--- Log opened Fri Dec 15 00:00:59 2023 00:03 -!- hprmbridge [~hprmbridg@user/fenn/bot/fennbots] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:05 -!- hprmbridge [~hprmbridg@user/fenn/bot/fennbots] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:02 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:07 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:13 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:17 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:18 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:19 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:23 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:25 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:43 -!- juri__ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:46 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:52 -!- juri__ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:54 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:04 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:04 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:05 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:16 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:30 < L29Ah> > The Vitamin That Cleanses & Gives You a Red Hot Natural High! 02:32 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:36 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:39 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:40 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:40 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:47 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:50 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:09 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:10 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:11 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:19 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:20 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:36 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:48 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:53 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:23 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:27 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:28 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:34 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:35 < docl> https://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/11/hypervelocity-macron-accelerators.html 04:35 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:44 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:47 -!- balrog [znc@user/balrog] has quit [Quit: Bye] 04:48 -!- balrog [znc@user/balrog] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:55 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:02 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:04 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:13 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:24 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:26 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:29 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:34 -!- juri__ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:35 < fenn> muurkha> it's hilarious to read someone talking about the importance of IQ and high-IQ genes who misspells both "Terence Tao" and "Genghis Khan" 05:35 < fenn> this has been bugging me 05:36 < docl> https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/pdf/2020/09/aa38687-20.pdf 05:36 < fenn> if you restrict the "should" narrative to only high-IQ elite people, it becomes a sort of cognitive / genetic imperialism 05:37 < fenn> "we should make more smart people. why? because the smart people say so!" 05:37 < fenn> this generalizes to: 05:37 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:37 < fenn> "we should make more X people. why? because the X people say so!" 05:37 < fenn> we don't actually know that the smart people are correct. of course you value your comparative advantage, it's what gets you the most stuff! 05:38 < fenn> maybe god is keeping score and the kind people have the most points 05:38 -!- juri__ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38 < fenn> maybe an alien superintelligence is keeping score and we don't even have a word for what's important 05:39 < fenn> maybe intelligence is not the most important thing for developing technological capability, but it's correlated with whatever actually is important, and somehow we've missed it 05:40 < fenn> anyway, the main point is: if "normal" people value IQ and want to improve themselves or their children, smart people should not feel offended. normalizing human improvement has the likely consequence of human improvement happening 05:41 < fenn> the market is bigger, economies of scale, investment, and policy changes happen 05:46 -!- test_ is now known as _flood 05:54 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:55 < docl> do 6900km/s collisions cause antimatter to form? 05:57 < docl> about 24 GJ/g 05:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://ccsb.scripps.edu/gallery/mycoplasma_model/ 05:59 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:59 -!- juri__ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:05 -!- juri__ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:07 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:17 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:25 -!- Ashstar [~Ashstar@mobile-166-171-250-36.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:27 -!- Ashstar [~Ashstar@mobile-166-171-250-36.mycingular.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:28 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:35 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:36 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:41 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:52 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.115.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:53 -!- juri_ [~juri@implicitcad.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:26 < docl> fenn: some things that correlate with IQ but are not it that are relevant to tech progress: 1) narrative setting, like what's the story being told that people will try to fill in the gaps on? 2) cross-pollination of ideas, like getting idea A to fit context B, involves a cognitive skill like transfer learning. 3) rigor, like using real numbers and making sure they add up before producing confident 08:26 < docl> claims 08:44 < docl> there might be others but those are three reasonably central examples that come to mind. maybe @jason.crawford can think of others 08:46 < docl> if you don't use narrative, people don't coordinate. if you don't cross-pollinate things, you have siloed data that's only interesting to specialists. and lack of rigor is fairly self explanatory, confident claims untethered to reality or even each other are useless 08:48 < docl> I think academia trains smart people to overspecialize towards rigor. it's difficult and makes you seem smart, and is grade-able. if you break the silos open, you get a much bigger space of potentially useful information. and if you supply a narrative people will work towards complementary goals. 08:52 < docl> however, cognitively and socially speaking, these actually all come at a price in terms of each other. if you can't double down because you're trying for rigor, you lose narrative power. if you try to mix unrelated ideas you lose precision *and* the narrative gets harder to follow. so there's more steps in correcting the flow if you try to work on all three. it is an achievable workflow though 09:16 -!- deltab [~deltab@95.154.230.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:32 < juri_> so, is anyone but me looking at the open source imaging initiative? I would expect I'm not the only person here drooling at home MRI systems. 09:35 < docl> hadn't heard of it -- nice! 09:35 < docl> https://www.opensourceimaging.org/ 09:36 < juri_> they have ~3 working prototypes, and a year of funding in front of them. 09:42 < L29Ah> https://wiki.opensourceimaging.org/Hardware meh 09:43 < juri_> yeah, they suffer from the usual 'wiki not up to date' problem. for instance, their wiki points to slack, but they moved to element a while back. 09:44 < L29Ah> seems like the wiki wasn't touched at all for four years 09:44 < docl> I see they also wrote their own slicer 09:48 < juri_> it's the cool thing the kids are doing nowadays. ;) 09:52 < docl> :) 10:04 < docl> https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/pdf/2020/09/aa38687-20.pdf // Low-cost precursor of an interstellar mission 10:04 < docl> (just adding the title, linked this earlier) 10:06 < docl> I was misremembeing that as being about small particles, but I think the math works for small (micrometer to millimeter) particles too. you could probably be slamming a stream of tiny black dots into Saturn's rings at 7000 km/sec 10:07 < docl> the question is, does that really increase the antimatter production rate? or do you need them moving even faster? 10:08 < docl> another question in my mind is, can you achieve market friendly rates (say 1kg/yr) with a reasonable mass budget? 10:10 < docl> 1kg antimatter is equivalent to roughly 5 billion dollars of electricity. but it works to produce fusion and high velocity plasma plumes for rocket launch. so it should be quite a bit more valuable than electricity energy. 10:13 < docl> hmm, going to double check my orders of magnitude on that 10:16 < docl> 9x10^19 J/kg antimatter = 1.8 x 10^20 J/kg when combined with matter. should be 180 EJ or 50 x 10^12 kWh. I guess that should be $5T not $5B 10:19 < docl> ah no that was 9x10^16. $5B was correct. 10:21 < docl> assuming $0.10/kWh 11:05 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 11:05 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:28 -!- deltab [~deltab@95.154.230.49] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:38 -!- Ashstar [~Ashstar@mobile-166-171-250-36.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41 -!- Ashstar [~Ashstar@mobile-166-171-250-36.mycingular.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:11 < hprmbridge> Eli> How much would a homemade mri cost? Don’t you need expensive components for that? 12:15 < L29Ah> pretty sure the most expensive thing is the huge-ass superconducting magnet 12:17 < hprmbridge> Eli> Plus the coolant, no? 12:17 < hprmbridge> Eli> You can get an mri in Texas for $500 cash 12:18 < L29Ah> you can gen an mri in .ru for $20 cash 12:19 < L29Ah> if you mean the imaging service, not the device 12:31 < hprmbridge> Eli> That’s why my proposal is voluntary and offered to people who are already seeking sperm donations. The reality is that people who have special genetic straits related to intelligence tend to have less of an evolutionary mismatch with modern society. There is probably a power law with respect to who receives money in our society. People who have traits in alignment with the goals of society are 12:31 < hprmbridge> Eli> going to do better. The 10x engineer receives 100x the money. This doesn’t impact someone’s value as seen by god, which is infinite. But societies value of humans is commercial and transactional. Through that lens, reducing evolutionary mismatch should result in less suffering, no? 12:40 < docl> it's easy enough to imagine less long term suffering over many decades if we do selective breeding, but how long is that going to be a useful approach? seems like it might wind up being one of those bullet-biting exercises where you imagine a response to a fictitious scenario to no particular end. do we really think genetic engineering is going to remain out of reach for long enough that the tradeoffs 12:40 < docl> will be recouped? if the tradeoffs are low enough, sure, and people will probably do it voluntarily anyway. but it sort of goes against the grain (and thus causes some short term suffering) for most people to raise someone else's child because you think their genes might be better adapted to the world than your own. 12:51 < docl> given no other option, an infertile person who is willing to raise a child related to their spouse with someone else's genes isn't uncommon, but I don't think this typically happens without some mixed feelings involved. 13:45 < hprmbridge> Eli> There’s 30000-60000 babies born from sperm donation every year. It’s already happening. And you are already given options for the type of sperm donor you want. 14:03 < docl> better sperm options would be valuable in that context, sure. but is selection better than engineering? I'll grant some short term value 14:15 < hprmbridge> Eli> let a thousand flowers bloom 14:28 < L29Ah> In 1888, Lieut. F. Elton reported that Ugi beach people in the Solomon Islands killed their infants at birth by burying them, and women were also said to practice abortion. They reported that it was too much trouble to raise a child, and instead preferred to buy one from the bush people.[157] 14:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> why not memory instead of IQ 14:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what, low IQ high memory person wouldn't be able to process all the remembered information or techniques? 14:57 < fenn> if you start picking apart cognitive capabilities at a low level, IQ stops existing 14:57 < fenn> IQ is a statistical property 14:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> okay well let's focus on real cognitive abilities 14:58 < L29Ah> solving captchas 14:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yeah id like that ability 14:59 < fenn> unfortunately we don't really know what "real" cognitive capabilities are either 14:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> why come memory isn't a real one? 14:59 < fenn> it is 14:59 < L29Ah> there are different memories and they are in a conflict, a bit 15:00 < fenn> working memory, short term memory, episodic memory, procedural memory, long term episodic memory, muscle memory, what else? 15:00 < L29Ah> and things like long-term memory are poorly testable 15:01 < fenn> i'm pretty sure the things i just listed are actually the main functions of various brain structures 15:02 < muurkha> I don't think any of them are localized to particular brain structures except maybe muscle memory 15:02 < muurkha> also working memory is another name for short-term memory 15:02 < fenn> probably smell memory is a weird specialized thing that nobody cares about much, but still exists in spite of us 15:02 < L29Ah> something-something hippocampus 15:02 < fenn> no muurkha by working memory i mean "what was i doing before i walked into the kitchen" 15:02 < muurkha> well, okay: 15:02 < fenn> uh 15:02 < muurkha> > Working memory is often used synonymously with short-term memory, but some theorists consider the two forms of memory distinct, assuming that working memory allows for the manipulation of stored information, whereas short-term memory only refers to the short-term storage of information.[2][4] 15:03 < fenn> no muurkha by short term memory i mean "what was i doing before i walked into the kitchen" 15:03 < muurkha> fenn: that's short-term memory to the theorists who draw a distinction 15:03 * fenn exhibits a working memory failure 15:04 < L29Ah> > what was i doing before i walked into the kitchen 15:04 < L29Ah> doesn't seem necessary to remember, i often don't; short-term plans, though, are much more important 15:04 < fenn> whereas working memory is like, understanding a complex sentence, or balancing on a ladder while avoiding the live electric wires and holding the screwdriver and flashlight in your mouth while trying to unscrew the electrical connector behind the frobnitz 15:04 < fenn> working memory = "about 7 chunks" 15:06 < L29Ah> btw does n-back training work for anything but the n-back test? 15:07 < fenn> "evidence for such effects are lacking" 15:09 < fenn> n-back doesn't feel like a "game" it feels like work or exercise 15:09 < fenn> there better be a damned good reason to do it 15:10 < fenn> dual-n-back anyway 15:15 < fenn> "If you seek to improve your life, and want the greatest ‘bang for the buck’, you are well-advised to look elsewhere." 15:16 < juri_> so, their homebuild MRI system is ~20K. probably more like 15. 15:17 < juri_> and they use permanent magnets, not "huge ass superconducting magnets". 15:17 < juri_> they're imaging at a lower field strength, so not useful for fMRI, but miles better than an x-ray. 15:18 < L29Ah> xray can see things mri cannot 15:18 < L29Ah> like cartillages 15:19 < juri_> sure, but it's useless for think-meat. 15:20 < juri_> I might try to build one.. but i've got some pretty big projects already. 15:21 < fenn> it sounds like a big project 15:22 < fenn> ideally you'd have many people with experience in the various subfields 15:22 < juri_> looks like it's an order of magnitude more difficult then a build-your-own, program-your-own 3d printer, that's all. 15:23 < fenn> programming, electronics, RF, mechanical, medical imaging 15:23 < juri_> (sorry, fighting keyboard trouble) 15:25 < L29Ah> a RNA printer would be something inbetween 15:26 < fenn> there's a lot of stuff here https://www.opensourceimaging.org/projects/ 15:26 < juri_> They seem to have reasonably documented their work, both in the websites, gitlab, etc, and in the form of several days worth of presentations, which i've watched. 15:29 < juri_> i highly recommend their most recent build workshop, which is 7 hours of presentations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q0dXg17E 15:32 < juri_> it's highly educational, if nothing else. also, there is a good talk on 56T, 7T, and 50mT MRI systems at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q0dXg17E 15:34 < juri_> er. sorry. cut and paste pain. field strength talk is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URVTNamWikU 15:34 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Wash your hands. Don't touch your face. Avoid fossil fuels and animal products. Have no/fewer children. Protest, elect sane politicians. Invest ecologically.] 15:42 < hprmbridge> Eli> 56T MRIs?🤔 15:43 < superkuh> Pulsed. 15:44 < L29Ah> sounds like Blindsight setting 15:47 < superkuh> Looks like the rise time is a good fraction of a second. 15:47 < superkuh> Even so, with that much absolute intensity the rate of change is probably pretty high. 16:01 < L29Ah> > If you mean the strongest magnetic field produced by humans is 45.22 teslas (T), which was achieved by a hybrid magnet at the Steady High Magnetic Field Facility (SHMFF) in Hefei, China in August 2022 16:15 < fenn> just don't turn your head and you'll be fine 16:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what we really need is at home positron emission imaging 16:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> or a supercollider for neuro anatomy funtimes 16:36 < fenn> isn't that just a fancy X-ray source 16:38 < fenn> how high resolution could PET go, theoretically 16:39 < fenn> assume the object being imaged is not squishy and going lumpalump 16:40 < fenn> aw. "the size of the positron's path before it annihilates with an electron, which is about 1 millimeter" 16:44 < juri_> y 16:45 < juri_> whoops. sorry. 17:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hey 1mm not bad 17:14 < fenn> not good 17:45 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:49 -!- _flood [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> juri_ says $100 metal 3d printer. Just started watching it https://youtu.be/W1d36wbx_yg 23:17 -!- Ashstar [~Ashstar@mobile-166-171-250-36.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17 -!- Ashstar [~Ashstar@mobile-166-171-250-36.mycingular.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:18 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap --- Log closed Sat Dec 16 00:00:00 2023