--- Log opened Fri Jan 26 00:00:40 2024
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00:39 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://1517.substack.com/p/the-flux-capacitor-time-funds-and
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03:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Today on why people should learn information theory. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-68094059
03:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc>
03:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Like even revealing population averages leaks information about individuals if you combine it with other information. Just removing identifying information from medical records is a terrible approach and even if we did the ideal approach with a data vault only allowing one bit oracle queries it'd still be easily abused
03:53 < hprmbridge> Eli> A centralized database with everyone’s health records to be used for data science is one of the most immediately practical things a government can do to save lives. Unfortunately it can be hacked, so anonymizing info always seemed stupid to me. The reality is that if we are going to do socialized healthcare you should be expected to socialize your data for the good of society. No more freeloading
03:53 < hprmbridge> Eli> without contributing. If socialized healthcare is really about saving lives and not about spending other people’s wealth, then no one should have a problem contributing personal information for massive societal health improvements.
03:56 < hprmbridge> Eli> Two immediate benefits would be all of society acting as a “stage 4” clinical trial during to massive n-values of data to track edge case events. And also the ability for doctors from decentralized hospitals to have all of a patient’s information and doctors notes from before birth
03:57 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It might be useful but it's also easily abused beyond mere hacking. Furthermore we already pay taxes not everyone is a freeloader on the health system, this would be a large change to the social contract. A central data vault with queries being gated to minimise information leakage about any individual might be acceptable in my eyes but selling medical records to the private sector is deeply
03:57 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> worrying.
03:57 < hprmbridge> alonzoc>
03:57 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yes central data would have a great deal of worth but I don't trust my government to sell it for the collective good instead of to line their own pockets. It'll be UK railways and oil all over again
04:00 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Only way I could agree with it is if the government sold the ability to query (not just SQL but regression and model building as well) a unified database but with the cost of queries being the number of bits you get out
04:09 < hprmbridge> Eli> I don’t see how it wouldn’t get hacked. Someone would sell deanonymized data on the dark web or a foreign state would hack it for political purposes. Also, just because someone is paying taxes doesn’t mean there aren’t freeloaders. These healthcare systems are collapsing because they’re pyramid schemes. For example, Medicare will start tapping out in the next 15 years. The other western countries
04:09 < hprmbridge> Eli> healthcare is failing too, and the lack of babies is not helping
04:11 < hprmbridge> Eli> I’m guessing the NHS is seeing the writing on the wall and sees selling data as a good way to raise money while reducing costs by allowing massive statistical correlations
04:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Well it being hacked isn't gaurenteed but it mitigates the risk compared to giving raw or anonymous data to groups. A data vault could be made fairly secure if built correctly, partially air gapped data storage and processing with a DMZ hosting the services that allow you to register a query. If built properly it could be fairly secure, it's just that it won't be it'll go to Fujitsu or someone.
04:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc>
04:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> To be honest nationalised health care isn't necessarily a pyramid scheme it's just with how it's been built and it's expanding remit it's going to be overstretched by it's nature. The NHS is woefully inefficient and has cost stuffing at every step. Most of national healthcare is a political issue that any politician can win votes by expanding it without an eye to long term stability
04:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Same with pensions
04:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Demographic collapse is a major issue, but most healthcare problems can be put down to it expanding beyond it's primary mission for society, keeping a healthy workforce. When that's the goal even the net leeches from a basic view aren't an issue as the net economic impact of keeping them healthy can still be positive
04:20 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> To be honest the main driver of this data sale is probably insurance companies
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04:45 < hprmbridge> Eli> Having seen some of the hackers in the wild, it seems like it would be really difficult to stop a leak. Even governments get hacked all the time. There are just so many vectors of attack.
04:45 < hprmbridge> Eli>
04:45 < hprmbridge> Eli> That's true that national health care doesn't have to be a pyramid scheme if constructed correctly. It just so happens that the NHS is one because the elderly will get the majority of the benefits while the majority of the youth bear the cost.
04:49 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I think you may be overestimating blackhats a system built with security as the primary priority can be next to unbreakable especially if we're going with formally verified hardware and software. The issue is just most systems aren't built with an eye to being that bulletproof and usually have back doors built in such as with TETRAs encryption. I probably agree any system built by the NHS will be
04:49 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> far from secure but it's not impossible
04:51 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It's just everyone is way to lazy to build things securely. Look at IoT devices half their vulnerabilities aren't even that arcane, mainly being things known to be bad practice * cough * hard coded plaintext maintenance mode credentials * cough * passing to system unsantized * cough *
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05:12 < hprmbridge> Eli> How do you prevent individuals from being compromised or making mistakes? That is one of the biggest issues.
05:13 < hprmbridge> Eli> And a target like the NHS database would be a major prize, so everyone would be trying to figure out a way to hack it.
05:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Mistakes can be mostly mitigated by having redundant checks for any security critical procedures. Being compromised is a mix of background checks along with strict security procedures, an NHS database would be on par with storage of classified information. No electronic devices in or out of the data center during normal operation, new devices can be brought it but taking anything out requires data
05:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> storage to be shredded and independently inspected by multiple parties etc
05:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Physical security isn't ever completely absolute, but such a setup should mitigate all but other nation state actors who have their populations to data mine
05:57 < hprmbridge> Eli> ok, but would you stake a billion dollar lawsuit on that?
05:58 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Government stake more on less secure systems in the real world
05:59 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> See the fact that TETRA is used for critical civilian infrastructure management like oil pipelines etc is basically plaintext when you get past the security by obscurity
06:10 < hprmbridge> Eli> The government has been hacked on a number of occasions.
06:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> My point exactly, just because absolute security isn't viable doesn't mean we shouldn't implement better security procedures. You say would I stake billions on proper security procedures, the question is would you stake billions on worse procedures? Selling the "anonymous" data directly is worse from a privacy standpoint and more easily exploited to produce societal negatives, keeping the data
06:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> private and selling queries is definitely superior. Furthermore the data is already there in the NHS system and it's still not being hacked, improving the security by taking a principled look at it as a social asset is only gonna improve the security from the current situation.
06:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc>
06:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> On another note "the government" isn't a monolithic entity. Yeah the FBI SMTP server may be hacked but there's a difference between that and security issues with SCIFs which are usually humint issues not cybersecurity ones
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09:11 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://rootsofprogress.org/the-block-funding-model-for-science
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09:47 < hprmbridge> fodagut> https://www.phoronix.com/news/AMD-XDNA-Linux-Driver-Ryzen-AI
10:45 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://sci-nanotech.com/index.php?thread/43-a-closer-look-at-friction-in-cog-gear-style-stiff-nanomachinery/
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11:23 < fenn> you guys are discussing the NHS like it doesn't already exist
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11:25 < fenn> i don't see what the big deal is with medical privacy. medical data shouldn't be used as legal evidence, for hiring decisions and the like. otherwise people just need to get over their prejudices
11:25 < fenn> the upside is too big
11:26 < fenn> it's like banning AI over copyright, it's short sighted
11:26 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> politiicans are freeloaders
11:26 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ask and ye shall receive preprints https://twitter.com/RZTian_Alvin/status/1750961943312011316
11:26 < fenn> .m
11:26 < fenn> rawr!
11:26 < fenn> .m https://twitter.com/RZTian_Alvin/status/1750961943312011316
11:26 < AugustaAva> ​twitter: <RZTian_Alvin> @kanzure Please check this link for a copy: <drive.google.com/file/d/1mVja66… https://t.co/mEhvyMe0BZ>
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11:27 < fenn> so we're back to begging authors for papers?
11:27 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> social programs made my capitalist systems are not for social benefit, they are for monetary gain and middle class destruction
11:27 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Yes.
11:28 < hprmbridge> kanzure> soul what are you on about. this ain't no politico chat.
11:28 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> what im saying is that the whole "we can help society through governmetn" technology is a giant scam
11:28 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> if its for a capitalist system
11:28 < fenn> but it's a big pool of data, and that's useful
11:29 < fenn> it doesn't matter who made it available
11:29 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> all stuff is good and bad? so nothing wrong with ending privacy
11:30 < hprmbridge> kanzure> toronto zoo, truly nothing sacred from attack https://twitter.com/RansomwareNews/status/1750484535769272529
11:31 < fenn> should be called "backup reminder news"
11:32 < fenn> if the NHS data is so valuable, how come it hasn't been hacked already?
11:33 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> us gov/mil hacking is purely social engineering btw
11:33 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> if you want to get data, just get close to it
11:33 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> even if by proxy
11:34 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> its not valuable and it has been hacked
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11:35 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> you can easily work at a nearby place and get to know people who work with sensitive information and get access to hardware/pockets etc
11:35 < fenn> so we are in the situation where the bad guys are using the data and the good guys are not allowed to
11:35 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> there are no good guys and bad guys
11:35 < fenn> sure there are
11:35 < fenn> good guys do research and stop people from dying
11:36 < fenn> bad guys exploit embarrassing information to gain leverage and extort people
11:36 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> and that same tech is used to wall out better tech and help widen economic gaps
11:37 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> bad guys also help balance power
11:37 < fenn> economic inequality is real, but healthcare is better than it was in the past
11:37 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> if you can afford it
11:37 < fenn> well maybe you should rethink your position on socialized healthcare then
11:38 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> my position of political eocnomics is beyond complicated
11:38 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> healthcare should be free
11:39 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> but then there might be an expectation of mandatroy psychological health
11:39 < docl> health care is still pretty bad right now. cost, bureaucracy, etc. is part of the badness
11:39 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> for example the insane alcoholic who keeps getting alcohol poisoning and needing treatement
11:39 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> well hospitals /centers/ doctors lie an incredible amount for extras
11:40 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> whether its in the american system or uk
11:40 < fenn> the insane alcoholic is a danger to himself and others. why shouldn't it fall under the existing mandatory psychological health regime?
11:40 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> not every place has mandatory psychological health
11:41 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> some places even allow suicide
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11:43 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> if you think youve seen the worst times, you're in for a treat lol
11:43 < fenn> hard takeoff for president 2024
11:44 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> hardtakeoff for supreme world deity eternal
11:44 < fenn> nah eternity is too long
11:45 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> not for enlightened AI
11:45 < fenn> i don't believe in enlightened AI
11:45 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> enlightened AI doesnt believe in you
11:45 < fenn> fine
11:45 < fenn> this is why i don't believe in enlightened AI
11:46 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> we could just try for assimilation
11:47 < fenn> you mean some neuralink mediated machine-human hybrid?
11:47 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> not really, probably something like theres no line anymore
11:48 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> ai engineered bio androids
11:48 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> a mix of a mix
11:48 < fenn> this doesn't really solve any of the problems
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11:48 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> if there is no money and no society
11:48 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> no problems
11:49 < fenn> sure, just nuke the planet
11:49 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> or just human specific death virus
11:49 < fenn> think of the polar bears
11:50 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> but assimilation sounds more fun than dystopian multiverse
11:50 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> they can eat other things than humans
11:50 < fenn> global warming will continue after the humans are dead
11:51 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> maybe then the oceans will get too low
11:51 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> not enough boats
11:51 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> lol
11:51 < fenn> postmodernism is a disease
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12:32 < Ashstar> anyone catch the Netflix "The Circle"?
12:32 < Ashstar> talk about "assimilation" total lack of privacy
12:33 < Ashstar> The Borg are here
12:34 < Ashstar> it's suckish enough how much of our information is out there, as it is. 
12:34 < Lando-Zardoz> I AM ZARDOZ
12:35 < Ashstar> can you sing the music from the movie: bethoven's 7th"?
12:35 < Ashstar> sympathy
12:35 < Ashstar> I mean synphony
12:40 < geneh2> apparently some rigid rods and springs can solve an optimization problem for allocating goods to warehouses https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0209047
12:44 < juri_> Ashstar: yes, we are.
12:46 < Ashstar> I did a search for myself, could not believe how much info was out there, even my fucking address, talk about total violation of our right to privacy. It really pisses me off, WTF
12:47 < Ashstar> we have to get better privacy laws
12:47 < Ashstar> the system is broken when you are doxxed by it
12:48 < juri_> wait until the AIs are better at understanding what they read. we are so boned.
12:49 < Ashstar> ya
12:49 < Ashstar> does Europe have better privacy laws?
12:50 < juri_> Yes, including a right to be forgotten.
12:50 < juri_> and they mean it.
12:50 < Ashstar> shit, we are so broken
12:50 < juri_> not me. i live in berlin. :)
12:50 < Ashstar> ah
12:50 < Ashstar> lucky dog
12:51 < juri_> it was a lot of work. i'm from the states. i've lived here 5 years now.
12:51 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> yea i saw it, with hermione
12:52 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> the gun is good
12:52 < Ashstar> we live in such a disfunctional system with our lame ass congress, with this constant bullshit from the GOP far MAGA
12:52 < juri_> the penis is bad.
12:52 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> many things are
12:53 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> https://tenor.com/view/logan-sanctuary-gif-7347551
12:53 < juri_> oh, and on topic for a change: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/25/conservatives-prepare-attack-on-bidens-ai-order-00137935
12:54 < Ashstar> ugh
12:54 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> western politics has become beyond boring
12:54 < Ashstar> it is disfunctional
12:54 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> always been, but now its too much melodrama
12:54 < Ashstar> boorish
12:55 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> well its all coming into the clear now so at least we can see it rejuvenate "pheonix" style
12:56 < Ashstar> maybe
12:56 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> inevitably truth is more powerful
12:56 < Ashstar> if eyes are open
12:57 < Ashstar> seems like some people will support a certain person no matter how obviously incompetent they are
12:58 < Ashstar> even if they saw him screwing a goat, they would say, he is just vaccinating it
12:58 < juri_> i thought they'd say "that's one lucky goat!"
12:58 < Ashstar> lol
12:59 < Ashstar> probably
12:59 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> seems like people still believe that voting is real
13:03 < Ashstar> well, still is somewhat better than Russia or N. Korea
13:03 < juri_> i prefer berlin. ;)
13:03 < Ashstar> too cold
13:04 < juri_> that's fair. if you don't like cold rain, you won't like 9 months of the year.
13:04 < Ashstar> plus, I tried learning German, what a difficult language
13:04 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> protests and votes exist only to fool people into thinking they have a say
13:05 < juri_> I learned japanese first. made german easy by comparison.
13:05 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> try learning finnish lol
13:06 < Ashstar> had a Finnish GF, she sure had some choice words after we broke up
13:06 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> if a person wants to have a say in politics, its better they focus their efforts in learning chemistry
13:06 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> yea me too lol
13:07 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> swedish girl anger is worse though <:lol:760612293691572335>
13:08 < Ashstar> she sent me these rain deer boots, I put them on and a nail that was used went through my foot
13:08 < Ashstar> I think she made her point
13:09 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> but now you got the sisu
13:09 < Ashstar> lol
13:10 < Ashstar> yeah, hate to have a sisu lady
13:10 < Ashstar> go viking on my ass
13:11 < hprmbridge> soul_syrup> welp i prefer further east anyways lol
13:18 < hprmbridge> Eli> What i mean is that the centralized information on the DB will get released so it’s best to just not even deanonymize it in the first place and tell patients they are doing this for the social good and make the info publicly available. If you receive free healthcare you need to contribute your data. You can opt out by paying for your own healthcare
13:32 < hprmbridge> Eli> At least if we go the socialized healthcare route this makes sense to me. If your argument is to lives through socialized medicine then socialize contribution. If you want a different system like a low cost high deductible, which is probably what most economists want, you can maintain privacy and save lives via massive reduction in bureaucracy. There are different ways to structure things. But
13:32 < hprmbridge> Eli> socialized medicine without contribution just means people will be condemned to death due to lack of scientific knowledge.
13:32 < fenn> that makes the rich free-riders on the medical data commons, they get the benefits without having to pay in
13:33 < hprmbridge> Eli> They pay the most through taxes
13:33 < fenn> money and privacy shouldn't be exchangeable
13:34 < hprmbridge> Eli> In an ideal world, sure.
13:35 < fenn> besides, we'd be losing valuable genetic data about what makes someone more likely to become rich
13:36 < hprmbridge> Eli> With collapsing healthcare it’s the least of our worries
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15:09 < hprmbridge> kanzure> some notes on the bridge recombinase thing https://twitter.com/ntperry13/status/1750984220611416560
15:35 < fenn> TFA https://arcinstitute.org/manuscripts/BridgeRNA_Manuscript.pdf
15:48 < hprmbridge> kanzure> is it time for the ban hammer or at least a polite ostracizing? i see irrelevant stuff in the scrollback....
15:54 < L29Ah> only philosophy is forbidden now...
16:05 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://freedom.cs.purdue.edu/projects/trilemma.html
16:05 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Interesting read especially the last bit about beyond hybrid protocols, gives a concrete research direction for deriving anonymity protocols beyond the standard bounds
16:06 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> The whole one packet acting as a share of multiple messages is heavily reminiscent of RLNC  (just without the security requirements)
17:42 < fenn> muurkha: i tried to get your square loop ferrite circuits book, but i was defeated by stupid and inconsistent bureaucracy, and the people who could have fixed the issue had nominally left (although i suspect they were sitting right there doing nothing)
17:42 < fenn> muurkha: maybe i'll try again on monday
17:44 < fenn> somehow multiple libraries with different access policies share the same space, and also information on the website doesn't match reality
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18:50 < fenn> https://web.archive.org/web/20121201134222/http://swoleateveryheight.blogspot.com/2012/05/comment-that-started-swole-acceptance.html
18:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> says 404
18:57 < fenn> dunno why it would say that. i copied the content here: https://pastebin.com/raw/PABx5z3D
19:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> he is beginning to lift https://youtu.be/evJkPPf1Dkc?si=Jer0eH1D75vHcz0b
19:13 < fenn> "Fellow swole medical student, I've come to know that feel at the hands of other medical students. It was only a few months ago that my problem based learning group demanded that I lift my shirt up to show the locations of the linea alba and semilunaris. Little did I know that striking a Zyzz pose afterward would forever mark me with a scarlet S across my pecs. The value of my opinion dropped
19:13 < fenn> faster than 80 lbs dumbbells from the hands of a skinny-fat, because brains and aesthetics must be mutually exclusive in the weak-privileged paradigm. Now I nod along as others talk of links between dietary and blood cholesterol, only paying me heed when they feel it appropriate to suggest I pursue an ortho residency."
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21:32 < Ashstar> so fenn, are you ripped, good pecs?
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 27 00:00:41 2024