--- Log opened Sun Dec 24 00:00:08 2023
01:15 < nsh> Ashstar, ty
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03:03 < L29Ah> Ashstar: [citation needed]
03:04 < L29Ah> pretty sure it's lux-at-pupils that matter, and you'll outright destroy your eyes at 50kLm focused on them
03:07 < L29Ah> also i've lived in a windowless basement without getting out for a ~week with the basement-wide light source at 6klm and didn't have much problems with circadian drift
03:08 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Was there a reason for living in a basement for a week? Or just self experimentation?
03:10 < L29Ah> i lived in a basement for over a year because why not, it has advantages over above-the-ground housing like thermal stability and the lack of outside light to mess with my sleep schedule; not getting out for a week is because i had all i need inside for that time period and had no reason to get out
03:10 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Huh, what you do about exercise?
03:11 < L29Ah> i used to have 2*30kg dumbbells and a stationary bicycle
03:11 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Also sounds like I should buy some full spectrum lights for next winter when sunsets at 4PM
03:13 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah that'd work, wouldn't work for me I don't think cause I get ancy if I can't go on walks for long periods of time
03:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> COVID showed me that, rowing machine might help with my physical fitness needs but seeing trees and hills seems to be necessary
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07:29 < muurkha> 50 kilolux doesn't seem outrageous, that's half of direct sunlight, but 50 kilolumens focused on a 4mm-diameter pupil would be 4 gigalux
07:30 < muurkha> so 40000 suns?  40 megawatts per square meter, if the spectrum were the same as sunlight
07:32 < muurkha> that would be an equilibrium chance of 4900°, so 50 kilolumens focused on a pupil-sized area could outright destroy not just your eyes but literally any solid matter
07:32 < muurkha> docl: I'm surprised to learn that it's glassy carbon!
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07:33 < muurkha> docl: there are a lot of ways to make ZnO; the easiest way, the one people often do by accident and get sick from, is just to boil zinc into air
07:34 < muurkha> ZnO has a high boiling point, but Zn metal doesn't, and the metal vapor rapidly oxidizes
07:36 < muurkha> if it is lux at pupils that matters (and there's some suggestive evidence that lux at skin might matter) obviously you can get by with a lot less than kilolumens to reach 100 kilolux, which is obviously enough
07:42 < muurkha> docl: also though zinc carbonate decomposes at 140°, zinc nitrate decomposes at 125°, and "successive ion layer adsorption and reaction" ("SILAR") can produce ZnO thin films from ammonium zincate
07:43 < muurkha> apparently you can get ammonium zincate from zinc sulfate and enough ammonia: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0254058405006401
08:01 < muurkha> also, probably less practically, zinc acetate decomposes at 237°, zinc formate at 260–350°, zinc oxalate at 350–370°
08:04 < docl> yeah, the lower boiling point is why they use hydrogen etching in the production process for aerographite
08:05 < docl> turn the zinc into metal again, then boil it out
08:12 < docl> oh, apparently there's a graphene aerogel with similar properties that can be 3d printed
08:13 < docl> process involves ln2, freeze drying, thermal reduction after printing
08:13 < docl> https://studentsxstudents.com/meet-aerographene-the-material-lighter-than-air-and-stronger-than-steel-2d0374a43a16
08:24 < muurkha> heh, "stronger than steel" in what sense?
08:25 < muurkha> supposedly zinc hydroxide decomposes at 125° but of course it's not water-soluble
08:25 < docl> lol I assume they just mean tensile strength
08:26 < muurkha> seems implausible
08:26 < muurkha> strength-to-weight ratio maybe
08:27 < muurkha> or proof resilience, as with spider silk
08:33 < docl> lots of things with higher tensile strength than steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength
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10:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://nat.org/
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11:02 < Ashstar> muurkha, it is about half the strength of normal sunlight
11:02 < Ashstar>  50 kilolux 
11:03 < Ashstar> for 2 hours, not in the pupils, of course directly
11:03 < Ashstar> but ambient light
11:04 < Ashstar> that seems to be enough to synchronize circadiam rythm, alieviate SAD
11:04 < Ashstar> alleviate
11:05 < Ashstar> the SCN takes info off the optic track, the SCN is the main regulatory structure in our brain 
11:06 < Ashstar> that establishes circadian periodicity
11:11 < L29Ah> either a much lower illuminance level is acceptable or tundra dwellers has some other method of synchronization, since 50klux is a rare occasion outside bright summer days
11:12 < L29Ah> where's the citation?
11:14 < L29Ah> saint petersburg is not even tundra, yet it has 8 hours of sunshine in decembers, on average, yet it functions well, being a 5Mppl city
11:17 < L29Ah> > In 2003, the sunshine duration was finally defined as the period during which direct solar irradiance exceeds a threshold value of 120 W/m2.[1]
11:17 < L29Ah> so likely less than 8h a month of 50klx
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11:33 < Ashstar> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6751071/
11:34 < Ashstar> L29Ah
11:34 < Ashstar> ^^             ^^
11:36 < Ashstar> the prevalence of SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder) in northern latitudes with low light is well chronicled
11:36 < Ashstar> with it's associated rates of depression, alcoholism, suicides
11:39 < Ashstar> we also convert ergosterol in ur skin to vit. D we lost melanin and it's UV blocking power
11:40 < Ashstar> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224420306014#:~:text=Ergosterol%20can%20be%20converted%20to,to%20extend%20the%20shelf%20life.
11:42 < Ashstar> but even 30 minutes, of 25,000 lx helps
11:43 < Ashstar> apparently, though some thing more like 2 hours
11:43 < Ashstar> think
11:57 < Ashstar> most of my research involved a simple, well mapped organism, Neurospora crassa. 
11:57 < Ashstar> bread mold
11:57 < Ashstar> which throws up spores every 21.7 hrs
11:57 < Ashstar> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mark-Elvin-2/publication/7520710_Synchronizing_the_Neurospora_crassa_circadian_clock_with_the_rhythmic_environment/links/00b4952a851a34dc26000000/Synchronizing-the-Neurospora-crassa-circadian-clock-with-the-rhythmic-environment.pdf
11:59 < Ashstar> this organism provided us with a way to research the genetics of the clock, as well as what regulatory cellular mechanisms are involved
12:12 < Ashstar> So, L29Ah, all you living in northern lattitudes, I say, get your good full spectra sun lamps, sunbathe for a hour or two
12:13 < Ashstar> if anyone does go to deep space, do it regularly
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14:18 < fenn> food is a zeitgeber, also probably seeing human faces
15:36 < nsh> yeah you get eaten your zeit is aus
15:36 < nsh> *ist
15:37 < nsh> or abgelaufen perhaps
15:38 < nsh> perhaps it's "time is up" rather than 'out'
15:40 < nsh> or vorbei/over
17:21 < fenn> there's a little invisible timer hanging over your head, and food extends the number. also seeing human faces maybe
17:21 < fenn> when the time runs out, your zeit is abgelaufen
17:22 < fenn> eat well, my pretties
17:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://futureaesthetics.foundation/possibiliamag
17:47 < fenn> "Possibilia is a literary magazine that publishes optimistic, realistic, scientific fiction."
17:50 < fenn> the 3d rendered animation of a printed magazine flipping its own pages, tells the whole story
17:53 < fenn> why does potentially contributing art to a fun and interesting nonprofit with no money and no skilled collaborators, feel like applying for a job?
17:53 < fenn> this should be the orion's arm wiki instead
17:54 < fenn> but with better graphics
18:46 < hprmbridge> fodagut> Are there any economic geologists here?
18:49 < hprmbridge> nmz787>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1188674763451793429/PXL_20231225_011553966.MP.jpg?ex=659b62a4&is=6588eda4&hm=83cb11bc723c93d40e5cb142169666d929fea155d59ced6cb467243d96627845&
19:01 < Ashstar> fenn, it's called "culture" which is the best of our arts, conveying what is sometime indescribable, subtle,
19:01 < Ashstar> part of our zeitgeist
19:02 < Ashstar> which lives long after we have passed
19:33 < hprmbridge> fodagut> haha "economic georgists" ducking autocorrect...
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20:05 < docl> yeah I support georgism and a few others at the last meetup mentioned it. politics/economics is a bit off topic here though
20:07 < docl> am thinking about antimatter containment strategies. antiprotons don't annihilate with electrons, so I'm wondering if a cold electron cloud could serve as an insulator
20:08 < Ashstar> how would that work
20:08 < Ashstar> the method of confinement is electromagnetic
20:08 < Ashstar> high Gauss fields
20:09 < docl> well, georgism is potentially on topic if you contextualize it as pro growth maybe, like bringing about the singularity sooner by enhancing agglomeration effects. also I think solar system wide georgism is probably underexplored enough to count if you can bring some rigor
20:14 < docl> magnetic isn't necessarily the only option. I'm picturing antiprotons bouncing off the electron cloud (like charge repulsion) and back to the center. not sure it helps much if we can't build them into bigger nuclei though
20:28 < fenn> it's the autocorrect conspiracy
20:30 < fenn> i'm too gullible to know whether i'm "a georgist" or not. basically, every economic theory sounds pretty good when it's explained.
20:30 < hprmbridge> kanzure> historically I kicked out the everyone because so much of it seems dumb
20:30 < Ashstar> wtf is a "georgist"?
20:30 < fenn> go look it up
20:31 < hprmbridge> kanzure> er I mean economists
20:31 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism
20:32 < Ashstar> sure sounds like a new age sort of communism
20:33 < Ashstar> a failed concept
20:33 < fenn> you couldn't possibly have understood the concept so quickly
20:33 < Ashstar> sure Orwell, would say something about it, if he was alive
20:34 < Ashstar> I read fast
20:34 < Ashstar> just did
20:35 < Ashstar> I grew up around communes
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20:47 < Ashstar> my grandparents were communists
20:47 < docl> there's a land owning community that functions a bit like a georgist economy in the US, survives to this day. and some states have partial LVT (that is, the land value and improvements are taxed separately with the land value being a higher rate). I hear good things about their growth. more parking garages, less street level parking e.g.
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20:47 < Ashstar> one of them fought in spai
20:47 < Ashstar> Spain
20:48 < Ashstar> my father had trouble, he wrote for Hollywood
20:48 < Ashstar> that is one reason I grew up in Mexico
20:49 < Ashstar> we have trouble sharing resources, it seems ideal, but when you take humane nature, or just nature, itself
20:50 < Ashstar> you find it always boils down to a fight for resources
20:50 < Ashstar> except fpor a Eusocial species
20:51 < Ashstar> like ants, bees
20:52 < Ashstar> it's ideal, sounds great but subject to abuse
20:52 < Ashstar> as seen from Cuba, Russia
20:53 < Ashstar> we have a hard time, sharing, equally
20:56 < fenn> let's not re-flog this horse ok
20:57 < fenn> i'd love to just point at a standard argument map and avoid actually going through the same old arguments that have been done a million or a hundred million times already
20:57 < fenn> unfortunately the humans don't seem to understand or value argument maps, so there is no standard map to point at
21:00 < fenn> anyway georgism is not communism
21:00 < Ashstar> hm
21:00 < Ashstar> it's just reworded
21:01 < Ashstar> or modified
21:01 < Ashstar> but whatever
21:01 < Ashstar> we live it a dog eat dog world
21:01 < Ashstar> in
21:02 < Ashstar> there is always a need to compete
21:02 < Ashstar> to have more
21:02 < Ashstar> it is part of our biosocial makeup
21:03 < Ashstar> I believe
21:03 < Ashstar> that's why we war
21:05 < Ashstar> there are few egalitarian societies
21:11 < muurkha> georgism is not reworded or modified communis
21:11 < muurkha> m
21:11 < muurkha> all societies are egalitarian to some degree or other
21:12 < muurkha> there are a lot of standard argument maps; the issue is that each faction has their own preferred version
21:13 < hprmbridge> Eli> Marx hated georgism. It rewards meritocracy while reducing the number of rentiers. The main issue is determine the tax assessment. But even a small LVT would have a major impact on society, likely in a positive direction.
21:13 < muurkha> georgism predates the new age by about 70 years
21:14 < Ashstar> well, give me a succesful example of one?
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21:14 < Ashstar> time proven
21:15 < Ashstar> or is just a cancept
21:15 < Ashstar> it
21:15 < Ashstar> concept
21:16 < muurkha> Ashstar: yes, 50 kilolux is half the strength of direct sunlight. but you said 50 kilolumens, which is nonsense.  hopefully you understand that 50 kilolux can be 1 lumen, 50 kilolumens, or a billion lumens
21:16 < Ashstar> there hve been so many proposed societies, from Plato's Republic on
21:16 < hprmbridge> Eli> Probably more of a thought experiment. Because assessment is difficult. And politicians at the federal level are basically all rentiers at this point so they would have to vote against their own interests.
21:16 < Ashstar> muurkha
21:17 < muurkha> docl: yes, lots of things with higher tensile strength than steel, but none of them are 99.9% empty space at the superatomic level
21:17 < Ashstar> I studied this, but it has been decades since I taught this
21:17 < Ashstar> at U
21:18 < Ashstar> so, ty, I had my lux's lumens off
21:18 < Ashstar> memory fades
21:18 < hprmbridge> Eli> Plato didn’t know jack about supply and demand curves
21:19 < muurkha> L29Ah: I think St. Petersburg has alcoholism and suicide rates several times higher than average, and plausibly the sunlight is one reason
21:19 < Ashstar> I know is is about half sunlight needed to synchronize circadian
21:20 < Ashstar> probably, muurkha
21:20 < Ashstar> SAD
21:20 < muurkha> docl: a cold electron cloud will explode in a Coulomb explosion
21:21 < Ashstar> what do you mean by "cold"?
21:22 < muurkha> presumably docl meant millikelvins or microkelvins
21:22 < Ashstar> are you refering to  cold populations are defined by total energy less than approximately 100 eV, i.e. in the energy range which is strongly affected by spacecraft charging and that often dominates the total plasma density
21:22 < docl> I'm not sure they need to be cold but if they bounce around too much the antiprotons will gain that momentum
21:23 < muurkha> 100 eV is a pretty high temperature the way we normally measure
21:23 < Ashstar> yes
21:24 < Ashstar> it is
21:25 < Ashstar> so, how would that apply to antimatter confinement?
21:28 < docl> insulating layer so the antiprotons/antinucleu don't contact the container
21:29 < fenn> "Due to their ability to trap charged particles purely with electromagnetic forces, Penning traps are used in science fiction as a method to store large quantities of antimatter. Doing so in reality would require a vacuum of significantly higher quality than currently achievable."
21:29 < fenn> so it sounds like the vacuum is the technical problem
21:29 < Ashstar> a positron will anihlate an electron
21:30 < docl> yeah but we don't need to store positrons
21:30 < Ashstar> it hs to b efield confined
21:30 < Ashstar> like magnetic
21:31 < docl> well, you can make molecules or denser plasmas if you use positrons. it's not useless to have them. but maybe just a pressurized antiproton cloud is enough?
21:31 < fenn> that sounds pretty low mass
21:31 < fenn> what's the goal again?
21:32 < Ashstar> antimatter
21:32 < fenn> but what for
21:32 < Ashstar> confinement
21:32  * fenn sighs
21:32 < fenn> i give up, good night
21:32 < Ashstar> lol
21:32 < Ashstar> happy saturnalia
21:32 < docl> I want to ship antimatter from space to earth so we can power antimatter catalyzed fission-fusion
21:33 < fenn> why not just make it here
21:33 < docl> because it is too energy-wasteful even with AMCF
21:33 < docl> robert forward at his most optimistic says 10000:1 at best
21:34 < docl> but if you can do 100x100 km solar arrays, you can do like a gram a day
21:37 < fenn> i asked chatGPT what is the minimum velocity needed to create antimatter. with a naive KE = 1/2 mv^2 calculation you will never get enough energy before hitting the speed of light; most of the energy is relativistic
21:38 < fenn> it makes sense because you're creating new particles from energy, so they need to have enough excess energy to create the particle. that means a mass energy equivalence or e = mc^2
21:38 < docl> I have my own idea, drop aerographite off close to the sun and use the high velocity sails, vaporize to ions, then concentrate those into a collider. plasma should work in a venturi tube or magnetic equivalent I'm thinking
21:39 < fenn> plasma does not follow gas dynamics like "venturi tube" and especially not solar wind ions in a free molecular flow regime
21:40 < docl> general fusion seems to think so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Fusion#/media/File:General_Fusion_Reactor.svg
21:40 < fenn> i don't understand the scheme but 6400 km/s is not a high enough collision velocity to create antimatter
21:40 < docl> it's 10x that according to the paper I read
21:44 < docl> hmm, no I'm wrong. 6900 km/s is their figure
21:44 < docl> 2% of c though
21:44 < fenn> 100x less energy though
21:44 < fenn> really i think what's important is the energy per particle
21:45 < fenn> dropping an anvil won't make antimatter
21:46 < docl> am picturing the particles in my head, they have a sideways momentum because they have heat. deflect at a slight angle along a long tunnel and it winds up pushing them faster.
21:47 < fenn> oh that's why you brought up the downwind faster than the wind thing
21:47 < docl> this is a lot of particles clustered very closely together in solar wind terms
21:48 < fenn> but it might as well be an anvil if it's not a significant fraction of c
21:53 < docl> well suppose you are narrowing the beam to 1/100th its original cross section and it's a high pressure 1% c to begin with. should move to a significant fraction of the kinetic energy being relativistic mass since it can't go to 100x as fast
21:58 < fenn> i'm working on a lower bound estimate
21:59 < fenn> a proton and an antiproton are each 938 MeV so to produce a pair requires a photon with 1876 MeV, which can be produced via bremsstrahlung
22:00 < fenn> KE = γmc² - mc²
22:00 < fenn> γ = 1 / sqrt(1 - (v/c)²)
22:00 < fenn> here's where wolfram alpha actually working would be nice
22:01 < fenn> instead i will throw some random numbers in until it works
22:02 < Ashstar> hey, toss a few over hear
22:02 < Ashstar> I need a few randoms
22:03 < Ashstar> here
22:03 < fenn> export v=4000km/s ; export m=12amu ; units "(1 / sqrt(1 - ($v/c)^2))*$m*c^2 - $m*c^2" MeV
22:04 < fenn> uh whoops we're shooting for 1876 MeV not 1 MeV
22:04 < docl> time to memorize the spelling of bremsstrahlung in case I need to sound smart
22:05 < fenn> 155,000 km/s
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22:06 < fenn> for carbon
22:06 < docl> different for bigger atoms? we could mix small amounts of uranium in
22:08 < fenn> 40,000 km/s for uranium
22:08 < fenn> anything heavier than uranium is probably not worth it
22:12 < fenn> you could make positrons with the aerographite method, assuming they actually do get accelerated to 6900 km/s
22:12 < docl> ah, figures. so it depends on the venturi like effect of narrowing the cross section. (I also had in mind striking the beam against fission-fusion fuels but not sure the released energy is enough to make much difference in this context)
22:15 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_amplifier
22:19 < docl> I still feel bullish the cross section being narrowed works. we don't need a particular pressure to make antimatter, just velocity. problem tends to be that high pressure = high heat = bremsstrahlung = fast energy loss. but the stream is already moving at 1%c so there's not a lot of time for it to cool
22:21 < fenn> winterberg wrote about fission-fusion hybrids on his site (which is impossible to find, conveniently enough for the anti-pure-fusion establishment)
22:22 < fenn> it's not like he's the only one to think about it either: https://www.ralphmoir.com/fusion-fission/
22:22 < docl> http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/213.web.stuff/Scott%20Kircher/fissionfusion.html was my inspiration, but it's really more for once you have the antimatter, what to do with it. you can get 12000x out what you put in, it'll be distributed over way more atoms
22:23 < fenn> "in a Super Marx generator a large number of ordinary Marxgenerators charge up a much larger second stage ultra-high voltage Marx generator, from whichfor the ignition of a pure deuterium micro-explosion an intense GeV ion beam can be extracted."
22:24 < docl> GeV sounds promising
22:24 < fenn> yes but consider the nuclear weapon security establishment's view of this sort of thing
22:25 < fenn> throw some capacitors and lithium in a box and you have a fusion bomb
22:26 < fenn> i don't know where you got the idea that heat is important for bremsstrahlung; it's purely about velocity
22:27 < docl> heat is kinetic energy of particles though
22:27 < docl> temperature might be the more precise term
22:28 < fenn> well usually "heat" in a particle beam is the transverse velocity average (?)
22:28 < fenn> sorry i was confused, nevermind
22:32 < fenn> for squeezing a beam of ideal gas particles, pressure1*volume1 = pressure2*volume2 = nRT
22:33 < fenn> bah 'units' doesn't define kelvin, it's axiomatic
22:34 < fenn> naively, the velocity vector could go one of three directions, two in the plane perpendicular to the axis of the beam, and one along the axis of the beam
22:35 < fenn> hm
22:35 < fenn> it could also go backwards along the axis of the beam
22:37 < docl> true, that's probably why you need high pressure to create high speed streams in e.g a waterjet cutter beam
22:37 < fenn> i should have said six directions to start with
22:45 < docl> yeah, same as the sides of a cube. but I think pressure from one side of the stream makes it possible to reflect backwards momentum with higher rates, so it ends up forward on net. some weird stuff can happen when pressure alters speed of sound and so on in gases
22:47 < fenn> presumably when your charged aerographene pellets hit this magnetic field at high velocity they get heated and fully ionized
22:47 < docl> yes, maybe hit them with a laser or collide them with dust ahead of time even
22:47 < fenn> remember ionization energy is only 12MJ/kg or so
22:47 < fenn> so you're compressing a plasma, not a gas
22:48 < docl> so it is dominated by magnetic effects more, not sure speed of sound exists per se
22:48 < fenn> right
22:51 < fenn> 90MJ/kg for carbon
22:51 < fenn> anyway it's a lot less than the kinetic energy
22:53 < fenn> first ionization, not fully ionized
23:00 < docl> well we're looking at 24 TJ of kinetic energy for a kilogram. fully ionized is like 40 GJ, still basically a rounding error to that
23:03 < docl> 4 GJ I mean
23:03 < fenn> adding up all the ionization energies, i get 8.3GJ/kg for carbon
23:04 < docl> oh, I was just looking at 6th. you're right
23:08 < docl> still, we're compating a kiloton of TNT to under a ton of coal here
23:09 -!- aaabbb [sitku@user/aaabbb] has left #hplusroadmap [K-lined]
--- Log closed Mon Dec 25 00:00:09 2023