--- Log opened Sat Jan 20 00:00:34 2024
00:13 < jrayhawk> It's not as lipophillic as Mk4 so it winds up clustering in the interior where lipoprotein lipase can't access it.
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00:43 < muurkha> fenn: I appreciate the nitter
00:44 < muurkha> this photo is kind of freaky but I don't know how to interpret it
00:48 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Jrayhawk I hope you survived this year's winter-pocalypse well enough
00:49 < hprmbridge> nmz787> We got to sled many days, even as late as this evening
00:50 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I didn't see it, but there was an elk in the front yard today
00:50 < jrayhawk> walking on my sidewalk is harrowing
00:51 < jrayhawk> did you get any solid ice up there, or was it all fluffy snow?
00:51 < jrayhawk> the melting ice is good fun to drive on, though
00:51 < jrayhawk> it's like i have four times the horsepower and everything is in slow motion
00:57 < hprmbridge> nmz787> We had maybe a centimeter of ice Monday or Tuesday but I don't think I even attempted to walk outside that day. It was gone from the trees within a day. The driveway is still mostly white. Saturday there was a lot of HUGE popcorn (or larger) sized snowflakes
00:58 < fenn> muurkha: the other guy is some famous longevity researcher. presumably this means milei is supportive of his research
01:00 < fenn> jose cordeiro
01:00 < fenn> .t https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-28927-9
01:00 < EmmyNoether> The Death of Death: The Scientific Possibility of Physical Immortality and its Moral Defense | SpringerLink
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01:03 < fenn> ok maybe he's more of a kurzweil public speaker science popularizer type https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Luis_Cordeiro
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01:05 < fenn> heterodimerization just means the vitamins are binding to the vitamin receptor proteins, forming a heterodimer
01:12 < docl> oh, that makes more sense. I was picturing a dimer of two different vitamins
01:14 < fenn> a small world coincidence: vitamin D researcher (vitamindwiki.com) john cannell is vast.ai CEO jake cannell's father 
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01:19 < jrayhawk> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Vitamin-D-receptor-VDR-action-at-target-cells-Intracellular-calcitriol-1-25OH2D_fig2_351012803
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01:32 < muurkha> fenn: hmm
01:56 < fenn> you too can have your own copy of the c2 wiki for a mere 40 MB https://fennetic.net/mirrors/c2.com_cgi_20150104.txz
02:01 < fenn> what is so special about 7z that it takes 80 times longer to decompress a bunch of html files than tar xz?
02:14 < fenn> https://www.brow.sh/ text based browser with js, low rez images, video, and webgl
02:15 < fenn> browser thin client or something like that
02:15 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fenn, anomaly will be here in april and you can ask him yourself
02:16 < fenn> cool
02:16 < muurkha> good question, they both use LZMA, right?
02:16 < muurkha> maybe LZMA2?
02:17 < fenn> 7z supports a bunch of backends
02:20 < fenn> i don't know how to get detailed metadata on a 7z file, here is the original for comparison https://archive.org/download/c2.com-wiki_201501/c2.com_cgi_20150104.7z
02:25 < fenn> ward cunningham could have solved all his problems by providing dumps
02:25 < fenn> instead he did something really stupid that pissed off a lot of people, and is still clueless
02:31 < muurkha> Can't you get current dumps of any article from his Wiki?  I thought that was how federation worked
02:42 < fenn> from what i see the "federated" thing is just the wiki software, not the content from c2
02:42 < fenn> "Unfortunately, the reasons why C2 ultimately died have been obscured by a well-meaning process of pruning that I think is meant to remove the "bad stuff" and leave only the "good stuff" for posterity. This is a shame, because the truth really is instructive - a few very prolific, toxic, borderline delusional people started dominating the wiki to the extent that more reasonable contributors just
02:42 < fenn> moved on. The C2 community started with an assumption that everyone could be reasoned with, and tried to handle the situation kindly and rationally. It was amazing to see the damage a very small number of people - basically just two - could do to a whole community of hundreds of well-meaning but naive people."
02:43 < fenn> it would be good to have an archive of all the edits, but i don't know if that data was preserved
02:43 < fenn> certainly not in the html scrapes
02:46 < fenn> lol @ "this is literally the site that the word 'wiki' was invented to describe; it is the embodiment of the platonic essence of 'a wiki proper'"
03:02 < muurkha> the idea was that you could fork whatever Wiki you wanted
03:03 < muurkha> https://github.com/WardCunningham/Smallest-Federated-Wiki/tree/master/server/sinatra was the original implementation
03:03 < muurkha> "The server participates in a peer-to-peer exchange of page content and page metadata"
03:04 < muurkha> I'm trying to find the spec for how the exchange of page content is supposed to work
03:05 < muurkha> https://github.com/WardCunningham/Smallest-Federated-Wiki/tree/master/client explains: "A server offers direct restful read/write access to pages it owns and proxy access to pages held elsewhere in federated space. A page is owned if it was created with the server or has been cloned and edited such that it is believed to be the most authoritative copy of a page previously owned elsewhere. A server 
03:05 < docl> fed.wiki.org does not work well in browsh. it fails to scroll right as new panes are opened and doesn't scroll up and down
03:05 < muurkha> operates as a proxy to the rest of the federated wiki. In this role it reformats data and metadata providing a unified experience."
03:11 < muurkha> https://www.wired.com/2012/07/wiki-inventor/ explains the idea a bit
03:11 < muurkha> similar to what I described in https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00120.html
03:11 < muurkha> which was *after* I met Ward
03:15 < muurkha> http://fed.wiki.org/view/welcome-visitors/view/about-federated-wiki/about.fed.wiki/profligate-copying says:
03:15 < muurkha> "Pages forked from one site to another retain the same name and are hence forth referred to as twins. When browsing multiple sites, should a page viewed have twins in that scope, then the page is annotated with newer, older and same aged pages called out in the page headline."
03:16 < muurkha> and it looks like the way to get a dump of the profligate-copying page is http://about.fed.wiki/profligate-copying.json
03:16 < muurkha> but http://fed.wiki.org/profligate-copying.json doesn't work
03:19 < muurkha> Ward's first work on the federation approach from 01997 is http://fed.wiki.org/view/folk-memory
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03:36 < fenn> forking is trivial; offer database dumps and source code
03:36 < fenn> But there is one thing about the wiki that he regrets. “I always felt bad that I owned all those pages,” he says.
03:36 < fenn> so he never offered dumps. makes sense right
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03:37 < muurkha> to be clear, 'But there is one thing about the wiki that he regrets. “I always felt bad that I owned all those pages,” he says.' is a quote from the Wired article
03:37 < fenn> presumably an actual quote
03:38 < muurkha> it is an actual quote, yes, I just saw it when I reread the article just now
03:39 < muurkha> Wikipedia has always offered dumps and has almost never had viable forks, for the reasons I described in https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00120.html, which is why Ward wanted something more than just dumps
03:39 < fenn> communities don't fork
03:39 < muurkha> communities fork all the forking time
03:40 < muurkha> we have an entire lexicon of terms for it
03:40 < muurkha> but forking a data repository doesn't require forking the community around it
03:40 < fenn> it does
03:40 < muurkha> have you heard of Linux, fenn?
03:41 < fenn> unless it's some technical automated backup system that no users actually interact with
03:41 < fenn> please tell me about all the wondrous linux forks
03:41 < fenn> also how the same developer community participates in them
03:45 < fenn> i was always disappointed how little tumblr did with tags and likes, considering the enormous value they had
03:57 < fenn> wikipedia jealously guards their image data
03:57 < fenn> your wikipedia.git system would have been better, alas
03:58 < muurkha> literally every kernel developer has a separate Linux fork
03:59 < muurkha> that's why Git exists in the first place
03:59 < muurkha> because CVS didn't support that mode of working
04:00 < fenn> right, i read the tol post and i see where the disagreement comes from
04:00 < fenn> "linux" is a central attractor
04:01 < fenn> there may be patches and forks floating around, but until they're incorporated into the central canonical example (torvalds' linux) then they aren't considered "linux"
04:02 < fenn> if you say "linux does that" and point at an unmerged fork, people will look at you funny
04:03 < fenn> also these are little twigs, not really splitting the whole thing
04:03 < fenn> what were they doing with 10TB of disk in 2005?
04:09 < muurkha> images
04:09 < muurkha> oh, kernel.org?  dunno
04:11 < muurkha> what you are describing is that people do fork the Linux data repository all the time (and lots of those forks never get merged; if a single-board computer vendor tells you their board runs "Linux" they are very unlikely to mean Linus's tree or anything that will ever get merged into it)
04:11 < muurkha> without forking the community, so many of the forks do get merged, or at least cherry-picked
04:17  * L29Ah inserts natto into fenn's stockpile of empty capsules
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04:30 < fenn> L29Ah: it really does make me feel awful, not just the texture
04:31 < L29Ah> fenn: the taste perhaps?
04:32 < L29Ah> the natto i got in Moscow tastes like well-spoiled food to me, decided i won't eat it until i find a korean who verifies that this strain of natto tastes adequately for natto
04:34 < fenn> several hours after eating it i get very tired, feel weak and miserable
04:34 < fenn> it tastes like, i dunno, fancy cheese in a bad way
06:13 < fenn> muurkha: re your "trellis-coded" keyboard https://www.ebay.com/itm/195889889961
06:15 < muurkha> yup!  I think you posted a link to another similar thing recently?
06:16 < fenn> i just mentioned it
06:16 < fenn> the other thing: https://wiki.dfrobot.com/ADKey_Board_10Keys_SKU_DFR0792
06:17 < muurkha> yes, that is the other thing you mentioned
06:21 < muurkha> thanks!
06:22 < muurkha> so far nobody seems to be adding the capacitors for the second dimension
06:22 < fenn> i guess it only recognizes one key at a time though (the dfrobot one)
06:23 < fenn> one button is 0 ohms
06:25 < muurkha> ha, saved a resistor!
06:25 < muurkha> too bad about two-key rollover tho
06:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Reprogramming mechanism dissection and trophoblast replacement application in monkey somatic cell nuclear transfer" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-43985-7
06:40 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "In an open letter, the laureates demanded that lawmakers relax strict rules on genetic modification to embrace new techniques that target specific genes and edit their code. The technology could make crops more resistant to disease and more likely to survive extreme weather events" https://www.weplanet.org/ngtopenletter
06:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> suddenly they are okay with genetic engineering?
06:45 < fenn> no you don't understand it's "NGTs" which are good not "GMOs" which are bad~
06:46 < fenn> is a euphemism treadmill an exorcising machine?
06:54 < fenn> i wonder if these people realize that horizontal gene transfer occurs naturally in plants
06:56 < fenn> https://food.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023-09/gmo_biotech_ngt_proposal_2023-411_en.pdf "The proposal provides for a verification procedure for those NGT plants and products derived from them that could also occur naturally or be produced by conventional breeding"
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08:39 < fenn> i had some issues with clock line noise when driving a large number of shift registers from a single arduino pin, although it was spread out over a much longer distance than a keyboard
08:40 < fenn> easy enough to detect a bit shift from the previous state and reject it
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08:52 < fenn> "Lyra: A New Very Low-Bitrate Codec for Speech Compression" (3 kbps) would probably scale down to 1 kbps if needed
08:53 < L29Ah> is it better than codec2?
08:53 < L29Ah> that is kinda decipherable @300bps
08:54 < L29Ah> oh, 300bps was removed, 700bps then
08:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> why not just ASCII and then use a voice synthesizer
09:00 < L29Ah> kanzure: horrible latency, loss of non-literal information, inability to fit a decent synthesizer in a low power package
09:02 < fenn> that's basically what lyra does, but with more side channels
09:03 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyra_(codec)#History alright
09:03 < fenn> the squishy resonating larynx is not going to change every 40 ms so you can skip transmitting that
09:03 < muurkha> L29Ah: sorry to hear 300bps was removed from codec2!
09:04 < muurkha> fenn: is it possible your Arduino pin just wasn't sourcing enough current?
09:05 < fenn> yes, i had limited tooling (no scope)
09:06 < muurkha> me too but I have an excuse (no money)
09:06 < muurkha> though I don't have an excuse for having no money
09:06 < fenn> it also could have been contact resistance in the connectors
09:06 < fenn> nobody has any excuse for anything, it's existentialism
09:07 < fenn> i'm not sure why we didn't have an oscilloscope
09:17 < fenn> these codecs make use of probability density functions. you can save a lot by picking a different probability density function instead of trying to use the same one for every possible voice and accent and language
09:18 < fenn> also the low latency and fixed frame size are constraints that make everything more difficult
09:19 < fenn> might make everyone sound samey tho
09:21 < muurkha> can you?  that sounds like the kind of thing that's obviously possible in theory but often infeasible in practice
09:22 < muurkha> it would be pretty neat if you could play back a voice recording as someone saying the same thing a different accent by pasting it onto the end of a recording in that accent
09:22 < hprmbridge> bootstrap3141> Anyone know where I can find an injector pen compatible with Genotropin 12 cartridges? I’m fairly sure it’s a standard size but I am struggling to find the ones I had used in the past.
09:23 < fenn> muurkha: that's basically how you do accents in bark
09:24 < fenn> granted, an audio transformer is not a simple decoder
09:25 < fenn> also "voice cloning"
09:27 < muurkha> you could also save bandwidth by encoding according to a prior on mood changes
09:27 < muurkha> so if you start a phone call sounding angry, and then calm down, the codec will continue to decode your utterances as sounding angry, according to its internal model of your most likely emotional trajectory
09:27 < muurkha> or how it manifests in your voice anyway
09:29 < fenn> yeah and none of this needs to be retransmitted every 40 ms
09:30 < muurkha> also if you use a word that wasn't in the codec's training set, it gets rewritten to the closest valid word
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09:38 < fenn> encodec sounds very good at 2 kbps (on music)
09:39 < fenn> (warning: loud) https://ai.honu.io/papers/encodec/final.mp4
09:40 < fenn> "target bandwidth (default is 6 kbps, can be either 1.5, 3, 6, 12 or 24)"
09:40 < fenn> of course you need a big honkin GPU to run it
09:41 < fenn> # The number of codebooks used will be determined bythe bandwidth selected. Supported bandwidths are 1.5kbps (n_q = 2), 3 kbps (n_q = 4), 6 kbps (n_q = 8)
09:48 < fenn> ok supposedly it runs faster than realtime on a single cpu core
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10:32 < fenn> "We are forming cells within a global brain and we are excited that we might start to think collectively.  What becomes of us still hangs crucially on how we think individually." -- Tim Berners-Lee
10:34 < superkuh> That is also the conclusion of Rodolfo R Llinás book "I of the Vortex: From Neurons to Self".
10:37 < fenn> i came up with it independently :D
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11:02 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> Hi, I am new here and curious if there any topic-specific sub channels.
11:03 < hprmbridge> kanzure> We don't. Everything goes into the main channel. You could read the backlog? https://gnusha.org/logs/?C=M;O=D
11:18 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> Thank you. Might take a while.
11:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> if you see anything you like let us know... another way is just download one of the archives and search/grep
11:20 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> I came across this looking at the e/acc site. What’s the connection?
11:21 < hprmbridge> kanzure> here is an overview of this server  https://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap
11:24 < L29Ah> what e/acc site?
11:27 < docl> perhaps we ought to train an llm on the logs and produce a newbie introduction from that or something
11:41 < docl> this e/acc site? https://www.effectiveacceleration.org/posts/pfBhiWrJyzRktM8ZL/building-a-transhumanist-future
11:43 < docl> @astatineknight what are your interests? have you worked on anything related?
12:10 < jrayhawk> i tried to set up the diyhpl.us wiki system to be forkable, but git got taken over by SaaS monopolists and imbeciles, so all the merkle tree tooling i was hoping would emerge ~2010 never happened
12:14 < jrayhawk> ikiwiki also hit scalability problems due to architectural limitations
12:14 < fenn> how so?
12:16 < jrayhawk> it repeatedly walks the whole hierarchy lookng for updates at both the ikiwiki level and at the DVCS level whenever you do anything other than simple reads
12:17 < docl> yikes
12:17 < docl> hmm. maybe just port it to fossil? that comes with built in wiki
12:18 < jrayhawk> yeah, something more integrated would have a lot of advantages, though i am not sold on dynamic rendering
12:20 < fenn> i'm not sure what you mean "simple reads" - it compiles markdown to static html when you git push, and also there are some plugins. does a tagging plugin or page categories necessitate this?
12:21 < fenn> naively, you'd only compile markdown files that changed
12:23 < fenn> the other issue with ikiwik is its development roadmap hasn't been updated in 9 years...
12:23 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> I run a lab that is trying to replicate complex human biology with the greater goal of harnessing what is learned in the process to come up with something better.
12:24 < jrayhawk> sadly, it knows what markdown files have changed by walking the hierarchy. tens of thousands of fully-cache-synchronized getdents and stat calls
12:25 < jrayhawk> then it starts managing those enormous hierarchies as nested refernces of perl objects
12:26 < jrayhawk> which are just a performance disaster
12:27 < fenn> i think the harder problem with distributed wikis is deciding how and what to merge
12:29 < jrayhawk> yeah, you should really be able to pick and choose which branches of the merkle tree to grab and how much history, but git is really dumb about tht stuff
12:29 < fenn> even just surface level content, you're going to get spammed if you just let anything through
12:30 < fenn> manually merging in huge change sets sounds like a job nobody will do
12:30 < fenn> maybe now we can do it with AI
12:31 < fenn> if it's easy to merge because it's derived from a recent common ancestor, then you didn't need a distributed wiki
12:31 < jrayhawk> cherry picking branches on a merkle tree to copy/merge still seems better than the manual text copying/merging people do now
12:32 < fenn> oh definitely
12:32 < fenn> i'm always amazed a how primitive diff semantics are
12:33 < fenn> like i would expect the computer to see "insert this after the section break" but instead it's something really dumb
12:45 < docl> @astatineknight replicate biology? like synthetic organelles or enzymes or something?
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13:09 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> „synthetic“ can mean many things. We use different types of human adult stem cells and iPCS to construct tissues/organs with their intended functionality but then combine them in forms that you wouldn’t find in mammals. Thus we grow physical multiorgan copies (reductionist) of a person, which is the replicate part, and use the same tissues in novel configurations and added functionalities for
13:09 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> improved performance. For example, developing new biological organs that can perform the function of multiple „1st gen“ human tissues.
13:16 < hprmbridge> kanzure> do you grow organoids? or surgically modified embryos ..?
13:17 < hprmbridge> kanzure> sounds like mostly tissue co-culture
13:17 < hprmbridge> kanzure> do you work on ex vivo organ perfusion systems
13:20 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> All of these are some of the tools we use
13:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> are you an undergrad, PI, something else?
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13:23 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> I run the lab so it would be PI
13:24 < hprmbridge> kanzure> cool.
13:24 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> What are you working on and others in this community?
13:24 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://technologyreview.com/2019/02/01/239624/the-transhumanist-diy-designer-baby-funded-with-bitcoin/amp/
13:24 < hprmbridge> kanzure> oops that's an amp link... better link: https://technologyreview.com/2019/02/01/239624/the-transhumanist-diy-designer-baby-funded-with-bitcoin/
13:26 < hprmbridge> kanzure> but also enzymatic DNA synthesis. targeting >10,000 bp, multiple bases per second, using an unconventional approach
13:26 < hprmbridge> kanzure> in a single DNA molecule (that is, fast linear synthesis of programmable genetic information)
13:29 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> I read the article. How is the project going?
13:29 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Lately I've been reading and starting some stimulations on RF oscillators with power amplifier stage(s) for inductively coupled plasma production, for small scale waste incineration.  But which would also be useful for semiconductor style fab processes for bioMEMS stuff (also next gen dna synthetis as the eventual goal)
13:30 < hprmbridge> nmz787> S/stimulations/simulations/
13:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> do you know the saying that nine women can't produce a baby in one month?
13:35 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Queue the pro-lifers
13:36 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> now i do
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13:36 < Ashstar> Applied Biosystems?
13:37 < Ashstar> oops
13:39 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> I liked GeneCo better
14:01 < Ashstar> GeneCo is great
14:07 < hprmbridge> kanzure> balaji probably lurks here https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1198388476639461386/Screenshot_20240120-160652.png?ex=65beb93d&is=65ac443d&hm=98b616793c9ff91140c2699a4ae2de56dba319c2875029994408a24cea235c14&
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16:14 < jrayhawk> well, i guess your twitter trolling has gotten you publicity, at least
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16:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there was also the coveted replyguy https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1198427014047203470/Screenshot_20240120-184056.png?ex=65bedd21&is=65ac6821&hm=b82bd83a1efd80b2d9c1fe9cad23f0a329f251958ce7d397a30723d699388592&
16:49  * fenn worries about The Simulation running out of subjective computing power and culling unnecessary players
16:50 < hprmbridge> kanzure> someone said that, once.
16:53 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "not me, no sir, i'm well outside the overton compression window blast radius"
17:03 < jrayhawk> who was the other has-a-history-of-getting-useful-things-done person you/e/acc alienated lately that was not wei dai?
17:05 < jrayhawk> -and-would-have-historically-been-a-natural-political-ally
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17:21 < hprmbridge> kanzure> i don't remember this.
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17:27 < fenn> davidad?
17:28 < fenn> amarbles?
17:29 < fenn> we've automated the alienation process, no further action is necessary
17:31 < fenn> https://img.bricklink.com/ItemImage/SL/6876-1.png
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18:08 < jrayhawk> nah, someone more interesting than that. i am bad at remembering twitter interactions.
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18:13 < fenn> more lego automation https://www.flickr.com/photos/legoloverman/5065468352/in/album-72157625131097864/
18:26 < docl> jrayhawk: my memory matches yours, but the name is barely escaping me. was it one of the bitcoin guys?
18:28 < Ashstar> uhm
18:31 < Ashstar> sure is tempting, job offer
18:31 < Ashstar> $120k
18:32 < Ashstar> oh well, I would have to move to Pacheco
18:40 < Ashstar> pass
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21:45 < muurkha> jrayhawk: you know, if you have a thing that wants to walk a history looking for updates, the Git repository is a really good way to do that; you can very easily walk an old and new tree in parallel, pruning whatever branches are the same, to efficiently get a list of changed files.  in the case of no updates to the tree, this involves reading two commit objects and noticing that their root 
21:46 < muurkha> directory has the same hash
21:47 < muurkha> that's a much better way to know what markdown files have changed than tens of thousands of fully-cache-synchronized getdents and stat calls
21:48 < muurkha> astatineknight: that sounds super cool
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23:16 < otoburb> F/w 10
23:16 < otoburb> ...
--- Log closed Sun Jan 21 00:00:35 2024