--- Log opened Sun Dec 31 00:00:15 2023
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02:44 < hprmbridge> fodagut> fenn I think what wasn’t known was the degree to which interstitium fluids are pumped around the body wasn’t known prior
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06:04 < L29Ah> does pseudoephedrine has a CNS effect similar to atomoxetine?
06:15 < hprmbridge> kanzure> wonder if we could make a cellular aging clock instead of trying to find a naturally occurring one
06:19 < L29Ah> depends on what you call an aging clock
06:20 < L29Ah> there are multiple intracellular markers of aging identified already
06:54 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> replace the telomere on one chromosome with a set-length chunk of ablative DNA. When it's worn down after a certain number of cell divisions, it inactivates/deletes some suppressor gene circuit at the end. This activates expression of a gene that makes some secreted Factor X. Make the Factor X promoter also specific to stem cells so it doesn't trigger in some Hayflick-esque way in regular cells.
06:54 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> All cells have a receptor for that circulating Factor X that triggers their own expression of more Factor X and, when the cell receives enough Factor X signalling, apoptosis. I guess it's not heritable, or at least your kids would only live as long as is left on your own clock. Also thymus promiscuous gene expression, but those are both fixable
06:55 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> Logan's Run 2: The Runnening
06:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> how would you limit it to stem cells only?
07:11 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> plenty of stem-only genes (and their accompanying promoters) out there. Doesn't need to be all stem cells, just pick one type to make calibrating the timer easier
07:11 < hprmbridge> kanzure> apoptosis is a nice trick but I was only proposing a timer
07:12 < hprmbridge> yashgaroth> that depends on how you define aging then, just chronological age?
07:15 < L29Ah> https://www.printables.com/model/336719-high-precision-compliant-xy-positioning-device for you MEMS lovers
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07:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> did someone say ksrm had a working replicator and its parts defined in the book?
07:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I don't remember seeing a practical replicator
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08:48 < nsh> .m https://twitter.com/burny_tech/status/1741300258406031421
08:48 < AugustaAva> ​twitter: <burny_tech> Cancer is solved? ␤  ␤ Molecular jackhammers eradicate cancer cells by vibronic-driven action https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCpXS65WQAEU08K.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCpXWmnXAAAiLUo.png
08:48 < nsh> (betteridge's law, but still)
08:50 < nsh> .t https://www.nature.com/articles/s41557-023-01383-y
08:50 < EmmyNoether> Molecular jackhammers eradicate cancer cells by vibronic-driven action | Nature Chemistry
09:12 < hprmbridge> jay_dugger> Matches my recollection.
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09:35 < Guest66> hello
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09:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hello guest66
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10:32 < docl> muurkha: I'm looking into making a tube furnace. Apparently a waterglass+lime mixture works well up to 2200 degrees C which is more than I am likely to need for an aerographite process
10:33 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqOlrGPgng8 // Building a 1200°C Tube Furnace
10:36 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://hackaday.com/2018/07/18/diy-tube-oven-brings-the-heat-to-homebrew-semiconductor-fab/
10:36 < docl> not quite seeing the point of a fused silica tube in this context. still, wrapping nichrome around a tube seems simple enough
10:37 < docl> lime+sodium silicate seems to handle higher temps than most kinds of firebrick
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Links to:
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://electronicmercenary.wordpress.com/2018/05/27/this-boring-company-i/
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787>
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://electronicmercenary.wordpress.com/2018/07/15/this-boring-company-ii/
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787>
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/1075984603472832/Semiconductors%20@%20Home%20-%20Compendium%20V.005.pdf
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787>
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/1075984603472832/Semiconductors%20@%20Home%20-%20Cookbook!%20V.007.pdf
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787>
10:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> And other 3D model files and parts lists here https://hackaday.io/project/107598-semiconductors-home
10:38 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Docl fused silica is a barrier for gas, it's where you put your reaction
10:38 < hprmbridge> nmz787> It's high temp resistant, and can handle lower pressure than atmosphere (i.e. reaction process gasses)
10:39 < hprmbridge> nmz787> It's also pure, so doesn't offer diffusible metal contaminants like something like borosilicate might
10:40 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Or soda lime glass ( though I don't think that could take the temperature you're looking for)
10:40 < docl> ah, for low pressure that makes sense
10:40 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Ben Krasnow did a video where his glass was the source of metal contaminants for some high temp reaction
10:41 < docl> did you catch the video of the guy with homemade refractory glue who was hitting it with a H-O torch?
10:42 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyjcRNJBk-s
10:42 < docl> I could see the waterglass component evaporating out or something, hmm.
10:42 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I watched it all
10:43 < hprmbridge> nmz787> He mentioned curing with co2 and then something about firing it melted it again, which i was confused with
10:43 < docl> I think he was talking about something separate he was working on with that
10:43 < docl> waterglass based molds
10:43 < hprmbridge> nmz787> But he also said curing with air at some points, so maybe he was distinguishing co2 from air
10:50 < docl> fused silica tubing is slightly expensive :/
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10:54 < docl> this thread was interesting https://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=158462
10:56 < docl> mentions that pool filter sand is a good way to source silica sand e.g.
11:03 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Yeah quartz isn't cheap. Luckily when i bought my tube furnace from the local university auction it came with two extra tubes that were still sealed from the original supplier (and I'm presuming they're perfectly intact)
11:10 < Lando-HoloNet> Hats for bats.
11:10 < Lando-HoloNet> Keep bats warm.
12:34 < docl> well kitty litter and sand are relatively cheap. I wonder if I can manage to glaze the inside of a tube based on the lime/sodium silicate recipe
12:34 < docl> with silica, I mean
12:35 < Lando-HoloNet> https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/12/getting-to-the-bottom-of-how-red-flour-beetles-absorb-water-through-their-butts/
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12:57 < docl> seems like he's making a lime aggregate rather than soda lime glass per se. so mostly CaO
12:58 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Yeah i think so
12:58 < hprmbridge> nmz787> """Calcium oxide
12:58 < hprmbridge> nmz787>  has a melting point
12:58 < hprmbridge> nmz787>  of 2,572 °C (4,662 °F) """
12:58 < hprmbridge> nmz787> According to Google AI suggestion
12:59 < muurkha> can you really melt it?
13:00 < muurkha> docl: a waterglass+lime mixture is just soda-lime glass so I don't think it will reach even 1000 degrees
13:01 < muurkha> maybe it's possible to add so much lime that it does but I will be very surprised
13:02 < docl> well the video shows hitting it with oxyhydrogen flame that melts steel and conventional firebrick without much damage
13:04 < muurkha> waterglass is not going to evaporate at the temperatures you can reach with a hydrogen torch.  I don't think it will even lose sodium oxide (but better not to breathe the fumes just in case).  it will lose water tho
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13:05 < muurkha> waterglass exposed to air does cure with co2.  ...eventually
13:05 < muurkha> quartz is very cheap. what isn't cheap is *fused* quartz
13:06 < muurkha> quartz is literally the cheapest solid material you can buy
13:06 < docl> yeah
13:06 < docl> fusing it is the challenge
13:07 < muurkha> you can source quartz tubes from space heaters and some microwave ovens
13:07 < muurkha> well, some space heaters
13:07 < muurkha> or halogen lightbulbs
13:08 < muurkha> fused quartz tubes obviously
13:08 < docl> pondering wherther if I make a tube with this lime composite around a paper form and embed nichrome, I might be able to fuse some silica on that
13:08 < muurkha> interesting idea, but nichrome will melt long before quartz
13:08 < docl> using a high temp ceramic based blanket and so on
13:08 < docl> it'll conduct in molten form maybe?
13:09 < docl> could try tungsten instead perhaps
13:10 < muurkha> he says his "oxyhydrogen" torch is "2800 watts", I wonder how he measures that
13:10 < muurkha> but the color of the flame is wrong for oxyhdrogen
13:10 < muurkha> maybe it's contaminated with sodium
13:12 < muurkha> nichrome does conduct in molten form, yes
13:13 < muurkha> and in some cases people do use it that way, relying on the chromium oxide surface film to keep it from falling off the contacts
13:14 < muurkha> in a reducing atmosphere nichrome tends to burn
13:14 < muurkha> tungsten can't handle more than a couple hundred degrees in air, but tungsten sealed inside fused quartz might work?  I haven't tried it
13:15 < muurkha> that used to be easy to get (halogen lightbulbs).  found some in the neighbor's garbage this afternoon!  but it's mostly been outlawed now
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13:16 < muurkha> garden lime, by the way, is not quicklime (CaO)
13:17 < muurkha> it's calcite (CaCO3)
13:17 < muurkha> it converts to quicklime in the 400-700 degree range IIRC
13:18 < muurkha> so he's confused when he says garden lime has a melting point of 4000 degrees fahrenheit
13:19 < muurkha> garden lime doesn't melt under any conditions I'm familiar with; it calcines
13:19 < muurkha> (maybe quicklime does melt, as nmz787 said)
13:20 < muurkha> he says "it outdoes firebrick by far, it's way heavier, denser"
13:21 < muurkha> but that's confusion; he's comparing it to insulating firebrick, which is full of air on purpose to make it insulate
13:23 < muurkha> being "way heavier, denser" guarantees you'll underperform insulating firebrick at insulation
13:25 < muurkha> if you want non-insulating firebrick, like to line a furnace that needs to be impact-resistant, you can get it.  power resistors and spark plugs are commonly made from pure alumina ceramic, which is one material
13:27 < muurkha> used for non-insulating firebrick
13:27 < muurkha> and probably the main ingredient in the insulating firebrick being tested
13:32 < muurkha> the easy ways to reach high temperatures are arcs, microwave heating, dielectric heating, and induction heating
13:33 < muurkha> more difficult ways include silicon carbide heating elements and, in an inert-gas atmosphere, graphite heating elements 
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13:38 < muurkha> 15 amps at 240 volts is 3600 watts, not 2800 as he said.  maybe he's measuring a lloss of 800 watts in his electrrolyzer?  or maybe he's confusing degrees with watts
13:41 < muurkha> now he says he's dragging his 240 volt power supply down to 174 volts?  is the other 66 volts being dropped in the resistance of the power cable (which would have to be about 4 ohms?)
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13:41 < muurkha> but that is evidently where he's getting the 2800 watts from
13:42 < muurkha> but I guess he doesn't understand that some of that is (usually) lost in the electrolyzer and doesn't make it to the torch
13:42 < muurkha> at least now I'm confident that the flame color is sodium contamination from, probably, water mist
13:47 < Lando-HoloNet> muurkha, HEY
13:47 < Lando-HoloNet> YOU
13:47 < muurkha> he's also maybe not aware that if you hit steel with an oxidizing flame you can cut it at its kindling temperature, which is way below its melting point or even the melting point of the oxide, because the steel itself provides most of the heat by burning
13:48 < muurkha> nominally a torch running off stoke gas like that should be neutral, except that air mixes into it once it gets out of the torch
13:49 < muurkha> he's correct that oxyhydrogen torches reach higher temperatures than oxyacetylene at least
13:50 < muurkha> aha, and he did succeed in melting his castable refractory with the oxyhydrogen torch (5'40")
13:52 < muurkha> anyway it's pretty common to make refractory adhesive with waterglass and a source of a polyvalent cation.  usually iron rather than calcium!
13:53 < muurkha> phosphate-based castable refractories are rated for higher temperatures than those
13:54 < muurkha> black iron oxide is available as a black pigment for pottery or, around here, whitewash
13:57 < muurkha> he says "it's definitely better than cement", by which he presumably means portland cement.  don't even think about trying to use portland cement as castable refractory
13:57 < muurkha> but there are calcium aluminate cements commonly used in foundry work
13:58 < muurkha> certainly waterglass is much stickier than they are!
13:58 < hprmbridge> docl> Here's a possible lead on a phosphate refractory using TSP https://timtinker.com/diy-calcium-phosphate-refractory/
13:59 < muurkha> I also found a recipe for a phosphate castable refractory in an ayurveda textbook
14:00 < muurkha> unfortunately it wasn't very quantitative: https://dernocua.github.io/notes/fire-mud.html
14:01 < muurkha> "Similarly, chalk, salt, and oxidised iron, rubbed together with buffalo’s milk, gives rise to a plaster, called, “fire mud”. This plaster is a strong fire proof, The joint of the basin and the crucible is to be plastered with this fire mud, ..."
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14:10 < muurkha> I think I distrust the ayurveda textbook slightly less than the brown's gas guy
14:11 < muurkha> the smoke coming out of his homemade castable refractory is most likely random contaminants in his ingredients
14:17 < muurkha> at 10'32" you can see that he kindles the drillbit and is throwing sparks off it before it mlts, which demonstrates that the flame is an oxidizing flame. then it falls over (10'32") because he's just oxy-cutting it, he's not melting it
14:18 < muurkha> the first sparks are at 10'30", two seconds earlier
14:18 < muurkha> afterward he gets quite a spark show out of it at 10'41"
14:19 < muurkha> he hasn't really demonstrated that it's a decent dielectric at working temperature (his stated objective at 10'48") but it probably is
14:22 < Lando-HoloNet> is this channel sponsored by hewlett-packard?
14:23 < muurkha> if he's getting that much sodium contamination in his flame he probably doesn't have an effective flashback arrestor in the gas line.  so he's in significant danger of blowing his workshop to kingdom come
14:25 < muurkha> I'm not confident that painting with it will extend the life of your crucibles (11'30") because the alkali in the waterglass will attack things at temperature
14:25 < muurkha> specifically silica and alumina, which are often major ingredients in crucibles
14:26 < muurkha> so it might shorten the life of crucibles instead of extending it
14:27 < Lando-HoloNet> lol
14:27 < Lando-HoloNet> we had a crucible experiment in 10th grade
14:27 < Lando-HoloNet> measuring how much magnesium weighed more after turning into magensium oxide
14:27 < Lando-HoloNet> but a lot of people had theirs weigh less
14:27 < muurkha> if you fire a porous block of the stuff, or maybe even just cure it with carbon dioxide, you ought to be able to leach the alkali out with water
14:27 < Lando-HoloNet> cuz they tdidn't take the Made in China sticker off the crucible first
14:27 < Lando-HoloNet> LOL
14:33 < muurkha> when he said "if you heat it up (...) super red hot, it does soften a bit", that strongly suggests that it's a glass with a transition temperature around 800 degrees, like normal soda-lime glass
14:33 < muurkha> not 1600 degrees like fused silica
14:34 < muurkha> which is not red at all
14:34 < muurkha> suggests that the camera pixels saturating is making it look hotter than it is
14:37 < muurkha> aha, he made his waterglass with silica gel and NaOH in a 2:3 mass ratio, then added the chalk dust
14:38 < muurkha> his warning at 15'53" about deceptive refractory recipes is well taken.  there are a lot of things that will last for a few firings but not many
14:39 < muurkha> it'd be nice if he explained which mixtures those are.  anything based on plaster of paris, say
14:41 < muurkha> the orange color of his glue mix is also a clue that it's contaminated.  waterglass is colorless, chalk is white
14:43 < muurkha> I thought it was a geopolymer slurry when I first saw it, like a metakaolin-waterglass mix.  the aluminosilicate that results from the geopolymer reaction might work as a castable refractory; I haven't heard of anyone trying it, though
14:44 < muurkha> but the geopolymer setting reaction is normally pretty quick at room temperature, so you wouldn't have the indefinite pot life a conventional waterglass refractory adhesive
14:44 < muurkha> or this slightly unconventional one
14:46 < muurkha> maybe you could get a usable geopolymer version by mixing (non-meta)kaolin with waterglass, so that there's no reaction until you heat it up enough to dehydrate the kaolin
14:46 < muurkha> or maybe not
14:48 < muurkha> another thing with respect to "it outdoes firebrick, doesn't it?" (16'54"): there are a lot of different compositions of insulating firebrick, which melt over a wide range of temperatures
14:49 < muurkha> ah, at 17'27" he says that the glass tubes he's using are, as I suspected, fused quartz
14:50 < muurkha> and he says his torch couldn't damage them "to save my life!" which suggests he isn't even reaching 1600 degrees in the gas flame, which would at least fire-polish the broken edges
14:52 < muurkha> at 17'56" he says his cores made out of this stuff are "just too weak".  possibly this is because he was using garden lime, and the calcination reaction involves a great loss of volume, which will break the structure apart from the inside
14:52 < muurkha> but if you try to make it with quicklime, it will set the waterglass immediately
14:53 < muurkha> oh!  those cores are 4% waterglass mixed with silica sand
14:53 < muurkha> not the lime stuff
14:54 < muurkha> well that makes sense.  that's a foundry mold mix (or core mix), designed to be easily broken out of holes in the metal part after it cools
15:00 < muurkha> I think that if you use a larger amount of waterglass the result is much stronger, but will tend to foam up at foundry temperatures.  you can mix in a source of polyvalent cations that will react at temperature to prevent this
15:00 < Lando-HoloNet> Hats for bats.
15:00 < Lando-HoloNet> Keep bats warm.
15:01 < muurkha> this is also where I have to point out that my previous suggestion of mixing black iron oxide pigment into waterglass to get a refractory adhesive is based on reading ingredient lists for commercial refracctory adhesive, not on experiment, so I might be wrong
15:03 < muurkha> alsoI should ppoint out that his homemade waterglass mix is only about 20% waterglass (the rest being water), while commercial waterglass is usually over 30%
15:04 < muurkha> at 18'16" he says his mix "seems to be stiffer than the firebrick" but I see no evidence he has ever tested the stiffness of either one, but he is probably correct because the firebrick is mostly air
15:04 < Lando-HoloNet> muurkha, you've been talking for 2 hours straight
15:05 < muurkha> yes.  hopefully it is useful to docl when he returns
15:08 < muurkha> oh, at 19'47" he says it's *stainless* steel.  so maybe he really is melting it and not just flame-cutting it
15:10 < muurkha> he's talked about stiffness several times by 20'41"
15:10 < muurkha> but it sounds like he's confusing stiffness with strength
15:12 < muurkha> he says he "had to hit 4000 degrees" (to melt his refractory) at 21'11", but he doesn't seem to be measuring it, and both the remark about 'super red hot' and the inability to melt the fused quartz are strong evidence that he's not getting anywhere near 4000 degrees, not even fahrenheit
15:15 < muurkha> at 22'33" he demonstrates his waterglass, and that's clearly where the orange contamination is from
15:16 < muurkha> commercial waterglass is usually a bit yellow, green, or orange from iron contamination
15:16 < muurkha> but this is far less pure.  I'm not sure how you'd purify it
15:18 < muurkha> oh, at 23'52" he shows the recipe he used for the waterglass cores, and it's 33% waterglass rather than the 20% he described earlier
15:20 < muurkha> and at 24'37" he explains that that was the thing that "melted on him" after it was "sitting in air", not the soda-lime composition
15:22 < muurkha> so he's trying a bunch of different recipes
15:23 < muurkha> yeah, at 26'18" I'm almost certain he doesn't know what stiffness is
15:25 < muurkha> also at the end of the video he seems to confuse sodium silicate (waterglass) with silica gel (desiccant beads)
15:32 < muurkha> okay, so, I've finished watching the video.  the summary is that he's almost certainly wrong about how hot his torch is, he's possibly wrong about it being hot enough to melt steel, he's wrong about how high a temperature his castable refractory can withstand, he's been ingesting "brown's gas" pseudoscience, he's confused about what garden lime is, he's confused aboout why his firebrick is light and 
15:32 < muurkha> doesn't know there are different kinds of firebrick, he's confused about what watts are, he apparently isn't aware the refractory concrete he tested is made with a non-portland cement, his waterglass is highly contaminated, and he's probably going to blow himself up
15:32 < muurkha> docl: is that helpful?
15:34 < muurkha> the monocalcium phosphate recipe sounds promising
15:36 < muurkha> I would point out that there is are well-known castable refractory recipes that derive calcium phosphate from calcium silicate and a phosphate, such as phosphoric acid, diammonium phosphate, or dipotassium phosphate
15:37 < muurkha> Tim Tinker so far seems a lot less confused than NOBOX7
15:41 < muurkha> though 'the sodium silicate solution that has an excess of sodium hydroxide in it. This makes it a pretty corrosive caustic' suggests that he doesn't know that there's a continuous range of sodium silicates, some of which are quite caustic without any "free" sodium hydroxide
15:44 < muurkha> with respect to the delamination of his paperclay refractory, it might just be a question of thermal stress; regular fired clays have quite a bit of thermal expansion and not much strength, so it's common to break fired-clay ceramics with thermal gradients.  you can use acicular and low-tce tempers such as mullite and wollastonite (again) to reduce this problem.  I bet garnet and sapphire would also 
15:44 < muurkha> work despite not being acicular
15:47 < muurkha> with respect to "We need to make a good DIY refractory to be able to make a good DIY refractory kiln to fire itself in" the standard approach is to make a kiln out of clay with organic particulate mixed in.  in my test pucks I used used yerba mate, but other people have reported success with sawdust and coffee grounds.  I was using a commercial stoneware clay body with I think a mostly silica temper 
15:47 < muurkha> in a ball clay base
15:49 < muurkha> the organic material burns out when you fire the clay, producing an insulating refractory.  I was able to get solid objects at up to 85% yerba mate, but they were very fragile above 80% yerba mate, and pretty porous above IIRC 60%
15:50 < muurkha> I mean, open-cell porous.  the resulting free gas flow might be desirable for some applications such as catalyst support or regenerative heat exchange but is a drawback for thermal insulation uses
15:52 < muurkha> the (closed-cell) porosity resulting from lower loadings of organic material increases resistance to crack propagation
15:53 < muurkha> as Tim Tinker points out, this makes it much more resistant to thermal shock
15:53 < Lando-HoloNet> muurkha, you've been talking for nearly 3 hours straight
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15:56 < muurkha> aha, he also tried a lime/waterglass recipe, using slaked lime (Ca(OH)2) instead of garden lime, but reports his test pucks falling apart without even being fired
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15:59 < muurkha> a thing to beware of with his mixture is that he's using perlite, which melts about above 1000 degrees I think
16:01 < muurkha> another thing to beware of is that you should be careful not to use (di)calcium *mono*hydrogen phosphate, which is not water-soluble
16:05 < muurkha> a general principle with acid-base cements (ABCs) like this triple-superphosphate/slaked-lime mix is that the reaction has to proceed slowly and generate an amorphous salt, rather than crystallizing.  usually this is done by using a slightly soluble source of polyvalent cations
16:12 < docl> muurkha: yes, thanks. still digesting the info. I might try a small sample of nobox7's stuff to test still but will anticipate failure on that
16:13 < muurkha> I think the basic (ha) idea of using calcium ions to precipitate waterglass is sound
16:14 < docl> :)
16:15 < muurkha> I mean that's what I was doing in http://canonical.org/~kragen/heating-waterglass-foam.mp4
16:18 < Ashstar> what are we looking at muurkha?
16:21 < muurkha> that's me melting some waterglass foam with a butane torch, then dumping calcium chloride over it to make it melt at a higher temperature
16:21 < Ashstar> ic
16:22 < Ashstar> have you done any  hot stage microscopy?
16:22 < muurkha> like NOBOX7, unfortunately, I didn't measure the temperature, because I was doing it on the kitchen floor
16:23 < muurkha> nope, I don't even know about hot stage microscopy!
16:24 < muurkha> aha, Tim Tinker says he's tested his perlite refractories up to 1200 degrees and that perlite melts at 1260 degrees, so I was remembering wrong
16:26 < Ashstar> it is an interesting material, WG
16:26 < muurkha> oh, interestingly Tim Tinker tried the geopolymer thing with some success: "Lightweight DIY refractory material made from vermiculite, cat litter clay and sodium silicate."  Cat litter clay may be unfired bentonite (clumping type) or dehydrated clay such as metakaolin (non-clumping type)
16:27 < Ashstar> it is used for alkali silicates, most commonly designating sodium silicate ((Na2O)x(SiO2)y)
16:28 < muurkha> yeah, both of these experimenters are using sodium silicate, though potassium silicate would work similarly
16:28 < Ashstar> yea
16:28 < hprmbridge> kanzure>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1191176103579103322/image0.jpg?ex=65a47c32&is=65920732&hm=9efe11683780f87c91f95e2cab155ee8f2e2e1fc11ca5d67feac03ce3df88d5d&
16:31 < Ashstar> well, time to reload firebox
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17:36 < fenn> docl: kanthal is better than nichrome in every way
17:38 < fenn> they banned the resistive light bulbs to conserve electricity, then they banned the gas heaters for reasons that don't really make sense
17:38 < fenn> when will you be able to buy a "halogen electric heater" i wonder
17:39 < fenn> a 500W heater that emits light as a byproduct
17:39 < L29Ah> heat balls
17:39 < hprmbridge> docl> I've obtained crystal cat litter and clay kitty litter, will check if that's clumping or non clumping. Ordered a dual laser thermometer gun that's supposed to work up to 2732 °F, but it won't arrive for a while. Also getting a $200 oxygen concentrator that's supposed to go to 90%, idea is to pair it with a propane torch. I'm hesitating to buy a torch kit quite yet, wonder if I can DIY a clay one
17:39 < hprmbridge> docl> with some tubing.
17:41 < fenn> it used to be common to find surplus oxygen concentrators from people who had emphysema and died, but then nobody wanted to recertify it as a medical device
17:41 < fenn> basically for free
17:42 < hprmbridge> docl> Kanthal has a higher melting point I see, but not quite enough to fuse silica if I want to do that 🤔
17:43 < hprmbridge> docl> Maybe I should just try to do a plasma based heating element
17:43 < L29Ah> TIG welder?
17:43 < fenn> aren't you only doing like 1000C
17:45 < hprmbridge> docl> Depends if I decide to reach for fused silica capability. Don't need higher than that for anything else really
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17:52 < hprmbridge> bootstrap3141> Where are gas heaters banned? I see those a lot in the US
18:09 < hprmbridge> docl> Am trying to develop runway products, since it's unlikely aerographite will be something I can just do from the get go (much less space based antimatter production based on that). Good tube furnaces and kilns, that might be a good way to bring in some cash while building capability. Hmm, titanium inert gas in an enclosed tube could work great as a heating element. Needs to be able to handle the
18:09 < hprmbridge> docl> expected pressure of course. Might run at ultra low pressure.
18:14 < fenn> https://fennetic.net/sd/bat_with_hat_00110-3381521224.jpg
18:15 < fenn> titanium is not that great
18:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Happy new year folks
18:37 < hprmbridge> docl> Happy new year
18:38 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2605:a601:a0cd:9500:3816:1d2d:d85f:8c24] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:55 < hprmbridge> kanzure> is it solar rotation day again?
18:59 < docl> yeah this ball of rock made it around the sun again
19:02 < docl> hmm, titanium carbide is pretty high melting temp, 3160 °C
19:10 < docl> hmm. CVD diamond isn't that hot of a process. wonder if I could do that on borosilicate?
19:22 < docl> ah, it's hard to get single crystal thicker than a few micrometers. doable though
19:29 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://foresight.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/2023-MM-report-v5.pdf
19:31 < hprmbridge> kanzure> from https://twitter.com/TomKnightSynBio/status/1741524881236226055
19:41 < Ashstar> BoSi has a relatively low MP
19:51 < Ashstar> lower than titanium carbide
19:52 < Ashstar> but does have other interesting properties
19:56 < Ashstar> it also makes good chemistry glassware has superior abrasion resistance from strong ionic bonding that results in a strong, interconnected atomic glass network. Some phase separation between the boron and silica glass phases helps to create a stronger glass network and ultimately a harder surface that is able to resist abrasion
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20:22 < hprmbridge> fodagut> Happy new year everyone
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20:47 < muurkha> fenn: here apparently heat lamps are legal, so you can get a 325 watt clear heat lamp with an E27 base
20:48 < muurkha> docl: I'm skeptical of the DIY clay torch kit idea
20:49 < muurkha> docl: there are several different grades of Kanthal with different melting points but I don't think there's any air-stable metal commopnly used for heating elements that can melt silica
20:49 < muurkha> I mean obviously platinum can
20:50 < muurkha> presumably you mean "tungsten inert gas" rather than "titanium"
20:51 < muurkha> titanium would work as a getter for running at ultra low pressures but not a high-temperature heating element
20:52 < muurkha> titanium carbide has the same problem as tungsten as a heating element: it burns in air.  if that isn't a problem you can just use graphite
20:52 < muurkha> Ashstar: interesting, I didn't know that about borosilicate
21:10 < docl> ah, I looked up TIG and misread it. yes, should be tungsten. that makes way more sense. I wonder why they don't use graphite for welding?
21:23 < muurkha> they do use it for arc gouging
21:25 < muurkha> it doesn't take much carbon to screw up steels; maybe that's why
21:25 < muurkha> or titanium
21:26 < muurkha> also, though I'd forgotten this, aluminum
21:28 < muurkha> a thing to keep in mind with fertilizer is that impurities are usually measured not in tens of ppm but tens of percent
21:31 < muurkha> for highly soluble things like diammonium phosphate you can purify them by recrystallization
21:31 < muurkha> I don't think that is practical for monocalcium phosphate
21:33 < muurkha> I mean, I don't know, maybe it is
21:37 < docl> I do have some lab grade phosphoric acid on hand if I only need small quantities of the pure stuff. might be fine for a liner
21:38 < docl> gets a little pricey if you need gallons of it
21:38 < muurkha> hardware store phosphoric acid is pretty cheap
21:40 < docl> for some reason I can't seem to source that at any local hardware store. they all have proprietary blends for rust removal. maybe I just need to find a better hardware store
21:40 < muurkha> probably the impurities they add won't affect these uses
21:40 < muurkha> unlike additional heavy metals
21:41 < muurkha> I feel like it shouldn't be too hard to purify though
21:41 < muurkha> like, you could make monoammonium phosphate from the acid, recrystallize it, amd then heat it to drive off the ammonia
21:43 < muurkha> also the monoammonium phosphate I see for sale as fertilizer looks a lot purer in the photos than the more common diammonium phosphate
21:45 < muurkha> not sure why that is or if it's just misleading
21:46 < muurkha> also you might prefer to use something like dipotassium phosphate instead of phosphoric acid so you don't have to panic if you splash it in your eyes
21:47 < muurkha> there are commercial phosphate cements for things like runway repair that are ammonium-phosphate-based, but the ammonia emissions when they cure are often considered a big drawback
21:48 < muurkha> more recent ones use potassium
21:51 < docl> if you can isolate from oxygen, maybe a kiln made mostly of graphite (or charcoal, which is cheaper) would make sense?
21:52 < muurkha> by the way, I don't want to sidetrack you into wasting months reading papers instead of trying stuff, but I think it's probably worth reading Kingery's very entertaining dissertation about phosphate ceramics
21:54 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://spectrum.ieee.org/flow-battery-2666672335
21:54 < hprmbridge> nmz787> CAN FLOW BATTERIES FINALLY BEAT LITHIUM?
21:54 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Nanoparticles may boost energy density enough for EVs
21:54 < hprmbridge> nmz787> ROBERT N. CHARETTE
21:54 < hprmbridge> nmz787> 24 DEC 2023
21:56 < muurkha> yes, graphite is the *only* practical kiln material above carborundum's service temperature
21:57 < muurkha> although in theory hafnium carbide and such exotica could beat graphite at that
22:00 < muurkha> actually maybe zirconia is also up there.  I haven't actually built a high-temperature kiln
22:08 < docl> the high thermal conductivity might be the main problem. apparently even lightweight graphite foams are pretty conductive. not sure that's true of extreme versions like aerographite though
22:10 < Ashstar> the carbon-based nature of Aerographene grants it excellent electrical conductivity, which opens up possibilities for its use in electronics, energy storage devices, and as a conductive additive in composites
22:11 < muurkha> yeah, presumably being mostly empty space means it will have low stiffness, thermal conductivity, and electrical conductivity
22:12 < docl> should be lower than the pure form. but carbon is a kind of fantastic conductor. haven't been able to dig up stats for thermal conductivity for aerographite yet
22:13 < docl> well, charcoal isn't that thermally conductive is it? I can pick up a charcoal piece that has part of it on fire
22:14 < Ashstar> graphene aerogel are somewhat similar to graphene foams. Graphene foams are usually made by CVD growth on a metal structure (which is later removed), and are so more conductive than graphene aerogels
22:16 < docl> perhaps that's because it's a big molecule instead of a bunch of flakes pressed together like I assume charcoal is
22:17 < docl> diamond is the ultra thermally conductive thing I was thinking of
22:18 < muurkha> graphite is pretty thermally conductive parallel to the layers
22:18 < muurkha> charcoal isn't that thermally conductive because it's mostly empty space
22:19 < muurkha> also though I think it's amorphous?
22:20 < muurkha> Ashstar: oh wow, I didn't know that about graphene foams
22:23 < docl> since charcoal is incredibly cheap (briquettes at the store e.g) I'm imagining a process to make a cement of that. powder and mix with corn starch and water say. then coat with clay and heat (run current maybe). needs to permit H/O/H2O to escape, of course.
22:23 < docl> there'll be some ash mixed in but probably not a major factor in kiln construction quality
22:26 < docl> or could use pitch I guess. starch or say sugar seems easier for diyers if you can just use that.
22:37 < muurkha> charcoal briquettes are full of non-charcoal crap
22:37 < muurkha> but you can make reasonably pure charcoal from wood if you wash it with acid to remove the alkali
22:38 < docl> stuff you can drive off thermally probably doesn't matter too much (smoke issues aside)
22:38 < muurkha> but alkali might
22:39 < docl> ok so wash in acid might be necessary
22:39 < muurkha> maybe, dunno
22:39 < muurkha> if you want to add goo and carbonize it, it's important for the goo not to melt before carbonizing
22:40 < muurkha> for that you want a thermoset like epoxy.  cross-linked carbon chains, not entangled ones
22:40 < muurkha> I forget what edison's process was for lightbulbs tho, maybe pitch can work
22:42 < docl> well corn starch is long molecules already
22:43 < muurkha> you can crosslink them with glutaraldehyde
22:43 < muurkha> but that involves working with glutaraldehyde, which you might not like
22:45 < muurkha> washing charcoal briquettes in acid won't remove all the fly ash and crap they sometimes add
22:55 < docl> well charcoal retort was sort of on my list of things to maybe do anyway so I might use wood if need be. maybe sawdust?
23:07 < docl> clay is plenty refractory enough for charcoal making operations, of course. ideally you drive off the wood gas at around 300 °C then burn that to keep the process going
--- Log closed Mon Jan 01 00:00:16 2024