--- Log opened Wed Jan 03 00:00:18 2024
00:03 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Cool
00:04 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I'm wondering if filtered (or refluxed?) Firewood ash plus sand would do something interesting (in terms of waterglass like substance)
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07:26 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Unlimited-Research-Cooperative/Human-Brain-Rat/main/images/bidirectional_brain_computer_communication.jpg
07:26 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> https://github.com/Unlimited-Research-Cooperative/Human-Brain-Rat
08:11 < muurkha> nmz787: in general to digest quartz with lye to make waterglass you need a pretty high temperature, because at room temperature quartz is too inert.  I ran across a patent claiming that by heating quartz until it becomes tridymite or cristobalite (and presumably then quenching it so it doesn't revert to quartz as it cools) you can digest it with lye in under an hour at under 200 degrees, but I 
08:11 < muurkha> haven't tried it, and lots of patents are wrong
08:12 < muurkha> fenn: 5 bar is only 73 "psi", not 1000
08:13 < muurkha> there's a nice phase diagram at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_carbon_dioxide#/media/File:Carbon_dioxide_pressure-temperature_phase_diagram.svg
08:14 < muurkha> it makes it look like at room temperature you need 30 bar, not 5 bar, for liquid CO2
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08:14 < muurkha> docl: what kind of silica did you use?  were you able to get it transparent, or is it cloudy?
08:15 < muurkha> 30 bar is 435 "psi"
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09:38 < docl> I used kitty litter silica gel crystals. it seemed to dissolve readily with a bit of warming and stirring. had to do it outdoors due to the fumes. I used a stainless cooking pot and warmed it with my propane torch.
09:47 < muurkha> makes sense.  what kind of fumes did you get?
09:48 < muurkha> silica gel, by the way, is amorphous; it doesn't form crystals
09:48 < muurkha> or, well, it can crystallize but then it's not silica gel anymore, it's quartz (or tridymite or cristobalite)
09:49 < docl> hmm. it's perhaps a little cloudy. I didn't filter it
09:50 < docl> ah, they call it crystals on the kitty litter label. makes sense it's really amorphous
09:51 < muurkha> if it's cloudy it might be viscous because there's crap floating in it, or because it's a dispersion, not because you've solubilized the silica
09:52 < docl> there's some clay contamination (didn't clean the pot particularly well)
09:57 < muurkha> I'm just thinking about how you said the clumping litter "dissolved", but the result you described was a colloid, not a solution
10:13 < docl> how much lye is needed to guarantee it dissolves? I put 50% more lye than silica by weight
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10:19 < muurkha> I don't know
10:31 < docl> it seems relatively clear, just not clear like water. so my guess is it did mostly dissolve. also the steam was clearly not plain water (being in the room with it causes breathing distress -- I covered it and moved the reaction outdoors quickly)
10:32 < muurkha> did it have a smell?
10:32 < muurkha> waterglass being pretty viscous and prone to gelling sometimes keeps bubbles entrained for long periods of time or forever, which can make it cloudy
10:33 < docl> I don't remember a smell per se, just not wanting to breathe it. lime has a much stronger smell
10:54 < docl> filtered it through a coffee filter. still seems a bit cloudy to me. but it is definitely an amber color and more viscous than water
10:58 < L29Ah> why don't you buy sodium silicate instead?
11:00 < L29Ah> https://rushim.ru/product_info.php?products_id=6423 dirt cheap unlike silica gel
11:05 < docl> I'm seeing it priced at $20/gal from US sources. I don't read russian, am assuming that's 140 roubles per liter? so about $1.50/L
11:09 < L29Ah> kilogram of solid
11:09 < L29Ah> i got powdered when i bought it several years ago
11:11 < docl> cat litter silica is about $2/lb so not a huge difference. more work to prepare though
11:11 < docl> also I'm using a large excess of sodium hydroxide which is more expensive
11:27 < docl> I can see solid sodium silicate $90 for 50lb bag. if I end up with a process demanding that much, I might just use that. it's also possible to make directly from sand using molten lye, apparently. I'll think about that more if/when I have a need for big amounts... 
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11:41 < muurkha> sodium hydroxide is cheaper than silica gel or sodium silicate
11:41 < muurkha> (or other kinds of waterglass)
11:45 < muurkha> amber color is iron contamination, usually.  not usually a problem
12:31 < docl> I also tried mixing shaving foam with sodium silicate and lime. it formed a lightweight refractory foam that glowed quickly, but was crumbly. it also formed dark spots under the torch flame akin to a burning marshmallow. I should probably try mixing in clay and/or sand, perlite aggregate, etc.
12:32 < docl> (this is barbosol original, and per label it contains water, stearic acid, isobutane, triethanolomine, laureth-23, sodium laurel sulfate, propane, and fragrance)
12:49 < muurkha> so does slaked dolomitic lime make the sodium silicate set hard?  if so, how quickly?
12:49 < muurkha> *lauryl
12:52 < muurkha> I would intuitively expect the soluble calcium ions to ionically cross-link the silicone chains from the sodium silicate, making it gel instantly.  but maybe the lime's solubility is low enough that that doesn't happen
12:52 < muurkha> and I would expect the magnesium hydroxide to be completely inert in that sense because its water-solubility is too low
12:53 < muurkha> how hot does the foam get before it starts to suffer damage?
12:56 < docl> the lime + sodium silicate mix I made last night is hard this morning, seems kind of waxy. was reasonably fluid for at least several minutes after I mixed them, but I did notice it getting more viscous after maybe 30min
12:57 < muurkha> interesting!  that's plenty of time for molding
12:58 < muurkha> I poured some saturated magnesium chloride solution into a glass of waterglass I was stirring with a chopstick.  I continued stirring for a couple of seconds more and suddenly the whole glass froze solid with the chopstick in it
12:58 < muurkha> not recently
12:59 < docl> the pure shaving foam just burns/disappears under the propane flame right away, but the lime/sodium silicate/foam mix didn't melt away really. just got really crumbly. I ended up with a piece that was a bit rubbery (maybe something like silicone rubber foam had formed?)
12:59 < muurkha> I was pretty impressed
12:59 < muurkha> you said you got an optical pyrometer or something?
13:00 < docl> ordered one, but it won't arrive for a while
13:00 < muurkha> I was wondering how hot the silicate foam gets before it crumblifies
13:00 < muurkha> silicone seems unlikely to be present
13:00 < docl> arrives tuesday
13:01 < muurkha> anyway the magnesium silicate gelation I mentioned above is an example of the kind of reaction that I was expecting from the slaked lime
13:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://junaxup.medium.com/egg-freezing-guide-a4c5d6adea6b
14:16 < docl> am making some more clay. instead of getting a container dirty I just used a wastebasket liner, which seems to work well enough and lets me mix it by hand
14:28 < docl> perlite aggregate with lime/Na silicate/foam has the same issue of it becoming powdery, at least with fresh mixed. going to see if it's any different after it sets. kind of fun watching the perlite soften and melt. still need to try it with clay and sand. also this was also only a few mL/L Na silicate, might be different at higher concentration etc.
14:30 < docl> the garbage bags I'm using for mixing are from costco, the kind of liner they use in office wastebaskets. since it's non stretchy I'm guessing it's HDPE
14:31 < muurkha> is it very loud?  HDPE bags are very loud
14:32 < muurkha> they rustle very loudly
14:32 < docl> yeah it makes noise when you crinkle it
14:32 < muurkha> yeah, you can't really crinkle LDPE
14:32 < muurkha> it might conceivably be something weird but probably not if it's sold as a garbage bag
14:33 < docl> I wonder if it's lye safe? didn't see any issues with the sodium silicate in the short term at least
14:33 < muurkha> what color does it glow when it gets crumbly?
14:33 < muurkha> HDPE is as lye-safe as anything short of polypropylene, teflon, or stainless I think
14:33 < docl> yellowish white under the flame? when it's cooling I see orange dots though
14:33 < docl> fair enough
14:34 < muurkha> yellowish white is probably close to 1000°?
14:34 < muurkha> you can consult blacksmith incandescence color charts
14:35 < docl> yeah the perlite surfaces seem to get around that by the time they start softening and deforming. more yellow than white I guess
14:36 < muurkha> the perlite melting tells you it's probably close to 1100°, though it's possible the alkaline lye is attacking it
14:36 < muurkha> by the way, waterglass comes in a range of molar ratios; those with higher Si:Na are less corrosive and basic and usually what people use
14:37 < muurkha> if Si:Na gets too high it stops being water-soluble though
14:37 < docl> lime is pretty thermally reflective as well, so I can believe it's getting that hot. the propane is hot enough to work glass. just a cheap $40 torch with no O2 enrichment
14:38 < muurkha> "thermally reflective" is not a thing
14:38 < muurkha> plain waterglass melts a lot lower.  in fact, dried waterglass softens enough to foam up before it even starts glowing
14:38 < docl> well it's optically reflective and at those temps you get a fair amount of optical spectra
14:39 < muurkha> you mean a fair amount of visible-spectrum light?
14:39 < docl> yes
14:40 < muurkha> so, yes, it does have lower emissivity in the visible than many other materials.  on the other hand, it also has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candoluminescence
14:41 < muurkha> I think
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15:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/tla/science.pdf
16:13 < Ashstar> I miss working with glass, such an unique material amorphous/liquid/solid
16:15 < Ashstar> I fell in love with it whn I was doing my lower division at a JC that had a glass kiln and glass blowers working all night. I would plonk myself on their soffa, break out my books n watch them blow glass, do magic
16:15 < Ashstar> they played loud rock
16:15 < Ashstar> so, I knew it was a warm cool place to cram
16:16 < Ashstar> my work with fiber optics taught me some of glasse's unique nature
16:17 < Ashstar> later on
16:17 < Ashstar> I might take a glass blowing class
16:18 < Ashstar> when I get time
16:20 < Ashstar> prince Rupert glass is interesting
16:21 < Ashstar> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt-zvsGvtqg
16:22 < docl> sure seems fun. part of my motivation for studying refractory cement and so on is I'd like to do some glassblowing
16:22 < Ashstar> it's under molecular tension has high shatter resistance
16:23 < Ashstar> nice
16:23 < Ashstar> me too
16:24 < Ashstar> I watched them do glass magic at the kiln many nights
16:25 < Ashstar> my professional involvement came from me working on a 3D fiber opic array
16:25 < Ashstar> optic
16:25 < Ashstar> came to hate , love, respect glass as a material
16:27 < Ashstar> they have a highly disordered amorphous structure. This gives them very different properties to other crystalline ceramics
16:28 < Ashstar> now, I would love to explore glassblowing as an art
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18:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Bioengineered uterine tissue supports pregnancy in a rat model" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27068301/
18:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://web.archive.org/web/20230708055608/https://www.crs.northwestern.edu/news/2023/dr.-mats-hellstr%C3%B6m-discusses-uterus-bioengineering-as-a-future-alternative-to-uterus-transplantation.html
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19:57 < Ashstar> what about collastrum L. bifidus
19:57 < Ashstar> Lactobacillus bifidus
19:58 < Ashstar> for post natal health
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20:54 < muurkha> docl: you ought to be able to do a fair bit of glassblowing with just vermiculite and a torch?
20:54 < muurkha> glass is indeed an amazing material, or family of materials
21:05 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ex vivo shark fetus https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10530027/
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 04 00:00:19 2024