--- Log opened Sat Dec 16 00:00:00 2023
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03:31 < nsh> .m https://twitter.com/SwiftOnSecurity/status/1735885098652684355
03:31 < AugustaAva> ​twitter.com <no title>
03:31 < nsh> 'This 10min CGI short film on a future where humanity finds a planet and drops self-replicating factories and mining ships to extract a planet to build capital ships, and then just abandons it for the machines to continue forever, is super interesting.'
03:32 < nsh> .t https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cntb3wcZdTw
03:32 < EmmyNoether> SOLSTICE - 5 - YouTube
03:34 < nsh> impressively good billowing 
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07:05 < docl> fun to watch, but very little of accurate substance
07:07 < nsh> oh?
07:07 < nsh> nothing struck me as inaccurate
07:07 < nsh> it's speculative but seemed on the side of 'hard sci-fi'
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07:10 < docl> lots of plot points that strain credulity. like, they have the ability to make self replicating factories, but they don't have lots of experience with using them close to earth? and don't have a way to turn them off or make them do anything besides produce useless warships?
07:11 < docl> reminds me of the orbital ring movie trailer a bit (not sure if they ever made the movie) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIrGfMDEOEI
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07:20 < nsh> that's the premise
07:20 < nsh> you can't start arguing with the premise
07:20 < nsh> lol
07:20 < nsh> well, i suppose you can if you like :)
07:44 < docl> hey I didn't even mention the ridiculousness of having ftl travel and still having this problem
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07:46 < docl> also why not just use tungsten rods from orbit? and why is all that manufacturing happening directly on the planet? they do realize the crust being removed will expose the magma layer, right?
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09:20 < fenn> new space engineers trailer looks epic
09:42 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Would exposed magna just cool into new crust?
09:43 < fenn> clearly they're only mining the ancient alien bat guano layer, not all the way down
10:02 < juri_> nmz787: that metal printing is interesting, but not in a sense of toughness fashion.
11:27 < docl> @nmz787 yes, given enough time. but it takes millions of years to chew through a planet that way. that's one of the important limits on this approach for planetary disassembly. (large spherical shapes have tiny surface areas relative to volume when compared to smaller / skinnier objects)
11:30 < docl> the printer is just a more effective approach for electroplating plastic, project quine style. still rather neat for printed circuits and probably a lot of things. note how he uses an electron wind based ion thruster for cooling. I wonder if printed plastic and metal composite structures can be designed for toughness as well?
11:47 < fenn> it's cute and low tech but i'd rather have some generic software for laying fibers or wires along an arbitrary 3d surface
11:48 < fenn> bonus points if it's a 5 axis slicing algorithm
11:58 < muurkha> nsh: if these actors are CGI, CGI has gotten a lot better since I last saw
12:02 < muurkha> nsh: this film betrays an impressive lack of comprehension of informatics and exponential growth
12:02 < nsh> informatics?
12:03 < muurkha> (not to mention materials science)
12:03 < muurkha> docl: it doesn't take millions of years, don't be silly
12:03 < nsh> machines om-nom-nom planet, make ships
12:03 < nsh> what's to get wrong
12:03 < nsh> the mistake you're making is thinking about this concept as people who've taken similar concepts seriously
12:04 < nsh> and not the premise of allegorical tale
12:04 < nsh> it's like reading shakespeare and saying "actually most of the time kings didn't talk in rhyming verse"
12:04 < nsh> that's not the point
12:05 < nsh> if it was accurate then it would deliver the intended effect
12:05 < nsh> *wouldn't
12:05 < nsh> this is how drama works
12:08 < muurkha> docl: suppose you start with a single self-replicating clanking replicator that weighs 1000kg and takes 30 years to reproduce itself, which is roughly the economic growth rate since the Industrial Revolution.  The Earth's crust is about 6e22 kg.  your initial seed factory will require 76 doublings to consume the Earth's crust, which takes 2270 years
12:08 < docl> muurkha: I'm talking about cooling rates here
12:08 < docl> also it's been a while since I did the math, I'll need to recheck it to be sure
12:09 < muurkha> if instead of 1000kg you start with a seed factory weighing an attogram, roughly the smallest possible seed factory, that adds another 80 doublings, so you need an additional 2400 years
12:09 < docl> of course you can go much faster by being smarter about cooling
12:11 < fenn> i think they just wanted to make some cool graphics in blender, then tacked a half-baked story on
12:11 < docl> yeah... I should be happy they thought to do a story about self replicating robots at all
12:12 < fenn> "guys, vector displacement shaders are so cool. looks like some kinda alien geological artifact"
12:16 < fenn> if i wanted to *ahem* disassemble some liquid on the inside planet, what would be the best way to do that?
12:17 < fenn> lava buckets on rotovators?
12:19 < muurkha> the problem with this film is that, like Star Trek, it presumes industrial-age social relations that are contingent upon the characteristics of industrial-age production
12:20 < fenn> can you explain how star trek is relevant
12:22 < fenn> it's heavily implied in voyager that replicators are energy intensive
12:23 < fenn> (one wonders why they don't just replicate humans on demand)
12:24 < muurkha> it's as if hunter-gatherers told a story about an industrialized society with no specialization beyond gender roles in which the highest honors are reserved for the most agile hunters, there are no rich and poor people
12:26 < fenn> are you saying the specializations in star trek are not fine grained enough?
12:26 < muurkha> no
12:27 < fenn> are you saying there should be a reputation currency in star trek?
12:28 < muurkha> well, I don't know what Star Trek post-scarcity social relations would really look like
12:29 < muurkha> but you have, yes, replicators, but the replicators are used to produce totally ordinary things like Earl Grey tea
12:29 < fenn> that's sort of the joke
12:29 < fenn> like going on holiday to the moon
12:29 < muurkha> instead of things that you can't make without replicators
12:29 < muurkha> similarly, nanites
12:30 < muurkha> similarly, transporters
12:30 < fenn> energy and computational power are so abundant, we use it to make absurdly wasteful things like hot water with a little flavoring
12:30 < muurkha> yes, that's fine, we use the internet and pocket supercomputers to look at photos of cats
12:31 < muurkha> but we also use them to do things like bazaar-style open-source software and cryptocurrencies that you can't do without the internet
12:32 < muurkha> and they've broken down, to a significant extent, the regimes of control of information that existed previously
12:32 < muurkha> Star Trek doesn't engage at all with the question of how abundant energy and computational power would change social relations
12:32 < nsh> and enabled others
12:32 < muurkha> yes
12:32 < fenn> unfortunately star trek was primarily driven by writers who had no interest in hard sci-fi, self restraint, logical consistency, technological plausibility, etc.
12:33 < muurkha> right.  instead Star Trek limits itself to reproducing 19th-century narratives about social relations in the British Navy
12:33 < fenn> there is the star trek technical manual which covers a lot of this stuff, but most writers couldn't be bothered to consult it
12:34 < muurkha> docl: what do you mean about cooling rates?
12:37 < muurkha> the credits on this film list four actors, so maybe they aren't CGI
12:39 < fenn> they aren't CGI
12:41 < muurkha> well, I just mean nsh described it as a "10min CGI short film"
12:42 < nsh> ah, the actors are real just the rest is mostly CGI afaict
12:42 < nsh> probably not the backgrounds to the scenes with the actors either 
12:43 < muurkha> yeah, prolly bluescreen
12:43 < nsh> the AI news thing is a better representation of the currentish state of air
12:43 < muurkha> ?
12:43 < nsh> https://nitter.net/channel1_ai/status/1734591810033373231
12:43 < nsh> *art
12:46 < muurkha> .t
12:46 < EmmyNoether> HTTPError: HTTP Error 403: Forbidden (title:75)
12:46 < muurkha> .m
12:46 < muurkha> whatever
12:46 < muurkha> noise
12:46 < muurkha> sorry, it's 32° here and I don't have a lot of patience today.  it's not your fault
12:55 < docl> muurkha: what I mean is that if you strip away the crust you get high temperature magma, have to wait for it to cool to make stuff from it. planets are large so the square cube law works against you in this context. it's pretty complex since the atmosphere can carry heat (or trap it, depending on composition)
13:00 < fenn> lava buckets
13:00 < fenn> you're going to take it to space anyway, why wait for it to cool down?
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13:17 < docl> that's my thinking, yes
13:28 < Ashstar> https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=917883913029536&set=a.649152849902645
13:31 < nsh> probably feels warmer with fenn hurling magma at your imagination
13:31 < nsh> you should do a house swap
13:31 < nsh> :)
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15:02 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> just made a new library for human brain / cortical organoid/spheroid signal analysis ( eeg/ecog/mea oriented )
15:02 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> https://pypi.org/project/neural-signal-analysis/0.2.8/
15:02 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> please find problems with it
15:11 < fenn> good job! could you explain why one would want to use e.g. "Multifractal Detrended Fluctuation Analysis"
15:14 < Ashstar> what is this?
15:14 < Ashstar> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6uNISoNWV4
15:14 < fenn> .t
15:14 < EmmyNoether> Drone Captures INCREDIBLE UFO Racing At 10x The Speed Of Sound | Contact - YouTube
15:16 < fenn> @soul_syrup also i'm not understanding why it's v0.2.8 if it's new?
15:19 < fenn> @soul_syrup my first instinct is to look for an online source code repository browser, but i don't see any such thing. at least it's not obvious that this is or is not the source code https://github.com/Metaverse-Crowdsource/EEG-Chaos-Kuramoto-Neural-Net
15:29 < fenn> Ashstar: it's a TV show
15:37 < Ashstar> fenn, this was caught by someone from a drone for B. roll background for some documentary
15:38 < fenn> yes i saw it the last four times you posted it
15:38 < fenn> but this time with more television
15:38 < Ashstar> they had no idea what they had shot, until afterwards
15:38 < Ashstar> yes
15:39 < Ashstar> analysis
15:39 < Ashstar> too
15:41 < Ashstar> sorry, it is still the most interesting snippet of something that qualifies as a UAP
15:51 < L29Ah> can UFO help with transhumanism?
15:51 < fenn> not until we figure out what it is
15:54 < nsh> potentially even without identification and direct understanding of the technology by examination and reverse engineering it might spur on attempts to develop non-inertial technologies. if for example there are still some properties of the motion that suggest some partial relaxation of what's considered inertially constrained (rather than being completely 'magically' inconstrained) then it might suggest some directions
15:55 < nsh> but there hasn't been enough high quality footage to infer much yet afaict
15:55 < nsh> perhaps we'll get more light thrown on things in this new era and candour
15:55 < nsh> *of
15:55 < nsh> though it's been somewhat disappointing substantially so far
15:56 < nsh> there might be a lot of internal delays as a result of the classification system's... inertia.. lol
15:56 < nsh> might be just as effective to simply use imagination though :)
15:57  * L29Ah imagines UFOs are mass psychosis specific to americans
15:59 < nsh> there's certainly a non-trivial psychological aspect
16:00 < nsh> but that's not sui generis. in all things we see only what we are capable and willing to imagine
16:00 < nsh> reality is a dream constrained equally be belief and phenomena
16:00 < nsh> *by
16:04 < nsh> psychosis is a clinical diagnosis where non-veridical beliefs result in a pathological inability to function according to the norms by which mental well health is construed
16:04 < nsh> there's arguably very little of that compared to the frequency of reported sighting or mere belief
16:05 < nsh> one might say it's a relatively localised interest, which might be understandable in those who live in a country whose position on the world stage is partially and recently a function of its having a strong air force
16:05 < nsh> this was not a distinction that existed for most of history
16:06 < nsh> when armoured mounted warriors rose to high political relevance there was a glut of myths about strange knights
16:07 < nsh> perhaps this is analogous
16:07 < fenn> https://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/ufo_worldper10m1.png
16:08 < nsh> would be interesting to know the methodology for that
16:09 < nsh> i find it very hard to imagine how you'd consistent estimate that over all those countries without extensive field work
16:09 < nsh> *consistently
16:09 < nsh> but the distribution doesn't surprise me either
16:10 < nsh> at the top you have the axis of the cold war geographically
16:10 < fenn> UFOs are interested in NATO apparently
16:10 < nsh> and at the bottom you have a couple of eejits who are still part of the anglosphere security alliance for dubious reasons
16:11 < nsh> the aliens also take an interest in preventing nuclear war, according to some reports :)
16:12 < fenn> why .au then
16:13 < hprmbridge> Eli> there were some recent ufo sightings in peru and apparently the aliens happen to speak spanish ...
16:14 < L29Ah> .me joined NATO but didn't get aliens
16:15 < nsh> five eyes
16:15 < nsh> the international espionage old boys network
16:15 < juri_> fenn: 5 axis slicing is hard. i'm working the problem.. but my team is small.
16:15 < L29Ah> perhaps related to the fact that the only airbase also works as a civilian airport
16:15 < juri_> L29ah is a pain in our ass, too. :)
16:17 < fenn> nice font https://www.weirddatascience.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ufo-sightings.png
16:22 < Ashstar> 5 eyes
16:31 < Ashstar> we simply do not know what we do not know
16:32 < Ashstar> "“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,/Than are dreamt of in your philosophy”, Horatio"
16:34 < Ashstar> it sure seems from the pushback that Senate n congress is getting against the current proposed bill for a presidential styled full enquiry, that there is something there
16:34 < Ashstar> or to quote Shakespeare, again- "methinks the lady doth protest too much"
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16:45 < Ashstar> if there is nothing to hide, then why was the bill oposed by the representatives who's district is Patterson AFB, and Huntsville Ala
16:46 < docl> https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/01/aerographite-released-near-the-sun-accelerate-to-over-2-of-lightspeed.html
16:46 < Ashstar> Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabam
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17:12 < fenn> docl: sounds like a bad idea orders of magnitude worse than project westford
17:15 < fenn> also the dynamic soaring concept was pretty sketchy when i looked into it
17:16 < fenn> doing it artificially would require absurd levels of precision from what's essentially blowing on microscopic dandelion seeds
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18:01 < docl> hmm. well at least now I know where I encountered the idea of aerographite micropellets. updating my mental provenance tracking metadata system w/ note that it's a little sketch (he refs the heller paper which does not say anything about small particles)
18:02 < fenn> you have a mental provenance tracking metadata system?
18:02 < docl> I'm not sure how central that would be to a plan to collide them with saturn's rings or something for antimatter production anyway
18:02 < docl> apparently. I can usually remember where I heard a thing
18:03 < fenn> is this one of those things like inner monologues where you learn far too late in life that other people do this weird thing all the time
18:03 < docl> in this case it got a little confused because there were a lot of similar blog posts I ended up reading on my aerographene deep dive
18:04 < docl> we've discussed this before actually... apparently it's something I have that you don't. but of course mine is a bit fallable
18:04 < fenn> oh dear
18:05 < docl> I bet there are academics who have a really good one and wonder why others get confused about sources
18:05 < fenn> better pickle my brain before i forget anything else
18:06 < docl> lol well at least there are logs you can grep
18:07 < docl> also maybe you have more room in your brain for generalized knowledge? who knows
18:07 < fenn> i stopped keeping web browsing history a long time ago after it started bogging everything down with stupid autocomplete stuff
18:08 < docl> yeah I make heavy use of private browsing sessions to avoid that happening
18:08 < fenn> i think i am more gullible in general
18:08 < fenn> scott alexander has a post about this
18:08 < docl> see, you remember where you hear some things
18:12 < fenn> only because i didn't actually read the article
18:13 < docl> https://corbettreport.substack.com/p/the-gell-mann-amnesia-effect
18:14 < docl> wait, that's not astral codex 10 how did I get to a full search of all substacks
18:20 < docl> do you have a mind's eye? experience seeing literal images mentally?
18:22 < docl> https://psyche.co/ideas/i-have-no-minds-eye-let-me-try-to-describe-it-for-you
18:26 < docl> I should probably clarify that I'm just remembering the source as part of remembering the fact, like there's a feeling / event / personality associated that usually doesn't need much effort to bring to mind. I'm not like constructing a json structure and filling it in or something (I was phrasing it like that as a joke). I actually find academic sourcing pretty counterintuitive
18:29 < fenn> i have very vivid mental imagery and simulations
18:29 < fenn> not nikola tesla level tho
18:32 < docl> nice! mine is reduced (usually brief flashes at a time) when I'm awake, but gets fairly vivid when falling asleep/waking up. 
18:34 < fenn> it's probably related to poor episodic memory in general
18:36 < fenn> 'The term "episodic memory" was coined by Endel Tulving in 1972, referring to the distinction between knowing and remembering: knowing is factual recollection (semantic) whereas remembering is a feeling that is located in the past (episodic)'
18:36 < fenn> when i was a kid i would often just "know" things
18:43 < docl> that's not something I'm conscious of doing much at all. I get possibilities popping into my mind fairly often, but then I'm reflexively doing a search for memories to confirm them with, so it ends up being fairly contextual. also sometimes takes me a while to remember I know something when someone brings it up (I'm trying to recall some reason I should know it). I suspect the just-knowing does occur, 
18:43 < docl> just not very consciously
18:44 < docl> I think me as a kid was similar. like, I'd know a thing *because* another thing more vs than just knowing it
18:46 < docl> granted, some of the becauses were pretty wacky (and I didn't experience them as wacky)
18:47 < fenn> last week i spent about 2 hours digging through my music collection to find a specific sound i had stuck in my head... finally found it (speedway by the prodigy 3m25s, but my version was better imho)
18:48 < fenn> eventually i just decided to go through everything alphabetically
18:50 < fenn> the sound could have been sourced from any number of things, tv shows or youtube or video games or other peoples' music, but i can't search those in any systematic way
18:52 < fenn> the beep beep noise my laptop makes when unplugged reminds me of another song, and i was able to find that on the first try
19:00 < fenn> so clearly i'm able to recall specific metadata if it's part of a knowledge blob "why is this sound pattern salient" but if i come across information in the course of everyday events it won't get any special treatment and the episodic part goes away much faster than the knowledge itself
19:04 < fenn> today i saw footage of explosive bolts on the space shuttle SRB hold downs in a "real engineering" video. i probably would forget where i saw that in a few days
19:04 < fenn> or a thousand other things like that every day
19:05 < fenn> it's just inconceivable that people could actually remember where they learned every little thing
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19:27 < docl> subjectively, it's like caring (in the moment, as you're learning) where you're learning from and how it feels to learn from the given source
19:27 < docl> .m https://twitter.com/eshear/status/1732849060321669188
19:27 < AugustaAva> ​twitter: <eshear> You can beat material into your memory with raw repetition and discipline of course. But it takes so many more reps and so much more energy than the expedient trick of giving a shit about the material instead.
19:30 < docl> like if you're talking to someone you trust vs someone you distrust, deep seeming person vs flaky seeming person, aesthetically pleasing website vs garbage website... maybe it's like my brain has hypersensitivity towards the difference in sources? or like I'm more immersed in the narrative-forming process somehow?
19:32 < docl> probably some complex gibberish of neuro-organic factors involved in creating that subjective experience though
19:38 < fenn> if we lived in a dunbar number tribe then maybe i could develop a real sense of "deep seeming person vs flaky seeming person" but the world is just too large to be able to do that reliably
19:39 < fenn> somehow it seems more principled to judge the arguments rather than who's saying them
19:40 < fenn> don't judge a book by its cover and all that
19:43 < fenn> usually they're just repeating someone else's arguments anyway
19:44 < docl> yeah but the experience of work going into not judging people by surface impressions in order to assess their arguments can itself be a memorable thing, it's more a matter of having that sense and pushing through to listen objectively rather than going out of your way to form an prejudicial attitude like that
19:50 < docl> the experience of not actually having to push aside a surface impression / history of past interactions to evaluate the argument objectively seems interesting/novel to me. maybe I'd be more comfortable in anonymous forums e.g.
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 17 00:00:01 2023