--- Log opened Fri Jan 19 00:00:33 2024
00:23 < muurkha> superkuh: thank goodness!
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02:50 < hprmbridge> fodagut> L29Ah: “natural causes” is a misnomer. In medicine & law it basically means he wasn't murdered, didn't die from an accident, etc.
02:50 < hprmbridge> fodagut> It's not actually a cause of death.
02:51 < hprmbridge> fodagut> There's basically no reputable and trustworthy cryonics organizations, which is ridiculous.
02:53 < L29Ah> fodagut: does it basically mean that "the person died and we didn't investigate why because we don't give a fuck"?
02:54 < L29Ah> i would expect more fucks to be given to the oldest people on the planet
02:54 < hprmbridge> fodagut> No, there's a separate field for the coronor to put what actually caused the death.
02:55 < hprmbridge> fodagut> As I said, a major misnomer.
02:56 < hprmbridge> fodagut> There are two fields in the death certificate: "cause of death" and "manner of death"; "natural causes" is an answer to the 2nd one
02:57 < hprmbridge> fodagut> Let's say somebody got stabbed and died from their wounds. The coronor might write "Manner of Death: Homicide" and "Cause of Death: Loss of blood due to arterial wound."
02:58 < hprmbridge> fodagut> If you die from pancreatic cancer, on the other hand, the coronor will write "Manner of Death: Natural causes." and "Cause of Death: liver failure resulting from pancreatic cancer" or something like that.
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04:37 < fenn> so that my shopping research effort might be useful to others, this is the best vitamin D deal i found, and it's a known brand https://www.amazon.com/Carlyle-Vitamin-Softgels-Promotes-Supplement/dp/B07GRBQY5B ~$10 for 400x 10kIU softgels
04:47 < L29Ah> fenn: i use https://www.vitabay.de/products/vitamin-d3-liquid-10-000-ie-depot-vegane-tropfen-nur-eine-portion-10-tage?_pos=14&_sid=5ca9bc0e7&_ss=r
04:47 < L29Ah> they used to sell 50ml version that is an even better deal
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05:37 < fenn> L29Ah: i like the liquid dropper format but if my calculations are correct the carlyle capsules have 8x the total quantity of vitamin d in the bottle (depending on the volume of "a drop" which is uncertain for some random viscous liquid. it also says Cholecalciferol (pflanzlich) (8%) which is clearly not right
05:40 < fenn> oh wait each drop is 10k IU, nevermind it's about the same
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05:50 < fenn> 8% by weight would mean 100k IU per drop
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08:28 < hprmbridge> jay_dugger> Thank you, fenn.
08:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Ashstar I bought a SEM once, got a TEM for free
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10:25 < hprmbridge> Eli> my understanding is that you're supposed to combine vitamin d with vitamin k
10:25 < hprmbridge> Eli> thats why they have the d3 k2 combo supplements
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10:48 < jrayhawk> vitamin d balances with retinoids for immune function ( https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=vitamin-d+retinoid+heterodimer ) and calcium management, menatetrenone is also needed for a bunch of the calcium management functions of both
10:49 < jrayhawk> typical industrialized lifestyles suffer from insufficiencies of all three
10:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://twitter.com/powerfultakes/status/1748414744556433584
10:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> we have an operative in the audience there
10:57 < L29Ah> i supplement all three but see no need to take them simultaneously
10:57 < jrayhawk> yeah, they're fat soluable, so you have a huge capacitor for all three in the form of adipose tissue
10:57 < L29Ah> vit a and d twice a week, vit k daily
10:58 < L29Ah> mostly dictated by the form i got them in
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14:53 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Fatpacitor
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15:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.ycombinator.com/launches/KAl-elodin-ci-cd-for-aerospace
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16:08 < hprmbridge> Eli> this is what I take everyday. I have a vitamin d receptor mutation so I need more than usual. Also, skin tends to be lighter in northern climates so our a priori bias is that vit d is very important and hard to OD on. Also, I keep it in the freezer to prevent oil rancidity: https://www.amazon.com/Sunshine-Vitamin-Softgels-Strength-Supplements/dp/B08FXX6WSZ
16:12 < hprmbridge> Eli> For vit A, I would just up beta carotene, unless you have a werid mutation. The body has a highly conserved beta carotene pathway that allows storage of beta carotene in fat in your body to convert to vit a as needed. The fatpacitor. Unless you smoke or have been exposed to asbestos or have had cancer previously, having a huge storage of beta carotene is likely harmless. Your body will rate limit
16:12 < hprmbridge> Eli> it's conversion into vit A on its own.
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16:20 < L29Ah> Eli: vit A just turned out much cheaper than carotene, and still easy enough to avoid overdose
16:26 < hprmbridge> Eli> Tracks with my priors. My Terence Tao proposal doesn't seem terrible.
16:26 < hprmbridge> Eli>
16:26 < hprmbridge> Eli> I also like the slide on removing the efficacy requirements from the FDA. Need to get some economists to run the data on FDA saving lives due to efficacy standards vs. condemning lives to death due to less treatments approved.
16:26 < hprmbridge> Eli>
16:26 < hprmbridge> Eli> Another proposal I would make would be to allow people to write some of their own prescriptions. For example, why do I have to see an optometrist every year in Texas to update my script that hasn't changed when other states only do it five years or even longer? Why should someone who's been on the same meds for 20 years have to pay $800 a year to a doc who gatekeeps their lifesaving drugs from
16:26 < hprmbridge> Eli> them? Bizarre.
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16:29 < L29Ah> do you really have to see an optometrist to be able to order glasses?
16:29 < hprmbridge> Eli> I suppose. Beta carotene is essentially impossible to OD on and the body tends to know how much to convert to Vit A optimally for optimal levels.
16:30 < hprmbridge> Eli> In texas? Yes. You cannot walk into a Warby Parkers and order something without a script from an optometrist within the last 365 days.
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16:31 < hprmbridge> Eli> In other states it varies. Somehow, there doesn't seem to be a massive increase in deaths in those other states.
16:31 < L29Ah> omg
16:31  * L29Ah recommends https://www.zennioptical.com
16:32 < jrayhawk> "highly conserved" is horseshit, https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs7501331 https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs6564851
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16:34 < hprmbridge> Eli> thers multiple pathways to convert beta carotene to vit A, likely due to how important it is.
16:34 < jrayhawk> and yet, there is extremely high variability in human studies.
16:35 < jrayhawk> as someone who gets autoimmune diseases without retinoids, i am highly annoyed about vegeterians and the USDA constantly lying about this
16:36 < hprmbridge> Eli> ```For vit A, I would just up beta carotene, unless you have a werid mutation.``` -- Me
16:36 < hprmbridge> Eli> relax
16:36 < jrayhawk> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22113863/ "However, β-carotene absorption and conversion into retinal is extremely variable among individuals, with proportions of low responders to dietary β-carotene as high as 45%."
16:37 < hprmbridge> Eli> ```A highly conserved sequence is one that has remained relatively unchanged far back up the phylogenetic tree, and hence far back in geological time.```
16:37 < hprmbridge> Eli> the usefulness of carotenoids is seen in everything from fish to birds to mammals.
16:38 < jrayhawk> That depends on how high up they are on the food chain.
16:38 < hprmbridge> Eli> despite BCO1 and BCO2 mutations that result in variability of vit A conversion
16:43 < hprmbridge> Eli> Multiple pathways conserved across a large number of organisms. In fact, the chicken that we normally envision in our mind has yellow legs because of the mutation. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1198065242790432808/image.png?ex=65bd8c34&is=65ab1734&hm=3f53a8ed6545271509bee6eb6171f29bb49a23d4eecaab11abfedb1317187497&
16:45 < Ashstar> too much carotene can cause a yellowing of the skin, a conditon Carotenemia. It is a condition characterized by yellow-orange discoloration of the skin usually secondary to excessive ingestion of foods rich in carotene.
16:46 < Ashstar> I had that when I ate too many mangoes
16:46 < jrayhawk> i am sure chickens will be very satisfied with your advice on supplementation strategy
16:47 < hprmbridge> Eli> The chicken industry has been supplementing their birds with carotenoids for decades. The birds with high carotenoid levels are considered more attractive and get more action. And their yolks are considered better looking by consumers
16:47 < docl> I'm supplementing A now. planning on upping the dose to 30mg/day to see if it cures my acne
16:47 < Ashstar> if you are giving chickens advice, perhaps it is time to seek medical help
16:48 < hprmbridge> Eli> Depends on whether you are a chicken producer.
16:49 < jrayhawk> https://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/chicken.jpg
16:52 < docl> apparently isotretinoin (accutane) is close enough cousin to vitamin A that the symptoms and risks are roughly identical. the main difference is that vitamin A isn't as aggressively regulated
16:53 < jrayhawk> hpervitaminosis A studies are done using supraphysiologic dosages of synthetic water-soluable retinoids or directly injected retinoids without regards to competitive disinhibition via vitamin-d deficiency
16:53 < hprmbridge> Eli> is this from the anormaldayinrussia subreddit?
16:54 < L29Ah> https://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/100_2536.JPG nice hdd cooling
16:55 < jrayhawk> you have to screw up multiple things in order to induce hypervitaminosis A via dietary fat-soluable retinoids
16:57 < hprmbridge> bootstrap3141> @docl any reason for not just getting accutane? It’s a bit of a pain in the US but it works super well.
17:01 < hprmbridge> Eli> im certainly not going to give dietary advice because it results in religious debates rather than science. For many people, it makes sense to me that the body is going to convert the optimal amount of beta carotene to vit a due to evolutionary necessity. I care less about hypervitaminosis than I care about optimal levels of vitamins and minerals. This is not medical advice. Every person is
17:01 < hprmbridge> Eli> different. Please don't send me a letter bomb.
17:03 < jrayhawk> Please don't use the words "highly conserved pathway" and "weird mutation" in this context and I won't be forced to quote directly contradictory studies at you.
17:05 < hprmbridge> Eli> By weird mutation, I simple meant uncommon. By highly conserved, I meant seen far up the evolutionary tree. Please correct me if I'm wrong
17:05 < jrayhawk> oh, is 45% not common enough?
17:05 < docl> I went on it for a month, discontinued when I caught covid. have moved since then so I don't have a dermatologist. anyway it's enough of a pain and expensive enough that I don't see a reason not to just use vitamin A if it's going to do the same exact thing
17:09 < hprmbridge> Eli> Most people in developed countries don't experience blindness due to vit A issues. Whereas up to 500,000 children a year in other countries die due to lack of Vitamin A. That's the background context
17:09 < hprmbridge> Eli> And here are all the things that affect conversion to Vit A, so BCO1 and BCO2 mutations are not the only factor https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1198071843224035328/image.png?ex=65bd925a&is=65ab1d5a&hm=fc5b3fe9cc8302912c843ab0a66428181df397df697dedae26f8b8da1baf0834&
17:11 < hprmbridge> Eli> Again, not attacking you.
17:12 < jrayhawk> this chart doesn't even make sense as applied to this conversation
17:14 < jrayhawk> lipid absorption and transport is shared between beta carotene and retinoids, inflammation is a major retinoid sink, etc.
17:14 < hprmbridge> Eli> There's a large number of variables that affect conversion to Vit A. Not just beta carotene. I've personally measured my blood levels of beta carotene and vitamin a conversion over time and correlated it to skin measurements. I've also created a formulation of carotenoids to sell in the market. This is a hobby of mine. And I have some experience in this subject. Just relax a bit.
17:16 < hprmbridge> Eli> I'm actually looking to raise money for a human trial with the University of Nottingham with one of the leading researchers on conversion resulting in skin color changes. So, feel free to donate, or keep criticizing me.
17:16 < jrayhawk> it's a deal
17:16 < hprmbridge> Eli> up to you
17:28 < jrayhawk> docl: yeah, i agree with your position that accutane is inanely expensive. Similar to e.g. deplin or lovaza, you're buying an essential nutrient at two orders of magnitude higher cost for the privilege of externalizing moral accountability onto a diffuse bureaucracy.
17:33 < jrayhawk> that said, blasting the immune system with a huge imbalance of myeloid differentiation factors may radically alter the adaptive immune system in poorly controlled ways that a desperate person might find appealing
17:33 < Ashstar> jrayhawk, I grew up with people who were into various diets at a health spa. For a short while, I ate a lot of fruit, at 16. Mangoes were a big part of my diet at the time. It did cause me to get Carotonemia
17:34 < jrayhawk> i actually never looked up if that causes any real problems besides making you look funny
17:35 < Ashstar> it was benign, but I am glad I stopped
17:35 < Ashstar> since then I have seen people who fasted on carot juice turn yellow
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17:36 < Ashstar> it's relatively harmless, it is weird, tho
17:40 < hprmbridge> Eli> There have been huge studies on beta carotene. Like 20,000 people. It's not something to take if yoou smoke or been exposed to asbestos or have had cancer. Otherwise seems to have no impact whatsoever.
17:40 < hprmbridge> Eli> The color is seen as an evolutionary marker of fitness in many animals across the animal kingdom
17:40 < hprmbridge> Eli> and appears to be the same in humans. Although only at an appropriate dose response
17:42 < hprmbridge> Eli> heres a good overview: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.00392/full
17:55 < jrayhawk> worth mentioning that, in the training distribution for the gradient descent system of genetics, retinoids could not be consumed without commensurate associated carotinoids also being consumed, so the above fitness measure remained a reasonable proxy measure of nutritional status even for the 45% of us that sucked at conversion (and now suffers from mesa-misalignment in both sensitivity and 
17:55 < jrayhawk> specificty due to chemical engineering. see: pictures of the cast of Jersey Shore.)
17:56 < jrayhawk> the measure became the target
17:58 < docl> jrayhawk: is the immune system's turnover rate high enough that high-dose A tends to alter it substantially?
18:00 < docl> I mean, on like a 3-4 month timescale
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18:04 < jrayhawk> it's plausible, but it's not something i have looked into or thought about very hard
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18:06 < docl> hmm. does accutane treatment often do immune damage? or induce recovery from autoimmune disorders, etc?
18:06 < hprmbridge> Eli> My personal belief is that the beta carotene color is a reasonable proxy for parasite load. Which is one of the reasons it’s seen as attractive. It’s seen as more attractive across multiple ethnic groups, including Africans.
18:08 < hprmbridge> Eli> The colors due to carotenoids in other species also likely have a correlation to parasite load. Fish and birds get more action based on their colors
18:09 < docl> ah, I guess acne is technically an immune disorder. inflammation of the skin
18:10 < Ashstar> well
18:10 < Ashstar> there is that thought
18:10 < Ashstar> the us of antibiotics
18:10 < Ashstar> to treat skin acne
18:11 < Ashstar> is based on our largest organ, our skin, complexity, subaceous microbes
18:11 < jrayhawk> yeah, one of several factors
18:12 < jrayhawk> IGF-1 and blood flow are other big ones
18:12 < Ashstar> it is very complex, our cortisol levels play a role
18:12 < jrayhawk> or blood/lymphatic/interstitial flow
18:12 < Ashstar> Isulin Growth Factors
18:13 < Ashstar> are part of this
18:13 < Lando-SpacePimp> POOP?
18:13 < jrayhawk> a novel acne treatment
18:13 < Ashstar> yeah
18:13 < Ashstar> I used to work with IGF's
18:14 < Ashstar> it plays a big role
18:14 < Ashstar> also FGF
18:14 < Ashstar> Fibroblast Growth Factors
18:16 < Lando-SpacePimp> Ashstar, what about drinking castor oil?
18:16 < Ashstar> prost
18:20 < Ashstar> have at it
18:23 < Ashstar> sorry I mentioned this to you, I was 12 years old- fighting for my rights at this school on a ship on the Sea of Cortez that fed me lots of Seasame poridge
18:24 < Ashstar> told the headmaster that I would rather rink Castor oil than eat another bowl of this poridge
18:24 < Ashstar> drink
18:24 < Ashstar> he held me to it
18:25 < docl> .wik Castor_oil
18:25 < EmmyNoether> "Castor oil is a vegetable oil pressed from castor beans. / It is a colourless or pale yellow liquid with a distinct taste and odor." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_oil
18:25 < Ashstar> a truly shitty eperience
18:25 < docl> infamously used as a punishment
18:26 < Ashstar> yeah
18:27 < jrayhawk> docl:  https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=accutane+autoimmunity it's a mess of random observational stuff. new autoimmunity is less common than mucosal disorders and depression (maybe cytokine-induced? i don't see this studied).
18:30 < jrayhawk> but who knows; endpoint pre-registration and conflicts of interest within the incentives structure of research and regulation mean large RCTs don't look too closely at this sort of thing
18:31 < jrayhawk> a breadth of rare responses that add up to something substantial will fly under the radar
18:50 < docl> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11702930/ // Hyperostotic polyarthropathy in a rabbit--a suspected case of chronic hypervitaminosis A from a diet of carrots 
18:50 < docl> > Rabbits are unique in that they can convert 100% of dietary beta-carotene into retinol.
18:53 < docl> so I guess you can have that happen from beta carotine supplements if you're a rabbit
18:54 < jrayhawk> a vitamin-d deficient rabbit
18:54 < docl> er, carotene not carotine
18:55 < docl> hmm. yeah, I guess there's no vitamin D in carrots
18:56 < Ashstar> its a fat soluble Vit, that's what it shares
18:56 < jrayhawk> you should conceptualize hypervitaminosis A as vitamin D deficiency and hypervitaminosis D as vitamin A deficiency; they compete over the same receptors
18:57 < Ashstar> they do say that vit D to A should be a 1/4 ratio
18:57 < jrayhawk> well, some of the same receptors
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18:57 < docl> so more vitamin D protects you from vitamin in A overdose?
18:57 < jrayhawk> similar to e.g. zinc and copper
18:57 < Ashstar> yes
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18:57 < docl> but potentially reduces how effective it is
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18:58 < Ashstar> apparerently, having a 1/4 ratio of A to D is imprtant
18:58 < jrayhawk> heterodimerization within the cell is important enough to be considered a primery effect for almost any disease you care to treat
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19:00 < jrayhawk> e.g. you want both in order to be "effective"
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19:00 < docl> heterodimerization meaning the two vitamins are combining? why would it be 1/4 instead of 1:1 in that case
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19:00 < jrayhawk> they do other things as well
19:01 < jrayhawk> some calcium management diseases you might want to hit pretty hard imbalances for
19:02 < jrayhawk> e.g. retinoids reversing soft tissue calcification or vitamin-d reversing bone demineralization if either is life-threatening
19:03 < docl> do retinoids tend to dissolve kidney stones?
19:03 < jrayhawk> depends on the stone type and availability of menatetrenone
19:04 < jrayhawk> calcium stones yes, oxalate and uric acid stones probably not
19:07 < docl> I wonder if high D levels is known to interfere with isotretinoin treatment of acne, or if it is complementary
19:10 < Ashstar> as I mentioned, I grew up around people who were seriously interested in nutrition. There ws this famous holistic doctor that a friend of mine visited. She had ovarian cysts. She was to undergo surgery, He put her on 50,000 IU A to 12,000 D. Her cysts went away. Later on I mentioned this to another friend who was to have surgery for the same, she tried it, the cysts went away
19:10 < hprmbridge> Eli> There is also vitamin a in carrots https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170393/nutrients
19:11 < Ashstar> she was blown away
19:12 < Ashstar> it was something that another lady tried after this, her ovarian cysts dissapered
19:12 < docl> ok seems reasonable to assume it's more or less complementary for this purpose. also likely safer
19:16 < jrayhawk> as a first try, yeah. it is possible accutane is improving immune signaling for some (compensating for a micronutrient deficiency) and trashing signaling for others (imbalancing things with a supraphysiologic dose)
19:16 < Ashstar> all this sources of A and D were from, I believe, animal derived
19:17 < Ashstar> sources
19:18 < Ashstar> this was something that stuck with me, most MD's ge minimal exposure to nutrition, some have it as an elective course or two
19:18 < docl> https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/update-on-vitamins-a-and-d/ // Update on Vitamins A and D
19:19 < Ashstar> of course, we all take biochemistry
19:19 < docl> > Dr. Linday and her colleagues offer a suggestion: poultry studies suggest optimal A-to-D ratios between four and eight. Similarly, in her own studies showing that cod liver oil protects against upper respiratory tract infections, Linday supplied her patients with A-to-D ratios between five and eight.
19:20 < Ashstar> Mucousal membrane health
19:21 < jrayhawk> Ashstar: The structure of licensure turns medicine into a political contest. The same forces that get us Nixon and Hitler also shape Standard of Care.
19:22 < jrayhawk> Until vitamins get campaign budgets, they're screwed.
19:24 < Ashstar> lol
19:24 < Ashstar> yeah
19:25 < Ashstar> sadly
19:26 < Ashstar> I must admit, I saw a lot of nutty shit, diets, fasts growing up at the health spa but there where enough really amaing, unorthodox stuff that did work
19:27 < Ashstar> I do belive that we benefit from occasional caloric restrictions, such as a few days fast
19:27 < Ashstar> periodically
19:28 < Ashstar> a couple days of a scientifically done fast helps us clean up our system
19:29 < Ashstar> across the animal spectra, caloric restriction prolongs life
19:30 < jrayhawk> That's... not true.
19:30 < jrayhawk> That's not even consistent within rodents, let alone primates.
19:30 < Ashstar> uhum
19:30 < Ashstar> ok
19:32 < jrayhawk> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3476836/
19:32 < jrayhawk> Genetic Variation in the Murine Lifespan Response to Dietary Restriction: from Life Extension to Life Shortening
19:32 < Ashstar> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3014770/
19:33 < Ashstar> https://www.utsouthwestern.edu/newsroom/articles/year-2022/active-phase-calorie-restriction.html
19:34 < jrayhawk> from your citation: "In humans, data from controlled trials are lacking and of course no long-term prospective trials of CR have been conducted with survival being the primary end-point"
19:34 < Ashstar> https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/calorie-restricted-diet-may-slow-aging-healthy-adults-science-shows-rcna69562
19:35 < Ashstar> well, human lifespans make poor subjects for this study
19:35 < Ashstar> outside of annecdotal 
19:35 < Ashstar> there is little human data
19:36 < jrayhawk> and, additionally, it is almost inevitable that such research would norm on a highly pathological population for which restricting calorie intake involves restricting intake of immunologically unsafe, oxidatively unsafe, micronutrient deficient, and biounavailable garbage
19:36 < Ashstar> that is not what I am talking about
19:37 < jrayhawk> if you norm on pathology, you can make anything look pathological
19:37 < Ashstar> we are not dealing with chronic nutritional deprivation
19:37 < Ashstar> it is for those with adequate nutrition
19:37 < jrayhawk> i would assume we're dealing with people who are terrified of IGF-1
19:38 < Ashstar> with proper vitamins
19:38 < Ashstar> it helps the well fed, those who have good supplementation
19:39 < Ashstar> that is why I qualified this with " scientifically done"
19:39 < Ashstar> deprived nutrition 
19:39 < jrayhawk> well, let me know when the field grows up and starts trying to address the inconsistency instead of denying it exists
19:39 < Ashstar> is not what I am saying
19:41 < Ashstar> it is a short term - practice, with having good nutrition otherwise
19:42 < Ashstar> a short term, by that, I found a few days, occasionally 
19:42 < Ashstar> really helps
19:42 < jrayhawk> that would be fasting and not calorie restriction
19:43 < Ashstar> well, I wanted to not get too off the reservation
19:47 < docl> https://wiki.c2.com/?CalorieRestrictionWithAdequateNutrition
19:47 < docl> CRAN seems less popular in the 2020s than it was in the 1990s
19:48 < jrayhawk> Ward gave up on HTML? what has the world come to
19:59 < jrayhawk> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35948268 "Ward and I recently moved c2 off a server in a colo where it had lived for over a decade because the colo was closing." oh, i bet that was the facility diyhpl.us was at up until two months ago
20:00 < jrayhawk> https://kidneybone.com/c2/wiki/CalorieRestrictionWithAdequateNutrition less enshittified link
20:36 < docl> oh my. it's horrible even if you do use javascript... at first it looks like just a mobile friendly css version of the page, but then if you click anything it pops up an overlapping iframe
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21:15 < docl> https://github.com/WardCunningham/remodeling
21:18 < docl> apparently the story is that ward got sucked into the fediverse and it's now a fedwiki
21:31 < muurkha> no, fedwiki predates the fediverse by a lot
21:31 < muurkha> he was working on it already when I met him in, uh, 02005?
21:32 < muurkha> it's fundamentally a very good idea but I think it could be implemented better
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21:48 < docl> http://fed.wiki.org actually looks somewhat reasonable (if you're willing to use js). at least the page frames spawn to the right instead of overlapping
21:59 < hprmbridge> Eli> Why should our a priori bias be that
22:02 < hprmbridge> Eli> From a teleological perspective, the body should want to evolve to live longer during times of stress (low food levels) so that it can reproduce later in times of plenty (high food levels)
22:30 < Ashstar> that is tied to reproductive fitness
22:31 < Ashstar> as apposed to the need to pass on genes due to iminent death
22:32 < Ashstar> as found in plants, when environmental stress
22:32 < Ashstar> hits
22:33 < Ashstar> the inclusive fitness and mate selection drives the need for reproductive physical fitness in all other life
22:33 < muurkha> be what, Eli?
22:39 < Ashstar> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2021.786868/full
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23:29 < fenn> "women in the US are stockpiling abortion pills"
23:32 < fenn> i'd like to hear evidence for jonathan anomaly's claim "Best way to select for longevity now happens to be to select for intelligence." (paraphrased)
23:32 < fenn> and what's the mechanism
23:33 < fenn> like, what's the shape of the kapan-meier curve, is it curved up or down
23:33 < fenn> intelligence could just be allowing you to take full advantage of existing maximum limits on lifespan, not changing the maximum limits
23:36 < fenn> this pic is for muurkha https://nitter.net/pic/media/GEPw74JXUAAj4Jz.jpg
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23:42 < fenn> a 2-month pop-up city on the island of Roatán to make death optional. January 6 - March 1, 2024 https://www.vitalia.city/
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23:50 < fenn> for vitamin A + K2 i put chicken thighs in a crockpot with carrots
23:51 < fenn> the only calculations i did was on K2 though. it turned out that chicken fat was the cheapest source, excluding natto which i can't eat
23:58 < jrayhawk> Natto's not the bioavailable form anyway.
--- Log closed Sat Jan 20 00:00:34 2024