--- Log opened Tue Jan 02 00:00:17 2024
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00:52 < fenn> .m https://twitter.com/mnovendstern/status/1739523788390445398
00:52 < AugustaAva> ​twitter: <mnovendstern> the most underrated technology right now: the capacity to generate egg cells from stem cells in arbitrary quantity + capacity to select for IQ among embryos means IVF will enable the selection of children with one-in-a-million IQ markers. this is not priced in.
00:52 < fenn> (but also it's not a purchaseable service afaik)
00:53 < fenn> .m https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1739635875481366890#m
00:53 < AugustaAva> ​twitter: <kanzure> @mnovendstern You can only select for whatever is already there. What you actually want is germline genetic engineering. Why focus on strictly inferior technology when the future is at stake?
00:55 < fenn> because when your "one in a million" selection method turns out monsters and duds, you can say "whoops. how could anyone have known a random permutation of existing genes would do that" whereas when you do it with crispr with the same cost/benefit ratio, you get hounded and tried at nuremburg
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01:17 < muurkha> fenn: lots of congenital illnesses is my prediction, yeah
01:17 < muurkha> docl: you can't hydrate Ca or Mg carbonate
01:19 < docl> muurkha: I guess it's no longer carbonate at that point
01:21 < docl> https://www.carmeuse.com/na-en/references/case-studies-success-stories/benefits-type-s-masons-lime
01:21 < muurkha> docl: exposed perlite granules glow quickly because they have high porosity and thus low thermal conductivity and low volumetric specific heat, so they reach the temperature of the flame very quickly, while the clay surface takes much longer
01:22 < muurkha> clumping kitty litter clay will not make good bricks on its own because it is bentonite
01:23 < muurkha> because it's so absorbent of water, it expands a lot when you wet it and contracts a lot when you dry it, so the humidity gradient from drying sets up a large strain gradient in the material
01:23 < docl> this is the non clumping kind
01:24 < fenn> heh i was literally just about to say that
01:24 < fenn> there's something called "fire clay"
01:24 < muurkha> you may be able to overcome this with a high enough loading of perlite, but you may need to mix in less expansive clays like kaolinite or other tempers like grog or feldspar
01:25 < fenn> $8 for 50lb at home depot
01:26 < muurkha> a 5-liter bag of expanded perlite was $2290 at the supermarket here last week
01:26 < fenn> i'm not sure if what's sold at home depot is actually what's used in construction of furnaces, but it's got to be better than bentonite
01:27 < muurkha> that's about US$2.40, and works out to US$14 for two "cubic feet", in the same ballpark you're paying
01:28 < fenn> but perlite and clay are not substitutes for each other
01:28 < fenn> perlite melts at a much lower temperature, clay has more thermal mass and less insulation
01:28 < muurkha> nmz787: I like the home plasma asher idea
01:29 < fenn> i'm worried that the high temperatures will generate nitrous oxides and ozone
01:29 < muurkha> docl: yes, "hydrated lime" means the metal hydroxides.  take care
01:30 < fenn> NOx however you say that
01:31 < muurkha> docl: oh, interesting, how did you get the non-clumping kind of kitty litter to stick together?  I thought it was already baked enough to not plasticize with watter
01:31 < muurkha> fenn: yeah, I forget what fireclay is
01:33 < muurkha> mostly kaolin, says WP, with other high-melting clays and tempers pre-included..  sounds ideal for this kind of thing
01:34 < muurkha> I wonder if Easy (the Chilean chain that's the closest equivalent to Home Despot) has it
01:36 < muurkha> seems like somebody does, US$8 for 20kg: https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-721492806-arcilla-refractaria-de-20-kg-_JM
01:37 < muurkha> "Para pegar todo tipo de ladrillos refractarios", "For gluing any type of firebrick"
01:37 < muurkha> thanks, fenn!
01:37 < fenn> docl: if you're dead set on using pine sawdust pellets, that could be a way to add voids to a ceramic furnace liner material. traditionally dung and finely chopped straw iirc. the dung particles would create a smaller distribution of void sizes i guess
01:38 < fenn> docl: instead of having a solid block of clay, the brick ends up being lighter and more insulating, but keeps the high temperature resistance of clay
01:38 < muurkha> yes.  what I'd suggested previously, fenn, was sawdust and coffee grounds
01:39 < fenn> coffee doesn't seem fine enough to be different from sawdust
01:39 < muurkha> though my own tests used yerba mate because that's what I drink
01:39 < muurkha> I agree that coffee grounds and sawdust should be equivalent
01:40 < fenn> imagine the smell
01:40 < muurkha> but you might have only one or the other
01:40 < muurkha> oh, yeah, I didn't mention the horrendous smell
01:40 < muurkha> yerba is like a very coarse sawdust
01:44 < fenn> an oxygen concentrator should make for easy clean burning salmon juice contaminated plastic
01:44 < fenn> no nitrogen, no problem :)
01:45 < muurkha> can you eliminate the nox with AdBlue?
01:46 < fenn> seems so
01:47 < fenn> where are we going to get an aqueous solution of urea that discourages wild predators
01:48 < fenn> .wik selective catalytic reduction
01:48 < EmmyNoether> "Selective catalytic reduction (SCR) means of converting nitrogen oxides, also referred to as NO|x with the aid of a catalyst into diatomic nitrogen (N|2), and water (H|2O)." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction
01:49 < muurkha> you can buy it at the gas station I think
01:49 < muurkha> including in Argentina, so I assume in like Pakistan and Idaho and the Philippines too
01:51 < fenn> probably not in pakistan
01:51 < muurkha> why not?
01:52 < muurkha> it looks like it's widely available there: https://www.ubuy.com.pk/en/product/2CY1XBJS-bluedef-def003-4pk-diesel-exhaust-fluid-1-gallon-pack-of-4-128-ounces-4-pack
01:52 < muurkha> but who knows
01:53 < fenn> uh because my mental model of "pakistan" is "rural pakistan" apparently
01:53 < muurkha> https://www.pakwheels.com/ur/accessories-spare-parts/adblue-diesel-exhaust-fluid-10l-8495204 looks slightly more legit
01:54 < fenn> stumped chatgpt lol
01:54 < muurkha> on what?
01:55 < fenn> "are trucks required to use diesel exhaust fluid in pakistan?"
01:56 < fenn> anyway that's not a rabbit hole i need to go down today
01:57 < muurkha> https://tribune.com.pk/story/2278973/automakers-may-suffer-due-to-euro-5-switch doesn't specifically answer the DEF question but suggests that it is likely
01:59 < muurkha> https://carspiritpk.com/understanding-emission-standards/ more specifically says that the Euro 6 standard is what probably requires DEF
02:00 < muurkha> which they haven't adopted yet
02:09 < fenn> Philippines implemented Euro 4 emission standards in 2016
02:11 < fenn> "Philippine Blue Corporation was established in 2020 to cater the vast demand of Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) for vehicles compliant with Euro 4 and up"
02:14 < muurkha> cool
02:14 < muurkha> also Easy sells solid urea by the kilogram for fertilizer
02:17 < fenn> it was a joke btw
02:17 < fenn> next time i will be sure to add a snark mark~
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04:15 < hprmbridge> kanzure> calling for my death trial at nuremberg seems premature at this time
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05:37 < hprmbridge> Eli> @muurkha are you in Argentina? I've been considering going down there at some point. Have a friend near buenos aires
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07:46 < hprmbridge> kanzure> artificial wombs discord https://discord.com/invite/z8qeUERm
07:46 < hprmbridge> kanzure> looks like the usual users
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10:18 < docl> muurkha: ah I see bentonite's expansion/shrinkage is an issue. I wonder if it works differently if I use waterglass instead of just water?
10:18 < docl> probably using a different substance is lower hanging fruit though
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10:38 < docl> hmm, I should see if mixing with lime or fine sand gives me a nonshrinking grout like effect.
10:39 < docl> apparently calcium bentonite is non-swelling http://www.texassodiumbentonite.com/storm.cfm?funnelaction=226
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11:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> artificial wombs reading list thing https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tDV4w3tGyngSNjfq5L1qWmY-l1yAoOAxUH-3Bs4BihU/edit
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13:19 < hprmbridge> nmz787> fenn: hmm, I know someone that built a nitrogen concentrator at home, so I guess something tiny (slow?) should be possible too. Assuming you only need to run the machine once a day, or 3x a week or something. Also I'd guess the more you pack the chamber, the less flush-gas you'd need. Though I guess you'd still need stoichiometric oxygen input to fully convert carbon molecules to CO/CO2
13:21 < hprmbridge> nmz787> kanzure fenn jrayhawk: https://frame.work/   modular/repairable laptop
13:21 < hprmbridge> nmz787> they look high quality from first glance
13:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Egg-freezing-catherios-info-for-friends--Afq7dNe9kR4Ea_4csETEt3mIAg-tI98uI9kmLOlLRRuO80Zh
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14:15 < docl> adding lime to the clay mix doesn't seem to prevent shrinking and cracking when I hit it with the propane torch. the perlite aggregate gets smaller cracks though. I'm considering adding shaving cream. apparently that's a diy trick used to make aircrete
14:21 < fenn> where's the third party aftermarket for framework laptop parts
14:27 < fenn> publish a hardware interface spec or gtfo
14:33 < fenn> framework CAD files: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13/
14:34 < fenn> it wasn't anywhere on the website that i could see, but i found it in the forums
14:45 < fenn> an unofficial "reference" 3d model of the mainboard https://github.com/whatthefilament/Framework-Motherboard-Reference-CAD
14:51 < muurkha> Eli: Yes!  I am!
14:56 < muurkha> docl: if you're using the non-clumping type of cat litter, the kind that is like small hard rocks, I don't think that's either bnentonite or expansive.  but how did you get it to stick together?
14:57 < muurkha> waterglass with metakaolin makes geopolymer cement, which Tim Tinker reported some success using as a refractoryin the page you linked
14:58 < muurkha> mixing with fine sand does reduce shrinkage, but I don't think you can make a usable clay body out of just bentonite and tempers like sand
14:59 < muurkha> slaked lime will have extreme effects but I don't know what they'll be
14:59 < muurkha> slaked lime and sand is traditional lime mortar
15:02 < muurkha> there's an idiom in Spanish, "como cal y arena", "like lime and sand", meaning two things that intrinsically go together, because you can't build with either lime or sand by itself; you have to combine them to get a lime concrete.  optionally you can also use coarser aggregate like gravel to get a stronger concrete.  lime mortar is not useful as a refractory because it calcines at a relatively low 
15:02 < muurkha> temperature, too low even for vitrofusion
15:07 < muurkha> if you want to reproduce NOBOX7's results you will need carbonates, not the hydroxides you got.  you can make the carbonate from the hydroxide by bubbling CO₂ through it for a few days or reacting it with a soluble carbonate or bicarbonate such as washing soda or baking soda
15:07 < muurkha> but it's probably easier to just buy the calcium carbonate, which is garden lime or chalk (but not chalkboard chalk, which is actually gypsum)
15:08 < muurkha> I bought mine from the dirt store.  I think they mostly sell to cosmetics makers
15:09 < fenn> ahem, it's called *regolith*
15:10 < fenn> the artificial wombs discord has a lot of traffic for a one day old thing
15:10 < fenn> i'm getting a lesswrong vibe
15:10 < muurkha> I also bought diatomaceous earth, boric acid, copper sulfate, bentonite, and a bunch of other minimally processed minerals at the dirt store
15:10 < muurkha> sadly they do not have regolith
15:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yes they are all lw people
15:11 < fenn> do they realize that kids are such a huge time suck that they'll never solve AGI in the next 18 years
15:11 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hm?
15:11 < fenn> i mean too busy raising kids to think about dreamy mathland problems
15:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://worksinprogress.co/
15:12 < fenn> is the idea to pay third worlders to raise artificial geniuses as some kind of backup plan?
15:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I think it's just that some are still interested in humans or biology.
15:14 < hprmbridge> kanzure> human superintelligence, not just silicon superintelligence
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15:17 < docl> muurkha: this was non-clumping per the label, it dissolved into water to make a smooth mud on its own. mixing in the lime hydrate made this happen faster. the clay by itself was more peanut butter consistency whereas with lime it became more like soft serve ice cream texture
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15:18 < fenn> [the smallpox eradication campaign] "repesents the ideals of Works in Progress: to see possibility where others see despair, to persuade with reason and evidence, and to push the boundaries of global welfare with human ingenuity."
15:18 < muurkha> docl: I've never seen a non-clumping cat litter that dissolved or even dispersed in water ("mud" suggests it dispersed rather than dissolving)
15:19 < muurkha> so I guess I have no idea what it's made of
15:20 < muurkha> I would have said that peanut butter and soft-serve ice cream have the same rheology, or anyway that soft-serve ice cream is within the range of peanut-butter rheologies
15:21 < docl> hmm, actually this was the clumping kind
15:21 < docl> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Purina-Tidy-Cats-Clumping-Cat-Litter-Free-Clean-Unscented-Multi-Cat-Litter-20-lb-Jug
15:26 < docl> not sure how to describe the difference exactly. pretty close in either case, but the clay seemed stickier. cookie dough like? or frosting like for the clay without perlite I guess. I didn't touch the lime mix with my hands though, I just used a stick.
15:26 < docl> I also got some non clumping kind which was cheaper https://www.walmart.com/ip/Special-Kitty-Fragrance-Free-Non-Clumping-Natural-Clay-Litter-20-lb/2408846473
15:32 < muurkha> so it's probably bentonite
15:33 < muurkha> it's not that dangerous to get lime mortar on your hands if you wash it off relatively quickly
15:34 < fenn> "Over the summers of the following 19 years, 85,000 A. victoria jellyfish were caught off Friday Harbor in Washington state in attempts to isolate sufficient amounts of GFP that allowed for a more thorough characterization. ... Shimomura admitted in one of the interviews many years later, ‘I didn’t know any use of . . . that fluorescent protein, at that time.’"
15:35 < fenn> some people have hobbies
15:35 < muurkha> non-clumping natural clay litter has normally been baked enough to dehydrate it (so it no longer disperses in water or swells from water) but not enough to sinter it (so you can still crumble it, and it still has a lot of porosity to absorb urine)
15:36 < fenn> btw toxoplasma infection is caused by undercooked meat and soil exposure when living near pig farms
15:36 < fenn> cat owners are slightly less likely to be seropositive
15:37 < fenn> unless they live in a pig farming area
15:37 < fenn> then it's slightly more likely
15:38 < fenn> i feel the cats have been unjustly blamed; better advice would be to avoid eating undercooked meat when pregnant
15:39 < docl> can confirm that at least after 10min the non clumping hasn't dissolved
15:42 < docl> yeah am able to crumple with a bit of force
15:44 < muurkha> probably about the same with the non-clumping litter you haven't wet
15:51 < docl> yeah
15:52 < docl> I wonder if adding lime will make it dissolve? the clumping litter dissolved quickly in warm water with lime
16:02 < docl> no immediately noticeable result from that
16:06 < fenn> useless webshit problem #2392: dropbox paper won't let you export or download the file (without signing in? or maybe at all?)
16:08 < fenn> it's just a worse etherpad ffs
16:11 < fenn> omg "Ovaries go from walnut- to orange-sized"
16:17 < fenn> "We were really happy with RMA-NC on pretty much every dimension. We agree it is the only case we can think of where we were left impressed and happy after interacting with any kind of medical institution"
16:18 < fenn> (that stands for Reproductive Medicine Associates of Northern California)
16:19 < fenn> why is this a thing:
16:19 < fenn> "The first-of-its-kind card, the award-winning Carrot Card is an easy way for employees to pay for treatment like egg freezing, in vitro fertilization (IVF), adoption, donor and gestational carrier services, and more without having to first pay out-of-pocket and wait to be reimbursed."
16:28 < fenn> i'm confused who this service (Carrot) is being marketed to. is it a health insurance add-on for employers?
16:29 < fenn> if a health insurance service is not mandatory, doesn't that drive up the price for people who need it?
16:30 < fenn> there will be the 1% of people with nearly impossible infertility cases that normally would just give up if they had to pay out of pocket
16:32 < fenn> "Typical gestational surrogacy costs can vary widely, with the average cost of a successful first-attempt gestational carrier (GC) pregnancy in the U.S. starting at $136,000"
16:35 < fenn> is this accurate? "The technical definition of a surrogate is someone who donates their egg and then subsequently carries the pregnancy. A gestational carrier, on the other hand, is defined as a person carrying a pregnancy they are in no way biologically related to."
16:37 < fenn> chatgpt says no
16:37 < Lando-SpacePimp> fenn
16:40 < fenn> what
16:41 < fenn> if you give me shit about using IRC as an asynchronous communication medium, i will ban you
16:44 < L29Ah> COMPUTER SAYS NO
16:45 < fenn> do you know the answer?
16:45 < fenn> how am i supposed to find the answer?
16:45 < Lando-SpacePimp> fenn
16:47 < L29Ah> you ask people who are in the business, like you do with other argot (in fact you stfw and find others asking that decades ago)
16:52 < fenn> 1) i don't know anyone in the business
16:52 < fenn> 2) search is fucking useless now
17:00 < L29Ah> https://searxng.ipv3.network/search?q="gestational%20carrier"
17:00 < L29Ah> looks worky for me
17:01 < fenn> specifically, does "surrogate" necessarily imply "egg donor"
17:02 < fenn> is "surrogate is someone who donates their egg" true or false?
17:02 < fenn> or ambiguous
17:03 < L29Ah> too ambiguous
17:06 < fenn> "traditional surrogacy, which is actually illegal across the United States and no longer recognized" huh
17:10 < fenn> wtf wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvert_v._Johnson
17:10 < fenn> W T F
17:11 < L29Ah> do it plonker
17:12 < fenn> In Johnson v. Calvert,' the Supreme Court of California addressed the issue of whether the genetic mother or the gestational mother of a child produced in an in vitro fertilization procedure is the "natural" mother of the child, with all of the rights such status guarantees.
17:13 < fenn> i will complain instead
17:13 < fenn> i can't remember the last time i did anything on wikipedia that wasn't insta-deleted
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18:18 < muurkha> docl: lime is strongly basic, which will tend to deflocculate clay https://digitalfire.com/article/deflocculants%3A+a+detailed+overview
18:18 < muurkha> if it doesn't do something stronger and different
18:22 < muurkha> so for example calcium ions in solution have a flocculating rather than deflocculating effect
19:19 < Ashstar> Ca++ is less basic than Na+ OH
19:21 < Ashstar> but mol per mole, Ca++ has two OH's so it is a strong base
19:44 < hprmbridge> nmz787> About to go shove dry ice in the water chamber of an espresso machine, with some noble fir needles in the coffee area. Hopefully any burst safety valve things rupture before I get exploded
19:45 < hprmbridge> nmz787> In fact now i wonder, they're probably wayyyy lower than even required to get to subcritical co2
19:45 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Let alone super
19:45 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Hrmm
19:45 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Maybe I'll just go make more spooky vapor
20:00 < muurkha> Ashstar: much to my surprise, NaOH's pKa is 15.7, and Ca(OH)2's is 12.63, so indeed lime is more basic, just as you say
20:01 < muurkha> nmz787: isn't subcritical CO2 just regular CO2?
20:06 < hprmbridge> nmz787> No it's it's own thing in terms of extraction mechanisms
20:06 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Afaik
20:09 < muurkha> oh, you mean liquid CO2?
20:10 < muurkha> because gaseous and solid CO2 are also subcritical in the sense of not being supercritical fluids (in the gas and liquid case because they're below the critical temperature)
20:10 < muurkha> what are you extracting from the needles?
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20:32 < fenn>  uh i hope your espresso machine is rated for 1000 psi
20:33 < fenn> also how do you open the thing without getting exploded?
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20:38 < fenn> liquid CO2 only exists above 5 bar
20:57 < hprmbridge> nmz787> It has a screw top that I planned to add the solid co2 into, then close it up and turn on the heater
20:57 < hprmbridge> nmz787> But yeah seems most of these machines probably have safety valves or whatever at 300psi
20:58 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Muurkha was just thinking I'd get some essential oils out
20:59 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Fenn also there's a valve to push steam past the coffee, so that's how I planned to get it out once liquidy/gassy
20:59 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I'll just wait for some steel pipe and swagelok fittings
21:10 < fenn> you shouldn't need a heater
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21:55 < hprmbridge> nmz787> To speed up the conversion of cold af dry ice, it'd help
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22:13 < docl> made some sodium silicate today. I accidentally doubled the water so it ended up a bit dilute. I ended up using 90g lye and 60g silica in 400g water. mixing it with lime hydrate makes a paint like substance that seems to hold up well under the propane flame. some small cracks, but seems better than the water/clay/lime I was using earlier. haven't tried mixing with perlite yet. it glows relatively 
22:13 < docl> quickly under the flame.
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 03 00:00:18 2024