--- Log opened Wed Jan 10 00:00:25 2024
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01:54 < hprmbridge> fodagut> No. Learning Lisp, Haskell, Forth, Go, and/or Rust will make you a better programmer. Lambda calculus is implicitly used in all of those (as well as the pi-calculus), but especially in Lisp. Learning the theory on its own in mathematical context won't really make you a better programmer though. You need to see how it is applied in context with map/reduce, fold, etc.
01:57 < hprmbridge> fodagut> bridgebot should translate "username: " as "@username " on the discord side
01:58 < fenn> it's not a simple message starting with @user, it's a reply to a message
01:58 < hprmbridge> fennfoot> @mark test
01:58 < hprmbridge> fennfoot> @fodagut test2
01:59 < hprmbridge> fennfoot> god what a hideous UX decision
02:00 < hprmbridge> fennfoot> i need special bot permissions to do @user style messages, which for some reason is @kanzure's job
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02:12 < muurkha> I would say "the λ-calculus is implicitly used in all of those, but especially in Haskell"
02:13 < muurkha> none of them use the π-calculus except in the sense that you can model any concurrent system in the π-calculus
02:14 < muurkha> Golang includes a CSP-like system, but the π-calculus isn't CSP
02:14 < muurkha> Lisp and Forth usually don't even have concurrency in the language at all
02:15 < muurkha> Haskell's most popular concurrency feature is STM, which is about as different from the π-calculus as a system of concurrency is capable of being
02:29 < fenn> i might have to look up the user ID number based on the username to do highlighting
02:30 < muurkha> fodagut: what were you saying "No" to?
02:33 < fenn> he was responding to "If I learn lambda calculus, will it make me a better programmer?"
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02:35 < fenn> fenn: test
02:36 < fenn> yeah i just have to look up the user ID each time
02:36 < fenn> ... however i do that
02:37 < muurkha> I think it's hard to know what will make you a better programmer
02:37 < muurkha> programming things you can barely program usually works
02:37 < muurkha> speaking of which, I'm going to iconify this window and program
02:39 < hprmbridge> fennfoot> @kanzure nevermind, i don't need any special permissions
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03:59 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> muurkha: I have mucked around with implementing pi calculus in Haskell it's a worthwhile exercise and ended up basically yielding a really stripped down erlang VM
04:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'd say learning the theory is defenitely worthwhile and once done can easily be applied to haskell and other languages, but you can go the other way round using a language with first class functions to learn theory. Tbh it's mostly a learning style thing about which order you learn things in
04:04 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> However I am very pro Haskell as tool to learn theory through programming exercises. As fairly advanced theoratical topics like tychnoff and double negation shift have good "proofs" in Haskell which gives a valuable computational perspective
04:04 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/msfp2010/
04:04 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> This is a very nice read
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04:57 < fenn> "@SECGov will have to investigate itself for market manipulation"
04:57 < fenn> too funny
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05:48 < hprmbridge> fodagut> This worked
05:50 < hprmbridge> fodagut> Need a meme of Lucy with a SEC hat holding a btc etf football for crypto Twitter Charlie Brown to kick.
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10:55 < hprmbridge> Eli> At some point I'm going to try to learn Mojo, which has some Rust style baked in. Unfortunately, Mojo is still too new and didn't run well in VSC.
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11:26 < muurkha> alonzoc: agreed
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13:39 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.sec.gov/files/rules/sro/nysearca/2024/34-99306.pdf
13:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.biotech.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Biotech-Commission-Dec2023-Report.pdf
14:45 < ike8> can you add a short description to your links?
14:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what? just read the urls.
14:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> the first one is a rulemaking by the SEC
14:52 < hprmbridge> kanzure> the second one is a PRC fanfic about biotech
14:52 < ike8> thanks
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16:37 < fenn> i think most people aren't aware that "insulin" is genetic engineering
16:39 < L29Ah> is "vitamin B12" genetic engineering?
16:40 < hprmbridge> bootstrap3141> Kind of if you’re injecting lots of it and it’s methocobalamin, but it’s not exactly what comes to mind when I hear that phrase.
16:41 < fenn> i dunno; how is B12 produced?
16:46 < fenn> "Industrial production of B12 is achieved through fermentation of selected microorganisms. Rhone-Poulenc improved yield via genetic engineering Pseudomonas denitrificans." it's not clear from that whether they actually use the engienered strain. presumably some do use it and some don't
16:49 < Ashstar> cyancobalamine
16:49 < Ashstar> B12
16:50 < Ashstar> co-enzyme for metabolic mitochondrial function
16:50 < L29Ah> Ashstar: Alex (a male) has 3 sisters. Each sister has 2 brothers. How many brothers does Alex have?
16:50 < fenn> lmao
16:51 < fenn> i've seen some interesting justifications for various answers
16:51 < Ashstar> depends, half sisters?
16:51 < Ashstar> step sisters
16:52 < Ashstar> if all are from same parents then 6
16:52 < fenn> fail
16:52 < Ashstar> why
16:52 < Ashstar> yo are ommittin datau
16:52 < fenn> if all are from same parents then the answer is 1
16:53 < Ashstar> 3 sisters, each with two brothers, yeah
16:53 < Ashstar> 1
16:54 < Ashstar> includes him
16:54 < Ashstar> wait
16:54 < fenn> anyway, the point is, you should try to contribute meaningfully to the conversation instead of just saying related words
16:55 < Ashstar> so, what about B12
16:55 < Ashstar> how is it made?
16:55 < fenn> i brought up insulin because it was in that "PRC fanfic" interim report by the national security commission on emerging biotech
16:56 < Ashstar> it is hard to synthesize
16:56 < L29Ah> i'm surprised sugar is so cheap yet it's not genetic engineering
16:56 < Ashstar> usually is purified
16:57 < fenn> sugar was displaced by corn syrup for most uses
16:57 < Ashstar> well, it has been made from recombinant for 30 years
16:57 < Ashstar> E coli
16:58 < L29Ah> not yet in europe it seems, but it certainly goes that way
16:58 < Ashstar> Insulin, Humalin
16:58 < Ashstar> why not
16:59 < Ashstar> seriously, all the Eurppean insuline is from porcine sources
16:59 < L29Ah> sugar i mean
16:59 < Ashstar> insulin
16:59 < fenn> he meant no corn syrup in europe
16:59 < Ashstar> oh
16:59 < L29Ah> yes
16:59 < Ashstar> all the maerial you see, all the trees, all is sugar
16:59 < Ashstar> even Chitin is a polysacharide
17:00 < Ashstar> sucrose
17:00 < Ashstar> is a disacharide
17:01 < Ashstar> it is huge market, it is also insane how these soda companies, like Coca Cola are affecting rural populations
17:01 < Ashstar> diabetes
17:01 < Ashstar> is rampant in Latin America
17:02 < Ashstar> I remember hicking miles to this Mextec Indian village with no roads
17:02 < Ashstar> there was a big sign: "Tome Coca Cola"
17:03 < fenn> anna's archive is nearing the 100 million papers mark
17:03 < Ashstar> these people would strap coke to their mules, backs and give it to their infants
17:04 < Ashstar> corn syrup is cheap as shit to produce
17:05 < Ashstar> it is , I feel disgusting, these sugar companies know what they are doing
17:05 < L29Ah> i hope it's literal coke, not coca cola
17:05 < Ashstar> while destroying peoples metabolic health
17:06 < Ashstar> CocaCola
17:06 < Ashstar> this was Oaxaca, Mexico
17:06 < Ashstar> not a lot of cocaine grown there
17:06 < Ashstar> mushrooms, yeah
17:07 < Ashstar> villages around Juatla de Jimenez
17:07 < Ashstar> or Huatla de Jimenez
17:08 < Ashstar> Oaxaca
17:08 < Ashstar> famous for their mushrooms
17:08 < Ashstar> rituals
17:08 < fenn> "research into the metabolic engineering of vitamin B12 production is still in its infancy.
17:08 < fenn> (in 2017)
17:09 < Ashstar> yeah, from what I understand it is a hard synthesis
17:10 < Ashstar> yet they are making yeasts that produce morphine precursor
17:11 < fenn> i mean there are genetically engineered strains that exist and are used, but really optimizing the whole system for B12 production hasn't been done yet
17:11 < fenn> i'm failing to find an overview of B12 industrial production
17:13 < fenn> presumably one could look up each strain in table 1 and figure out if they're genetically engineered or not https://www.mdpi.com/2306-5354/9/8/365
17:13 < fenn> but i don't care that much
17:15 < fenn> "Method for promoting P. denitrificans to generate vitamin B12" sounds like engineering, but it's not that much better yield than the others
17:35 < Ashstar> the way we did optimization is with a bioreactor, you look at all the variables, O2, pH, temp. Feed cycle, of course strain selection
17:36 < Ashstar> media studies
17:37 < Ashstar> this was before and still done, even if you get a recombinant
17:38 < Ashstar> do you have pernicious anemia, fenn?
17:39 < Ashstar> that is related to B12 deficiency
18:08 < fenn> the point was that there's a lot of hysteria around "GMO" ooo scary big scary tech coming to get you children. nobody thinks that auntie bessy is still alive because of genetic engineering
18:09 < fenn> insulin is "a human right" not "genetic engineering" in the public consciousness
18:13 < Ashstar> yes
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18:46 < Ashstar> agree
18:48 < fenn> "If builders built buildings the way programmers write programs, you'd be able to buy a nice little colonial split-level at Babbages for $34.95." -- Peter da Silva and Karl Lehenbauer
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19:11 < Ashstar> if you want to do some P. denitrificans work, I got a 10 liter bioreactor I am selling
19:11 < Ashstar> fenn
19:11 < fenn> as usual you completely missed the point
19:11 < Ashstar> only $6500
19:12 < Ashstar> I got it
19:12 < Ashstar> just messing w you, actually I in the middle of listing this fermenter
19:12 < fenn> it sounds like a lot of money for a bucket
19:12 < Ashstar> uhm
19:13 < Ashstar> it isnt a bbucket, all the variables are controlled
19:13 < Ashstar> temp, O2, agitation rate, pH
19:14 < Ashstar> nutrient feed 
19:14 < Ashstar> you are thinking of booze
19:14 < Ashstar> you can just let it sit, ferment
19:15 < Ashstar> it's anaerobe
19:16 < Ashstar> actually, there is a vinegar production plant that might buy it
19:16 < Ashstar> or, a start up biotech
19:17 < Ashstar> I hope
19:18 < Ashstar> this is a smaller version: https://www.bonanza.com/listings/B-Braun-Biostat-B-Fermenter-Bioreactor-Controller-8840334-with-Accessories/1444864218?goog_pla=1&gpid=&keyword=&goog_pla=1&pos=&ad_type=pla&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0NKflpvUgwMVPDetBh16mASqEAQYBCABEgJHrPD_BwE
19:20 < fenn> what's in the big box?
19:20 < Ashstar> controller
19:20 < fenn> those must be peltier pumps on the front
19:20 < Ashstar> yup
19:21 < fenn> is this like the stereo systems from the 1990s that were 95% empty space, just so it wouldn't look weird on your stack of VCR and amplifier stuff
19:21 < Ashstar> lol
19:22 < fenn> i would rather have everything just sit on top of the culture vessel
19:22 < Ashstar> I used to work with a bank of them, doing some nasty microbial media optimization
19:22 < Ashstar> Staph aureus
19:23 < Ashstar> the bad stap
19:23 < fenn> making bioweapons eh
19:23 < Ashstar> staphlococcus
19:23 < Ashstar> na, one of the ways Staph is so insidious, is that it is able to grab antibodies
19:24 < Ashstar> by the non business end, that way, it slips through your immune responce
19:24 < fenn> uh. peristaltic pumps. no idea why i said peltier
19:24 < Ashstar> looks like your own stuff
19:24 < Ashstar> peristalsis
19:25 < Ashstar> s, posssitive displacement
19:25 < Ashstar> massages the fluid along 
19:26 < Ashstar> or whatever, nutrients, buffer
19:26 < Ashstar> without contact
19:27 < Ashstar> here is one, smaller vessel but two that goes for $35k
19:27 < Ashstar> https://www.ebay.com/itm/325566570943?hash=item4bcd47a1bf:g:oLwAAOSwxVtkCMeW&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8K1oQEfoR3MJ6NlX69kA70WlrAHJujLacVX%2BQXvZpSkUMWG9m57%2Bp6w2lST5HW1ULGrOtwSZJDCGu%2FGXg2WnrwmhEzgP%2F8JxMUb8L9Wt4eAqeR9%2FZYMJuK1gFSXfmFw2gJxIiRc1LyREbKeF5BfI7eRuKsp99OokFzUJDLjlsD8zbx%2BuecEuBItuvT%2BWtDZH37laviakM%2BCnhqDCJCDIE5U6WMVptHdr%2FOGy1riFdHvpCJXkDyfM2%2B6LrtmK%2BBmOZPhnAnO7QKAl
19:27 < Ashstar> oVkwi8yqxmMN4LPkvQ173Q1%2BEmK6mOWlwyvdDv5OWfAwKQlH8WMRmQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9awvuOeYw
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19:28 < Ashstar> these are tools for maxing out growth conditions
19:28 < Ashstar> protein production
19:29 < Ashstar> every serious biotech lab start up have
19:30 < Ashstar> them, before they go large scale, they have to get it optomized
19:30 < fenn> i just don't understand why a dozen motors, a big glass jar, and some standard industrial control electronics costs tens of thousands of dollars
19:31 < Ashstar> maybe one can piece it together, the glass vessel alone cost thousands
19:32 < Ashstar> it has to be autoclavable
19:32 < fenn> no it doesn't
19:32 < Ashstar> pyrex
19:32 < Ashstar> some have in situ sterilization
19:32 < fenn> also autoclavable != pyrex
19:33 < Ashstar> but the vessels come off, they get autoclaved
19:33 < fenn> also a pyrex baking dish with about the same quantity of glass is $30
19:33 < Ashstar> you always start with sterility
19:33 < Ashstar> baseline
19:34 < Ashstar> lol
19:34 < Ashstar> dude, you have not gone to a scientific glassware company
19:34 < Ashstar> they charge
19:35 < Ashstar> lots
19:35 < fenn> commodity lab glassware is pretty cheap compared to most business-to-business goods
19:36 < fenn> i can see how custom glassware would be expensive
19:37 < fenn> but if they're making a whole product line out of this, it's not "custom" anymore
19:37 < fenn> this stuff should all be standardized interfaces anyway
19:37 < fenn> mason jar or GTFO
19:38 < Ashstar> ok
19:38 < Ashstar> it is what it is
19:39 < Ashstar> the bioreactor I am selling comes from Germany
19:39 < Ashstar> B. braun
19:39 < Ashstar> they do not seel their stuff cheap
19:39 < fenn> "photobioreactor array" https://bpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/sites.gatech.edu/dist/5/1050/files/2021/11/Bioreactors-1.jpg
19:40 < Ashstar> sell
19:40 < Ashstar> yea
19:41 < Ashstar> that is a different system, Algi
19:41 < Ashstar> there are a lot of different systems
19:42 < muurkha> fenn: I like the Peter da Silva and Karl Lehenbauer quote.  I don't think I've seen it before
19:42 < Ashstar> closed loop, beed bed reactors
19:42 < Ashstar> fixed matrix
19:43 < Ashstar> fermentations
19:43 < fenn> muurkha: the rest of the quote: "If programmers wrote programs the way builders build buildings, we'd still be using autocoder and running compile decks."
19:44 < muurkha> fenn: a US "Pyrex" baking dish isn't made of pyrex; it's a line extension fraud.  corning sold the brand to a company that sells tempered glass ovenware under that name.  every year a few of them explode in people's faces as they're taking it out of the oven
19:44 < fenn> yes i was just complaining about this yesterday
19:44 < muurkha> but I still don't think real Pyrex baking dishes (still sold in Europe) cost thousands of dollars
19:44 < fenn> corning made fake pyrex dishes in the 1990s before selling the brand
19:44 < muurkha> oh, sorry, I had forgotten that
19:45 < muurkha> Ashstar: what's a beed bed reactor?
19:45 < Ashstar> fixed beeds with organism that processes the media, gives you product
19:46 < Ashstar> the microbe is anchored
19:46 < muurkha> beads?
19:46 < Ashstar> to these beeds
19:46 < Ashstar> yes
19:46 < fenn> like the fish tank filters? "bioballs"
19:46 < Ashstar> sorry, I grew up abroad
19:46 < Ashstar> still have issues w y spelling
19:47 < Ashstar> yes, like bioballs
19:47 < Ashstar> they have the organim fixed to a matrix
19:47 < Ashstar> so themedia can flow through, they pump out whatever is desired
19:48 < Ashstar> the microbe pumps out or excretes
19:48 < Ashstar> as it is fed
19:48 < Ashstar> it is a cool system
19:49 < Ashstar> if you got the right organism
19:50 < Ashstar> a lot of the problem with microbial growth, is that they also excrete their shit
19:50 < Ashstar> so, you get a limit to their growth or product production
19:51 < Ashstar> just like booze, the limit is sugar, plus the yeast waste
19:52 < Ashstar> booze is a batch process
19:52 < Ashstar> the organism is in situ, without aeration but they also poison themselves
19:54 < Ashstar> we are doing some interesting stuff, what limits, the fixed fed microbe will just be working hard
19:54 < Ashstar> without poisoning itself
19:54 < fenn> for booze, the waste is the product
19:54 < Ashstar> yes
19:54 < Ashstar> also limit
19:55 < Ashstar> yeast do not do well above 15%
19:55 < Ashstar> alcohol
19:55 < Ashstar> their lees
19:55 < Ashstar> also 
19:56 < Ashstar> once the sugar is eaten, they stop
19:56 < Ashstar> which is why, we measure the sugar of grapes
19:57 < Ashstar> approximately 45% of the sugar level = alcohol
19:57 < muurkha> I have a mint plant planted in inadequately composted compost
19:57 < Ashstar> level'
19:57 < muurkha> which has turned into what appears to be a solid block of some kind of mycelium
19:58 < muurkha> the mint is suffering some slight chlorosis but seems to be doing fine otherwise
19:58 < Ashstar> I love mycellium
19:58 < muurkha> so either the fungus will nourish and nurture the mint or it will devour it
19:58 < Ashstar> well, cool stuff, we used it to measure bioogical clock
19:58 < muurkha> I suspect there isn't much I can do to stop it
19:59 < muurkha> yeah?  what did you do?
19:59 < Ashstar> no
19:59 < Ashstar> they will conquer all after death
19:59 < Ashstar> tg
19:59 < Ashstar> they decompose all
19:59 < muurkha> the mint isn't dead, it's alive, though perhaps not growing quite so rapidly as it was a week ago, or as its sister plant in a different soil is
20:00 < Ashstar> muurkha, as a graduate student, I studied Chronobiology
20:00 < Ashstar> we used a fungi
20:00 < Ashstar> Neurosprra crassa
20:00 < Ashstar> which throws up spores
20:00 < Ashstar> every 21.7 hours
20:01 < Ashstar> it is a well mapped organism, too
20:01 < muurkha> aha, so you could measure the biochemical correlates of this circadian rhythm?
20:01 < muurkha> what did you learn?
20:01 < Ashstar> yup
20:01 < Ashstar> that was the idea
20:01 < Ashstar> oh well, some stuff
20:01 < Ashstar> wrote my dissertation
20:02 < muurkha> what were the most important findings?
20:02 < Ashstar> on Ca++ ion channel regulation
20:02 < Ashstar> clock 
20:02 < Ashstar> function
20:03 < muurkha> Ca⁺⁺ ion channel regulators played some kind of key role in the fungus's time-keeping?
20:03 < Ashstar> our clock is truly amazing thing that is tied to our genes, stuff that has at its core, the very first evolution of life
20:03 < Ashstar> on this planet
20:04 < Ashstar> all life has it
20:04 < Ashstar> I just tried to unravel a very small piece of it
20:05 < Ashstar> using this organism
20:05 < muurkha> hey, is citeseerx broken for everyone or just me?  https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/doc_view/pid/c55f9d599de4da2c3f40def3f965b6832acd0760
20:06 < Ashstar> yes to your previous question
20:06 < Ashstar> Ca is part of the key
20:06 < muurkha> what role?
20:07 < Ashstar> how the clock works, how signaling of cellular processes work
20:07 < Ashstar> it is part of  vst area of research
20:07 < muurkha> what role does Ca⁺⁺ play in how the clock works, how signaling of cellular processes works?
20:07 < muurkha> specifically the problem I'm seeing is that the citeseerx page linked above (for example) loads fine, but the PDF doesn't
20:09 < Ashstar> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8262947/
20:10 < Ashstar> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819050/
20:10 < muurkha> I thought you said you were at Stanford.  were you at Dartmouth instead?  
20:10 < Ashstar> yes
20:11 < Ashstar> it was big there
20:11 < Ashstar> this organism
20:11 < muurkha> or were you at Texas A&M instead?
20:11 < Ashstar> never
20:11 < muurkha> because the second paper you linked is from TAMU
20:11 < Ashstar> I grabbed some from my grab bag
20:12 < Ashstar> let me get some ones, our U dd
20:15 < Ashstar> well, I really did not wished to get doxed
20:15 < Ashstar> that was in PM
20:16 < Ashstar> let me get you some of Lewis research
20:16 < Ashstar> rather not go for our lab
20:16 < Ashstar> https://med.stanford.edu/lewislab.html'
20:17 < Ashstar> Neurospora crassa was big at the Biology dept
20:18 < fenn> muurkha: citeseerx doesn't give me the pdf
20:19 < Ashstar> my friend former advisor, https://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/3/4/559.short
20:19 < Ashstar> Charly Yanofsky
20:20 < Ashstar> I bought his 150 liter fermenter
20:20 < Ashstar> miss the guy
20:21 < Ashstar> he was a good friend, mentor
20:21 < Ashstar> RIP
20:21 < Ashstar> shit
20:22 < Ashstar> that is a trip to a maudlin state
20:22 < Ashstar> I wish I had gotten him to write some leters, he died
20:25 < Ashstar> Charles Charley” Yanofsky, the Dr. Morris Herzstein Professor of Biology, Emeritus at Stanford University, was one of the world's most influential geneticists. Put simply, everything scientists now know about genetics rests on his initial discoveries about the relationship between DNA and proteins
20:25 < Ashstar> he received some medal from the president for his work
20:27 < Ashstar> agh, so many people that have been influential, are gone
20:29 < Ashstar> there is a trade off in life, as we grow older, we gain experience, friends that influence us, then time goes on, they start dying, soon we too
20:29 < Ashstar> pass
20:34 < Ashstar> ug
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20:58 < muurkha> fenn: thanks for the help
20:58 < muurkha> Ashstar: oh no, I'm sorry to hear it :(
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 11 00:00:25 2024