-89980abe8745/content
15:11 < EmmyNoether> Sorry, page isn't HTML
15:11 < nsh> 'Plasma Extraction of Metals in Space'
15:12 < nsh> ordinarily it'd be considered somewhat inefficient, but if you had some way of beaming a lot of radiative power (e.g. solar farms) then it might be favourable
15:13 < nsh> but you'd probably still use mass rather than electrical properties
15:13 < nsh> (to effect the separation)
15:13 < nsh> oh, as you suggest
15:13 < nsh> misread, sorry
15:14 < docl> yeah I was suggesting something different
15:14 < docl> I think I'm up to 4 different processes
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15:14 < fenn> individual atoms are too small to absorb sunlight
15:15 < docl> hmm. they do scatter it a bit though don't they?
15:15 < fenn> "multiple cycles of deposition-sublimation" sounds like a distillation column
15:17 < fenn> i always imagined this process going as a sphere in zero G with metal boiling off the surface, probably contained by magnetic fields like in an induction furnace
15:17 < Ashstar> at least you don't have to operate high vacuum machines to achieve vacuum, the issue would be containment, seperation
15:17 < Ashstar> imagine some sort of mass spec
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15:17 < Ashstar> except large
15:18 < Ashstar> you would have to figure what target material you would use
15:18 < Ashstar> for collectin the plasma
15:19 < Ashstar> vapor
15:19 < Ashstar> but using RF to heat it up
15:19 < Ashstar> that requires a lot of nrg
15:20 < fenn> you'd get it started with concentrated solar, since most regolith isn't very conductive
15:20 < Ashstar> then the coils for, I assume a magnetron
15:20 < fenn> the problem with running directly from concentrated sunlight for the whole operation is that the optics will get sputtered and stop being reflective
15:21 < Ashstar> yup
15:21 < Ashstar> you will have caused it to lose albido
15:21 < Ashstar> or gain
15:22 < fenn> could heat with e-beam instead
15:22 < docl> use electromagnetically contained plasma to shield the mirrors maybe? it gets viscous apparently
15:22 < fenn> sounds like science fiction
15:23 < docl> .wik Plasma_window
15:23 < EmmyNoether> "The plasma window (not to be confused with a plasma shield) is a technology that fills a volume of space with plasma confined by a magnetic field." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_window
15:24 < docl> https://archive.is/vFxwU
15:25 < Ashstar> reflectance data from the Apollo samples measured by Hapke et al. [20] show that lunar regolith has an albedo of 3-5% in the deep UV. 
15:25 < docl> probably too massive a system to be practical for protecting a solar concentrator
15:27 < Ashstar> yeah
15:28 < Ashstar> easier to use plasma from RF heated samples regolith, collect with a magnetron target
15:28 < Ashstar> while contained, of course
15:28 < fenn> that "plasma window" looks like a pinhole bored through an inch of copper
15:29 < fenn> fine for passing an e-beam through but i dunno about MW of sunlight
15:30 < Ashstar> well, depends on volume, surface area
15:30 < Ashstar> a MW
15:30 < Ashstar> that is .. hm 1 meter per 100 watts
15:30 < Ashstar> they have it up
15:30 < Ashstar> to
15:30 < fenn> the problem is etendue
15:31 < Ashstar> talking PV
15:31 < Ashstar> power
15:31 < Ashstar> if they use nuclear..
15:31 < Ashstar> ?
15:32 < Ashstar> I think the efficiency of the solar panels will depend a lot on if they haul them up or make them there
15:32 < fenn> i don't know why you're talking about solar panels
15:33 < fenn> electricity is electricity, who cares where it comes from
15:33 < Ashstar> just wondering what sort of solar array,, maybe its all RTG
15:34 < Ashstar> what would be the power source, then, fenn?
15:34 < Ashstar> RTG?
15:35 < fenn> ideally you'd focus sunlight directly on the thing you want to be hot, we were discussing ways to make that work
15:35 < Ashstar> your going to have changes in the molten regolith's albedo
15:36 < fenn> otherwise, sure, photovoltaics. probably CIGS since they're radiation resistant
15:36 < fenn> RTG is not a viable power source for space industrialization
15:36 < Ashstar> are we talking moon, asteroids?
15:37 < fenn> yes
15:37 < muurkha> fenn: why not?
15:37 < Ashstar> well, ok, still you got a lot to haul there
15:37 < fenn> low power to mass ratio, requires military industrial complex cooperation and politically unfavorable launches of radioactive material
15:37 < Ashstar> lets start with the moon
15:37 < Ashstar> you got a lot of Si
15:38 < Ashstar> other elements
15:38 < Ashstar> you will need to have a place you can stage shit, maufacturing that has a relatively lower gravity well
15:39 < fenn> right, also you can't bootstrap nuclear fuel reprocessing very easily, or at least i don't know how that would work
15:39 < Ashstar> like the moon
15:39 < fenn> meanwhile, silicon PV production from lunar regolith has already been demonstrated iirc
15:39 < Ashstar> yup
15:39 < fenn> (by blue origin of all things)
15:39 < Ashstar> go figure
15:40 < Ashstar> Bezos is already setting up property deeds
15:40 < Ashstar> for moon'
15:41 < Ashstar> I wonder what sort of scrambble it will be when we do set up there
15:43 < fenn> "safety zones"
15:43 < fenn> ;)
15:44 < Ashstar> shit, we can't even work together as a nation..
15:44 < Ashstar> let alone when we divi up the moon's resources
15:44 < Ashstar> Antartic approach?
15:45 < fenn> i couldn't possibly comment
15:45 < Ashstar> me neither
15:45 < Ashstar> we probably will have other concerns
15:45 < Ashstar> by then
15:46 < Ashstar> it is interesting to prognosticate
15:46 < fenn> i mean geopolitical strategy is not something i can decide and then everyone has to do what i say
15:46 < Ashstar> we can speculate
15:47 < fenn> it looks like the world's gearing up for a race to the lunar south pole in the next decade
15:47 < Ashstar> based on current life
15:47 < Ashstar> yep
15:47 < Ashstar> sems so
15:47 < Ashstar> seems
15:47 < fenn> on the other hand, maybe there is plenty of partially shaded craters to go around
15:48 < Ashstar> that is a hard area to land
15:48 < Ashstar> very tricky dynamics
15:48 < fenn> most of the mass savings from ISRU propellant production would be from oxygen; hauling up liquid hydrogen from earth wouldn't be so bad i guess
15:48 < Ashstar> also, the temp at the bottom of those craters is close to absolute
15:49 < Ashstar> 0
15:50 < Ashstar> if you got water, power hydrogen is there'
15:50 < Ashstar> of course
15:50 < fenn> oxygen can be produced from any regolith, water is not necessary
15:50 < Ashstar> yes
15:51 < muurkha> with enough heat and low pressure, yes
15:51 < fenn> hydrogen ore reduction, just recycle the water produced
15:51 < Ashstar> just would be nice to have all that "huge amount" of water
15:51 < Ashstar> in those polar craters
15:52 < Ashstar> the data shows so
15:52 < Ashstar> at least the inpacted ejecta data
15:53 < Ashstar> want to go off in a sort of tangent?
15:53 < Ashstar> what do you think, will we ever achieve space elevator?
15:54 < Ashstar> nevermind, I got to get some work done
15:59 < docl> orbital rings seem more probable than classic space elevator imo
16:17 < docl> I like the e-beam idea
16:21 < docl> Ashstar: if you like prognosticating about space colony like things my mad scheme for aerographene floating city-factory platforms might be of interest. they would float in the stratosphere and have access to a natural vacuum + consistent solar power.
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16:24 < docl> AG tends to be porous (so just about as heavy as air under usual conditions), but my workaround was to rotate it to produce a relative vacuum. you could also fill with hydrogen or helium and seal the outside. but my reasoning is that you want big cheap vacuum chambers so you can make more aerographene (also called aerographite)
16:25 < docl> .yt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnCmvxt2jn8
16:25 < docl> kind of neat ionic thruster build
16:27 < docl> of course that wouldn't work in space because there's no air to thrust on. but sputtering material with an e-beam could work
16:34 < Ashstar> how would you make sure you had the right stratospheric boyancy to maintain altitude?
16:34 < Ashstar> also, jet stream?
16:34 < Ashstar> H gas?
16:35 < Ashstar> hard to contain, sneeky little atom goes where it goes
16:35 < Ashstar> even through glass
16:35 < Ashstar> metal
16:36 < Ashstar> but yeah, sounds cool
16:36 < Ashstar> at least in orbit your always falling
16:37 < Ashstar> just missin the Earth
16:37 < Ashstar> g
16:37 < docl> well, once you get high enough it contains a vacuum naturally. maybe just use H to ascend
16:38 < Ashstar> you can only go as high as your boyancy offsets your weight
16:38 < Ashstar> with gass
16:38 < Ashstar> gas
16:38 < docl> a lot of the conditions would be space like, relative high vacuum + high radiation. so you'd need a space suit to go outside.
16:38 < Ashstar> like H
16:39 < Ashstar> definitely
16:40 < Ashstar> I do believe we will have LEO manufactoring, assembly in LEO
16:41 < Ashstar> next decade or tw
16:41 < Ashstar> we've learned a lot with the ISS
16:41 < docl> well, the AG would tend to shrink if you evacuated it under full atmosphere, but at 1/100th of an atmosphere it is rigid enough to keep its shape. spinning structures made of it could keep their shape by centrifugal force and could self evacuate as well (like a squirrelcage fan)
16:42 < muurkha> AG?
16:42 < muurkha> oh, aerographene
16:44 < Ashstar> that might be suitable for space, we have a trade off for radiation exposure and 2% per month bone loss in zero g
16:45 < Ashstar> a rotatating station would be helpful
16:48 < Ashstar> the radiation varies with location of orbit
16:48 < Ashstar> Earth's two main belts extend from an altitude of about 640 to 58,000 km (400 to 36,040 mi) above the surface, in which region radiation levels vary. The belts are in the inner region of Earth's magnetic field. They trap energetic electrons and protons
16:51 < Ashstar> oh well, nobody gets out of life alive
16:52 < Ashstar> might as well have a better view of the universe
17:06 < docl> I wonder if there's a way to use those high speed particles industrially?
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17:20 < Ashstar> docl, actually there is about 1 Kg of antiparticles trapped aroun the Eart
17:20 < Ashstar> h
17:21 < Ashstar> sorry, keep meaning on ditching this laptop with is shitty keys
17:21 < Ashstar> if we could only harness them, contain and direct them
17:24 < docl> antiparticles? neat!
17:24 < Ashstar> something that is ways off, technologically
17:24 < Ashstar> NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts–funded studies have proposed magnetic scoops to collect antimatter that naturally occurs in the Van Allen belts of Earth, although only about 10 micrograms of antiprotons are estimated to exist in the entire belt.
17:24 < docl> ah, micrograms
17:24 < Ashstar> the magnetic field too
17:25 < docl> wonder how much kinetic energy?
17:25 < Ashstar> I had read up to 1 Kg
17:25 < Ashstar> 1.8x1014J peer gram
17:25 < Ashstar> per
17:26 < Ashstar> 1.8 X 10^14 Joules
17:27 < Ashstar> to put in perspective
17:27 < Ashstar> hat's 43 kilotons of TNT equivalent, or around the magnitude of the Little Boy atomic bomb dropped in Hiroshima
17:29 < Ashstar> if we could gather that, it is constanly generated from the Sun, we would have such a fanastic fuel
17:30 < muurkha> 1.8e14 joules is about 10 seconds of world marketed energy consumption (which is 18 terawatts)
17:30 < docl> .wik Orders_of_magnitude_(energy)
17:30 < EmmyNoether> " / This list compares various energies in joules (J), organized by order of magnitude. /  The joule is named after James Prescott Joule." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(energy)
17:31 < muurkha> oh, but that was per gram, not per planet's worth of Van Allen belts
17:31 < docl> how fast does it regenerate I wonder?
17:31 < muurkha> and you're saying that the amount in the belts is about five orders of magnitude lower than that
17:31 < muurkha> it probably doesn't regenerate very fast or we would see more light from the Van Allen belts annihilating particles than from the actual sun in the sky
17:32 < muurkha> night wouldn't be noticeably darker than daytime
17:32 < muurkha> so I don't know about this fantastic fuel stuff
17:33 < Ashstar> if we could gather what there is
17:34 < Ashstar> we're a long long ways from making it economically here
17:34 < muurkha> but you seem to be saying that "what there is" is 10 micrograms, which is only about two gigajoules
17:35 < muurkha> the energy in a quarter barrel of oil
17:37 < muurkha> we can put an upper limit on how fast that gets replenished
17:37 < muurkha> .units 2 earthradius / c
17:37 < muurkha> that's 43 milliseconds
17:38 < muurkha> that is, the fastest the solar wind can be going is the speed of light, and so the fastest it can replenish those 10 micrograms is once every 43 milliseconds
17:38 < Ashstar> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/729984/lightning-produces-antimatter-does-an-h-bomb
17:38 < muurkha> 1.8 gigajoules divided by 43 milliseconds is 42 gigawatts
17:39 < Ashstar> I guess what I read was incorrect, 
17:39 < Ashstar> it stuck in my mind  at the time
17:40 < muurkha> that's not *totally* insignificant.  I mean it's like two or three big hydroelectric plants
17:40 < Ashstar> lightning also produces it
17:40 < docl> https://science.nasa.gov/missions/hubble/hubble-captures-vivid-auroras-in-jupiters-atmosphere/
17:40 < docl> maybe there's a bunch near Jupiter?
17:41 < muurkha> yo momma so fat she got her own Van Allen belts
17:42 < Ashstar> any event that creates gamma ray photons with energies of 1 MeV or higher can create antimatter, because a sufficiently high energy gamma ray photon can decay into an electron-positron pair
17:42 < Ashstar> lol
17:42 < docl> finally an expensive enough thing to motivate space mining investors -- antimatter :)
17:43 < docl> hmm, can you focus gamma rays? I read you can use gold mirrors to reflect x-rays at a slight angle, not sure if that's true of gamma
17:43 < Ashstar> do you why anteaters may be going to space?
17:44 < Ashstar> they are full of antimatter
17:44 < muurkha> gamma rays and X-rays overlap
17:44 < muurkha> heh
17:44 < superkuh> Thorium has an isotope with a metastable excitation state that emits a gamma ray that is such low energy it's in the UV light range, ~310nm. ref: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1533-4
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17:46 < muurkha> wow, cool
17:46 < superkuh> Huh. The page now says 149nm... I'm sure I double checked.
17:46  * superkuh loads up the paper again.
17:47 < Ashstar> Cherenko radiation?
17:47 < muurkha> thorium decays through the weak interaction too.  does the metastable excitation state affect its probability to decay?
17:47 < muurkha> no
17:47 < Ashstar> that's way into the UV
17:47 < Ashstar> 149nm
17:48 < Ashstar> enough to ionize
17:49 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:49 < muurkha> it's outside the vacuum UV range, though; it's UVC that can go through air
17:49 < muurkha> flooded: your test_ failed
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 14 00:00:58 2023