--- Log opened Mon Jan 22 00:00:38 2024
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03:36 < fenn> a bunch of proposed aging markers visualized wrt chronological age https://agerank.streamlit.app/
03:37 < fenn> "I want to know all the biomarkers that change with age, not a bunch of black-box marketing ploys. This app will eventually contain information on every biomarker ever measured and let you filter all the ones that change with age.
03:37 < fenn> " - aaron king
03:40 < fenn> i understand the reticence to jump onboard any specific algorithm or subset of biomarkers being promoted, but it does help to have a shorthand to use for communication, for example when describing the effects of an intervention
03:40 < fenn> machines don't need brevity of communication and can specify a URI to the model or the full algorithm
03:41 < fenn> more dimensions is probably better
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10:43 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://sites.google.com/view/davepascoe/home?authuser=0
10:46 < fenn> lol @ rejuvenationolympics.com
10:46 < fenn> "you win by never crossing the finish line"
11:16 < L29Ah> is this a fancy shop for biochemical tests?
11:19 < L29Ah> they even want a squiggly signature in their registration form, among other personal things
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11:27 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> I am looking for examples of algorithms that mimic biological computing other than those inspired by neurobiology. Examples where a computational tool was developed and later found to mimic a biological process are also of interest (non-neuro). I would appreciate the hive mind of this community in this quest.
11:27 < hprmbridge> kanzure> and pheromone routing
11:27 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ant, rather
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12:18 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> great one
12:23 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> the reciprocal example would be using cell tower placement optimization tools to understand pancreatic beta cell responses to glucose
12:51 < L29Ah> monte carlo method :>
12:52 < L29Ah> fractals
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15:44 < L29Ah> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4486781/
15:45 < L29Ah> .t
15:45 < EmmyNoether> Being cool: how body temperature influences ageing and longevity - PMC
15:45 < saxo> Being cool: how body temperature influences ageing and longevity - PMC
16:11  * fenn cheats and uses chatgpt
16:19 < fenn> genetic algorithms, particle swarm optimization, "bees algorithm" (hadn't heard of this one), bat algorithm, filesharing ~ bacterial conjugation, reaction diffusion systems, constructal law, and arguably money is evolved
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16:20 < hprmbridge> Eli> Its not a bad start. Currently I watch Dr. Michael Lustgarten. He actually plots his results and does multiple blood draws and shows the data in the videos. He picks aging biomarkers he wants to attack and adjusts them one at a time. Oftentimes, there are side effects or null results that don't show up in the literature when taking supplements or modifying behavior when attempting to adjust these
16:20 < hprmbridge> Eli> biomarkers. A great example is his experiments trying to adjust his NAD stores via different pathways, while simultaneously not affecting biomarkers associated with increased aging. https://www.youtube.com/@conqueragingordietrying1797
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16:22 < hprmbridge> Eli> TBH, a large portion of aging also involves "choosing the right parents". One of the fist genes we discovered was from a town in Italy where basically no one gets cardio vascular disease.
16:24 < fenn> since they're explicitly models of biological systems, i'm not sure if these count: cellular automata, L-systems (lindenmayer), P-systems (phaun), computer viruses
16:26 < fenn> there has to be some search algorithm like what aptamers do
16:26 < fenn> "but is it life?" is the new "but is it art?"
16:28 < fenn> eli are you sure it's due to the gene and not the magnesium in the water
16:32 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> There is something about that word „automata“ that soothes
16:33 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> All great examples. Do you or anyone else in this community build algorithms or other tools for that matter inspired by human biology?
16:34 < fenn> i got into robotics because of that, but somehow the original idea got lost along the way
16:35 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> would you care to say more?
16:36 < fenn> animals don't have rigid precise actuators and pre-planned trajectories, they react to sensors and flail wildly
16:37 < fenn> i had some idea to build a mobile legged robot with mckibben "airmuscle" braided rubber tubing actuators
16:37 < fenn> but before i got anywhere with that project i decided it would be prudent to study the standard industrial robotics control systems and methods
16:38 < L29Ah> "get things rigid and save on all these sensors and feedback loops"
16:38 < fenn> anyway i don't build anything useful
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16:39 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> most interesting discoveries came out of „not being useful“
16:40 < fenn> i'm very impressed by how a wasp can turn some mud into a structured shelter with specialized compartments
16:41 < fenn> the best we can do is earthbag "superadobe"
16:41 < fenn> there has been some development of concrete based 3d printed houses, but for the most part they're very meh
16:41 < L29Ah> astatineknight: what novel organoids do you have in mind? apart from the endocrine
16:42 < fenn> how does the wasp do it's thing? it could be useful to have small robots building big structures instead of big robots building small structures
16:42 < fenn> s/'//
16:44 < fenn> paper wasp nests are more impressive, but rely on more sophisticated materials
16:44  * L29Ah haven't seen wire-aware swarms yet
16:44 < fenn> wire-aware?
16:44 < L29Ah> and tiny battery-powered robots have pathetic mechanical impact over the expensive lifetime of their batteries
16:45 < fenn> ah
16:45 < fenn> ISS has a robot arm that can walk around between charge points
16:46 < fenn> both sides have grippers that act as electrical connections
16:46 < fenn> both ends*
16:47 < fenn> https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190701093736-wasp-nest-01-super-169.jpg
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16:47 < L29Ah> paperwork explosion
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16:51 < fenn> apparently mud wasps eat a lot of spiders
16:54  * fenn mutters about bamboo as a mechanical beam element
16:55 < fenn> something about slime molds
16:55 < fenn> myxobacteria too
16:55 < hprmbridge> Eli> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApoA-I_Milano
16:56 < hprmbridge> astatineknight> Pure art to me - reminds me of this Kellogg house https://www.yatzer.com/desert-house-kendrick-bangs-kellogg
16:57 < hprmbridge> Eli> Eskimos also seem to have genes that protect them from saturated fat consumption. And my nutrition professor was convinced that the Maasai were protected due to an old paper describing them as having enlarged arteries
16:58 < fenn> is it the genes or the diet
16:58 < fenn> both groups have "unusual" diets by western standards
16:59 < hprmbridge> Eli> Massai and Eskimo both consume a lot of fat
16:59  * L29Ah considers introducing Phyllostachys edulis to his willage, hope it won't take over everything
16:59 < fenn> get the cool looking black bamboo that's naturally shiny and smooth
17:01 < fenn> possibly https://www.bambou-en-france.com/gallery/Phyllostachys-Violascens--3-.jpg
17:01 < fenn> ok it's just called "black bamboo"
17:02 < fenn> https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/t_share/MTc2MjYzMTMzMTc2ODAwNDQ2/bamboos.jpg
17:04 < L29Ah> does it grow as fast?
17:09 < fenn> maybe half as fast, who knows
17:10 < fenn> Guadua Angustifolia seems to be the fastest
17:12 < fenn> not as pretty: https://www.guaduabamboo.com/blog/comparing-mechanical-properties-of-bamboo-guadua-vs-moso
17:15 < superkuh> I like Phyllostachys atrovaginata most because of it's fast growth and cold tolerance.
17:33 < fenn> https://www.guaduabamboo.com/blog/types-of-bamboo-used-for-building
17:43 < muurkha> fenn: the humans turn mud into catalytic converters, microchips, and beer cans
17:44 < muurkha> astatineknight: what about genetic programming and other genetic algorithms?
17:45 < fenn> muurkha: the conversion system is not self reproducing
17:45 < muurkha> oh, fenn already mentioned those
17:45 < fenn> these guadua bamboo guys really know how to make a website
17:49 < muurkha> fenn: there does exist more inspiring adobe architecture than superadobe (Chan Chan is maybe one of the more famous examples in America, but there are others in Africa) but the reason superadobe (and mechanically stabilized earth, etc.) are so much less complex than a mud dauber's nest is mostly a question of Galileo's scaling laws.  you can daub a gram of mud onto the ceiling and have it stay 
17:50 < muurkha> there, but if you try that with a kilogram or a tonne it has to be spread pretty thin
17:50 < superkuh> ... joke? It's a terrible squarespace website.
17:52 < fenn> ok but it's actually got content i want to read
17:56 < superkuh> If you execute the code, eventually, yes.
17:56 < superkuh> But it's just text and images, it shouldn't require that.
17:57 < superkuh> It is an okay web application. But it's a terrible web site.
18:02 < fenn> i don't find chan chan very inspiring. in fact i'm confused why they would take a free-form material like mud and turn it into straight walls with square corners, which are weaker than curved walls
18:47 < Ashstar> there is a very great book that was a product o research done back in the 30's when there were lots of tribes that had not been exposed to the affects of refined foods
18:47 < Ashstar> Nutrition an Physical Degeneration
18:48 < Ashstar> by Wiston Price, DDS
18:48 < Ashstar> they cover the Massai
18:49 < Ashstar> it is a well respected  book
18:49 < Ashstar> fenn
18:50 < hprmbridge> Eli> I think everyone knows about Weston price
18:50 < Ashstar> winston Price
18:50 < Ashstar> Weston
18:50 < Ashstar> oh, right
18:50 < hprmbridge> Eli> Whoops Winston
18:51 < Ashstar> the Price Potenger Foundation carries on some of the research
18:51 < hprmbridge> Eli> Wait, I gaslit myself. Weston was correct
18:54 < fenn> i know about weston price but only from this channel; i expect most humans have never heard of him
18:54 < hprmbridge> Eli> Anyway, we will see if the saturated fat hypothesis is legit if these carnivore diet people start dropping over the next 20 years
18:55 < Ashstar> that is still something that I agree with
18:55 < hprmbridge> Eli> Anyone in nutrition gets taught about him. Probably a lot of functional medicine doctors too
18:55 < fenn> the original "mediterranean diet" study was the first use of multivariate analysis, and they did it wrong. the conclusions were never re-checked even after many decades
18:55 < Ashstar> all the other stuff, well, I think the exposure to sugars, refined carbs
18:55 < Ashstar> have hurt us
18:56 < Ashstar> the saturate fats
18:56 < Ashstar> of course, we reallly should steer clear
18:56 < Ashstar> polyunsaturates
18:57 < Ashstar> like olive oils, 
18:57 < fenn> not like olive oil
18:57 < Ashstar> are great
18:57 < fenn> fruit oils have far less polyunsaturated than seed oils
18:57 < fenn> olive is a fruit
18:57 < Ashstar> avocados
18:57 < Ashstar> are great
18:58 < fenn> ok boomer
18:58 < fenn> i can't afford avocados
18:58 < Ashstar> sesame oils, great
18:59 < fenn> i think there is probably nothing wrong with saturated fat
18:59 < fenn> stress, caffeine, magnesium deficiency
19:00 < fenn> possibly saturated fat exacerbates the magnesium deficiency
19:00 < Ashstar> ok, you carnivorous pork loving whatever gen
19:01 < fenn> do italians really drink a lot of coffee or is this outdated
19:02 < Ashstar> they do
19:02 < Ashstar> shit, after dinner
19:02 < Ashstar> coffee
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19:03 < Ashstar> I can't sleep after a meal with Italians who serve coffee
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19:03 < Ashstar> it's very European
19:05 < Ashstar> as far as stress, that's a true ager
19:05 < Ashstar> the elevated cortisols
19:05 < Ashstar> are very destructive
19:12 < Lando-SpacePimp> Ashstar, https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68059755
19:18 < Ashstar> cool
19:21 < hprmbridge> kanzure> boring
19:22 < hprmbridge> kanzure> more immanetizing the eschaton, less flaring up my boredom
19:22 < muurkha> fenn: people build straight walls with square corners because it is easier than building carefully controlled, symmetrical curves
19:23 < muurkha> but if you look at the details of the walls you'll see they're very much not straight in detail
19:23 < muurkha> a remarkable amount of the time spent making things by hand is spent on measuring them
19:24 < Ashstar> "measure twice, cut once"
19:24 < Ashstar> my dad would say
19:25 < hprmbridge> kanzure> my daddy used to say, if you're not working on bringing forth the third impact then are you even working?
19:25 < muurkha> agreed, kanzure 
19:26 < muurkha> one of the most interesting things about automation is that it makes measurement free
19:27 < muurkha> this makes new kinds of designs possible
19:27  * fenn grumbles "what do you think is holding up that geofront anyway"
19:28 < muurkha> plumb bobs, fenn
19:28 < muurkha> mostly plumb bobs
19:28 < fenn> measuring tapes used as a structural element
19:29 < fenn> dynamic compression members
19:29 < fenn> is that not a thing in this timeline either
19:30  * fenn sighs
19:30 < muurkha> that's pretty similar to MSE
19:30 < muurkha> but maybe I misunderstand what you mean
19:31  * muurkha injects Ashstar with anti-inflammatory steroids
19:31 < Ashstar> thanks
19:31 < muurkha> any time
19:31 < fenn> mass going around a curve imparts momentum to whatever is doing the accelerating, whether it's a stream of pellets or a solid cable or tape
19:32 < fenn> also measuring tapes are commonly used to deploy small satellite booms
19:32 < Ashstar> doctor just gave me a script of methylprgnisalone
19:33 < fenn> what's MSE?
19:33 < Ashstar> I got pneumonia result of the flu
19:33 < muurkha> sorry, mechanically stabilized earth, which I mentioned earlier without the initialism
19:42 < fenn> https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/evangelion/images/3/33/GeoFront_Nerv_HQ_Eva_Chronicle.png
19:42 < fenn> this actually seems pretty doable
19:43 < fenn> easier if you build the city on top afterwards
19:48 < fenn> 44 cubic kilometers of stuff to excavate, or 100 Gt
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19:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> richest man in earth is out there being serious about evangelion third impact memes and everyone is unphased, world is wack
19:54 < hprmbridge> Eli> Report back on mental effects. For some people with treatment resistant major depressive disorder, they experience rapid alleviation.
19:56 < fenn> "Symptoms such as euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, severe depression, and psychosis—referred to as corticosteroid-induced psychosis—have been estimated to develop in 5% to 18% of patients treated with corticosteroids"
19:56 < fenn> that's a pretty big fraction
19:58 < fenn> someone new here was on corticosteroids and then he disappeared
19:58 < fenn> sphertext
20:02 < fenn> i'm going to have to start auto-scraping tweets for posterity aren't i
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20:08 < fenn> Yi Visual Language Model just dropped (6B and 34B variants) based on LLaVa
20:12 < fenn> unclear from the docs if it can read chinese text in images or not
20:13 < muurkha> fenn: the Library of Congress stopped, so yes
20:13 < muurkha> if you don't nobody will
20:14 < fenn> i'm just trying to make sense of #hplusroadmap logs
20:14 < fenn> from not that long ago
20:15 < fenn> unfortunately i have no idea how to actually scrape twitter
20:16 < hprmbridge> Eli> Alleviation of depression due to corticosteroids is so common the doctors have an expression called “the Remicade high”
20:17 < hprmbridge> Eli> I suppose that’s a MAB. But steroids are similar
20:17 < fenn> well there is the sickness behavior theory of depression...
20:18 < muurkha> fenn: nitter knows
20:18 < muurkha> better get it while you can; ain't such a long trip from the cradle to the crypt
20:18 < fenn> nitter is probably harder to scrape than twitter
20:19 < muurkha> nitter contains software that successfully scrapes twitter
20:19 < muurkha> it's free software under the AGPL: https://github.com/zedeus/nitter
20:19 < muurkha> you don't have to scrape nitter, you can just invoke it with a subroutine call
20:20 < muurkha> albeit in Nim
20:20 < hprmbridge> Eli> Yes, the sickness theory of depression makes a lot of sense to me. Inflammation overreaction is more likely to be evolved than inflammation under reaction. Overreaction usually doesn’t kill you immediately.
20:21 < muurkha> but apparently calling Nim from C is pretty doable: https://gist.github.com/KyrillosWalid/a923c9f980591b8c184368591cd9a9e8
20:21 < muurkha> and therefore from Python or whatever else
20:24 < fenn> https://github.com/yglukhov/nimpy
20:25 < Ashstar> <hprmbridge> Eli> Alleviation of depression due to corticosteroids is so common the doctors have an expression called “the Remicade high”
20:26  * Ashstar pops another corticosteroid
20:26 < fenn> looks like nimporter is what you'd actually use
20:28 < fenn> why aren't these people just using cython
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20:34 < muurkha> I've never actually tried Cython
20:34 < muurkha> is it good?
20:37 < fenn> i don't know
20:38  * fenn sleeps
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22:15 < hprmbridge> Eli> Another aging target, this involves the SERPINE1 gene; 10 percent longer lifespan, and 10 percent longer telomeres; drug now in phase 2 trials: https://www.sciencealert.com/amish-community-rare-genetic-mutation-protects-against-ageing-serpine1
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 23 00:00:37 2024