--- Log opened Sat Jan 27 00:00:41 2024
00:08 < muurkha> fenn: ♥
00:09 < muurkha> <Eli> no one should have a problem contributing personal information
00:10 < muurkha> there are a lot of people who have a need for privacy because other people want to hurt them or have prejudices against them
00:11 < muurkha> <Eli> The other western countries['] healthcare is failing too
00:11 < muurkha> actually life expectancy at birth continues to rise year by year everywhere except the USA, and I think even in the USA it started rising again this year
00:15 < muurkha> I agree that "people just need to get over their prejudices", and once we achieve that state, we will have removed one of the two big reasons that *other* people (the ones who maybe don't even have the prejudices) need privacy
00:15 < muurkha> however, the judgment that it would be desirable for everyone to get over their prejudices doesn't mean it has happened, so it doesn't remove that reason
00:20 < muurkha> the other reason, that sometimes people want to hurt other people, would remain
00:21 < muurkha> fenn: I really appreciate your square-loop ferrite efforts!
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02:48 < hprmbridge> Eli> What I mean to say is that the argument for socialized medicine is to save lives. Since almost nothing would immediately save more lives than mass data collection to draw correlations in the long tail to help reverse Erooms Law and find genetic edge cases, people who make arguments for savings lives will have their arguments in alignment with reducing privacy. This is not necessarily my opinion,
02:48 < hprmbridge> Eli> just the logical dot product of these two goals. I entirely understand the fear that people have of being hurt by others having their info. Having said that, if even 10% of the country volunteered their data, which I think is possible, it would have a major impact.
02:48 < hprmbridge> Eli>
02:48 < hprmbridge> Eli> There may be a mistranslation with the term healthcare. It is not the same as health. For example, Medicare kills 1.5% of the people over 65 who use it for healthcare. In other words. It’s statistically more dangerous to use Medicare over the age of 65 than to have been deployed to Iraq. But the real issue is the financial collapse of these systems. If you read the government budget reports, the
02:48 < hprmbridge> Eli> medical systems in western countries have a bleak future. Because demand cannot exceed supply without rationing, we are seeing increased wait times, decreased doctor time with patients, more doctor burnout, and more medical accidents. Eventually these countries will decrease benefits or push back the time you can receive benefits (rationing). It’s frustrating because there are many ways to improve
02:48 < hprmbridge> Eli> the system that would allow much more funding into research and development. Anyway, I’ve probably said too much on this topic and don’t want to take away from other topics.
04:30 < juri_> the medical system here in germany is great. 5 stars, would recommend.
05:13 < L29Ah> medicine is an infinite resource sink
05:14 < L29Ah> socialized medicine will save some lives and end some other lives based on its internal logic the patient won't have much impact on
05:18 < L29Ah> and good luck selling anything to the patients of a socialized medical system w/o being a large corporation (or a person who spent 20-ish years on training, in case of selling labor)
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07:36 < fenn> the vast majority of medical treatments are not targets of bigotry, can we at least make a small list of extra-special snowflake medical information that must be protected?
07:37 < fenn> almost by definition you can't be bigoted against the majority, so we can use the majority's info, right?
07:37 < fenn> i mean, i hate everyone, but that's not considered bigotry
07:39 < fenn> if fenn hates 99.9% of the american medical patients, that's not a reason to hide 100% of american medical data
07:40 < fenn> it's not a "nice to have"
07:41 < fenn> if we take two universes, one with freely released medical information, the other with none, how many people die early in each? what's the delta?
07:41 < fenn> more importantly what's the sign
07:42 < L29Ah> just release your medical information freely, duh
07:42 < L29Ah> no need to force everyone to do it
07:42 < L29Ah> you can campaign for others to follow your great example
07:42 < fenn> i don't have any medical information :\
07:42 < L29Ah> how come?
07:42 < L29Ah> you don't visit doctors?
07:42 < fenn> yeah
07:43 < fenn> also the few times i did, they never gave me anything
07:43 < L29Ah> then you probably have self-observation logs
07:43 < fenn> yes and i published those until i was asked to stop by other people
07:43 < L29Ah> what was their rationale?
07:44 < fenn> they didn't want to be mentioned in questionably legal contexts
07:44 < fenn> even implicitly
07:44 < fenn> i also paused because you can't un-publish information
07:45 < fenn> so i'm still undecided what my final action will be. if i die, please publish my logs, which are currently in a backpack in my closet
07:45 < L29Ah> were they afraid that you would rat on them or smth?
07:46 < fenn> no, they were afraid someone else would read the logs and make inference, such as an employer or prosecutor or romantic partner or whatever (i don't know, i didn't push back)
07:47 < fenn> also i have been infected with a certain strain of paranoia by a different person who has shown me the irrationality of twitter mobs in selecting targets of outrage due to past actions
07:48 < fenn> s/irrationality/unpredictability/
07:48 < fenn> if in 2010 we couldn't know what people would flip out about in 2020 about what we did in 2010, it stands to reason that we don't know what people will flip out about in 2030
07:49 < fenn> ALSO there is a difference between sharing 100% of your life vs just medical data
07:51 < fenn> unfortunately my health problems seem very context dependent
07:52 < fenn> (environmental illness / chemical sensitivity)
07:53 < fenn> like literally i track the wind direction and its effect on me
07:55 < fenn> so i can't just grep the logs for useful medical data without also including a bunch of other information that is not safe to share according to a paranoid mindset
07:57 < fenn> and i'm probably several kinds of special snowflake that the majority hates
07:58 < fenn> i think there have been similar discussions about requiring transparency in financial data, often in europe
07:59 < fenn> it's not fair if only the rich get privacy
07:59 < fenn> it's not fair if only minorities get privacy
08:00 < fenn> i would like to live in a transparent society, but we have a bit of a coordination problem. i can't be the first to stick my neck out, sorry. it's not even my choice really
08:04 < fenn> on the topic of privacy, at the last hpluscon we talked about a lot of interesting stuff but i can barely remember it, even things i may have had a role in creating, like the child rearing incentivization scheme. it's not written down anywhere. this time i'd prefer if we could at least have some kind of scratchpad etherpad or wiki to be able to look back at and remember wtf we accomplished
08:06 < fenn> can random people just edit the wiki without any help? i usually do it from the command line, which is not great
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09:43 < kanzure> you can edit it from github but nobody does
09:43 < kanzure> i couldn't do my notetaking because i was running around keeping things together
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10:05 < fenn> i propose we use https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/hplusroadmap as a scratch pad to make note-taking contributions easier. the etherpad can be merged into the wiki at a later date, minus editing history
10:07 < kanzure> maybe just voice recording  :\
10:07 < fenn> i'll be more explicit; how does one know which topics/facts/agendas should be considered public info
10:08 < fenn> obviously some people will say stuff at a gathering that they wouldn't commit to in public
10:09 < kanzure> that's half the trick, and why the bitcoin developers keep inviting me back to do that for them https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-core-dev-tech/
10:10 < kanzure> "oh you are talking about a zero-day. hmm maybe i should not publicly document this quite yet."
10:12 < fenn> so we need AGI level cognitive capabilities to do a transcript?
10:20 < juri_> wow. there's a lot of clueless here.
10:22 < juri_> fenn: if you're looking to collaboritatively take notes that might be sensitive, might i recomend cryptpad.fr?
10:23 < fenn> it's not clueless as much as having a different perspective of priorities
10:23 < fenn> if your policy results in more innocent people dying, it was the wrong policy
10:23 < fenn> fairness be damned
10:23  * juri_ nods.
10:24 < juri_> I've had to get a lot of medical intervention, unfortunately. genetic lottery for the win.
10:25 < fenn> it's very easy to point at harms (god i hate that word) that are the result of taking an action. it's much harder to point at things that didn't happen because an action was not taken
10:25 < fenn> broken window fallacy etc
10:25 < juri_> how about "i can walk. i can type. i haven't been killed by my own body"
10:25 < juri_> biology is shit. we need to get rid of it.
10:26 < fenn> you'll take my biology from my cold lifeless... uh, robotic gleaming shell
10:26  * juri_ nods. :)
10:27 < kanzure> fenn: another way to do it is exit interviews a few days after
10:28 < fenn> that is also a good idea
10:30 < kanzure> nobody is allowed to say anything interesting without the presence of a trusty scribe
10:32 < fenn> scribes must get a tonsure bowl haircut
10:32 < fenn> and wear an itchy burlap robe
10:35 < fenn> i don't understand cryptpad, it seems to use one url for all documents; how does it know who i am and which document to display? where is the data stored?
10:37 < fenn> also it has a very busy UI that crams the actual document into 1/4 of my screen area
10:40 < fenn> the encryption key is in the URL?
10:41 < fenn> i don't understand how this could retrieve data from a server, since the server never sees anything after the # character: https://cryptpad.fr/sheet/#/3/sheet/view/dcccec299e8969fbb58fe5d3d929e491/
10:43 < fenn> it says the dcccec299e8969fbb58fe5d3d929e491 part is the document identifier. if so, where's the key? what makes it "end to end encrypted" if there's no key besides the document identifier?
10:44 < fenn> or does that link not even work
10:46 < fenn> in general i'm not on board with the web-appification of everything
10:46 < kanzure> you could derive a public key from the private key, and then download an encrypted blob
10:46 < kanzure> or you could hash the private key and download an encrypted blob indexed by the hash of the private key
10:53 < fenn> i mean i could just run an etherpad server locally if i wanted to be extra paranoid
10:53 < fenn> no need to send all the data to france and back
10:54 < fenn> i'm afraid my personal opsec is not up to par for such secrets of great import
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11:16 < juri_> so, cryptpad has the concept of users, but can also store data in your browser.
11:17 < juri_> i coordinate with people in private there.
11:17 < juri_> the user flow is painful, but...
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11:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ugh oh no https://twitter.com/ayushnoori/status/1751244244776337706
11:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.ado1671
11:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "DNA synthesis plays a critical role in materializing designed proteins. However, as with all major revolutionary changes, this technology is vulnerable to misuse and the production of dangerous biological agents. To enable the full benefits of this revolution while mitigating risks that may emerge, all synthetic gene sequence and synthesis data should be collected and stored in repositories that
11:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> are only queried in emergencies to ensure that protein design proceeds in a safe, secure, and trustworthy manner."
11:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> why is totalitarian overreach always their answer
11:49 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Going forward, these checks could be linked with the synthesis itself—whether chemical or enzymatic—such that each synthesis machine requires cryptographic short exact-match searches for each new genetic sequence. Screening sequences alone may not be sufficient because proteins generated through de novo design may have little or no sequence similarity to any natural proteins, complicating
11:49 < hprmbridge> kanzure> homology detection. Hence, there is a need to log synthesized sequences, using encryption as necessary to protect trade secrets. If a new biological threat emerges anywhere in the world, the associated DNA sequences could be traced to their origins. A “selective revelation” policy could ensure that such queries occur only under exceptional circumstances and on the basis of preestablished criteria"
12:34 < fenn> dear bioterrorists, please submit your bioweapon gene sequences to our centralized database for safe keeping. sincerely, the government
12:34 < fenn> surely this will work!~
12:38 < fenn> another consequence of this policy is that it's not possible to airgap a DNA synthesis machine
12:39 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ah but only a bioterrorist would take reasonable security precautions like airgapping a government-protected DANGEROUS device
12:40 < TMA> "how to enable cyberterrorists become bioterrorists with a single policy"
12:40 < fenn> and responsible bioterrorists never hack government protected dangerous devices~
12:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> oh hey here's an idea let's make the government be responsible for storing all the bioweapon data, surely none of anyone's political enemies would ever get into power and use that data nefariously
12:43 < hprmbridge> kanzure> is IQ a bioweapon?
12:44 < fenn> surely "exceptional circumstances" is a slippery slope we'd never leap headfirst towards like a slip-n-slide party
12:45 < TMA> exceptional circumstances are for example: 
12:46 < fenn> kanzure: large well funded institutions implicitly select for people who are totally fine with authority
12:46 < TMA> "monsanto paid a bribe to learn what syngenta is doing"
12:47 < fenn> china paid $IT_dude a bribe to get all of the sequences
12:47 < TMA> or "court ordered searching the database in an IP infringement case"
12:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "KYC" is probably unconstitutional in finance, and everywhere else https://twitter.com/PiQSuite/status/1750955106387042346
12:48 < fenn> raimondo also hates e/acc
12:49 < fenn> but ITAR worked so well for aerospace~
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13:08 < fenn> the "selective revelation" policy is completely stupid; you wait until AFTER there's a bioweapon release to look into what happened?!
13:09 < fenn> it's too late!
13:09 < fenn> i'm sad i have to point out the obvious
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14:05 < Ashstar> part of the problem with bioweapons is the lack of control of the weapon, it's a two edgged sword
14:06 < Ashstar> it would truly take an insane scientist with suicidal pathology to go there
14:08 < Ashstar> I think, hope
14:08 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Michael Nielsen chimes in on the policy https://twitter.com/michael_nielsen/status/1751355445695193389
14:08 < Ashstar> as if we're not doing enough for our self extinction
14:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> pffffftt https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1200925914406604911/Screenshot_20240127-161022.png?ex=65c7f46a&is=65b57f6a&hm=2a29dd4cb0a1c1d7f4cc40ca57a2d05cff89735fe5d1632045677ffca51134fd&
14:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hmm https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1200926680622051530/Screenshot_20240127-161257.png?ex=65c7f520&is=65b58020&hm=faa39a01cd78f333f00962a37337bd56609c4e8afb2d3d653a60a7b2b98e50b4&
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14:41 < fenn> gcolbourn admits his proposal is an empty gesture:
14:41 < fenn> "I'm starting a funding circle for slowing down / pausing / stopping AGI development."
14:41 < fenn> "What if we publicly commit to outspend you in the opposite value direction to offset this."
14:41 < fenn> "You won't be making any difference - the investment into speeding up AI is already 10s of billions of dollars per year."
14:42 < fenn> how about feeding starving african children instead, huh?
14:48 < fenn> connor leahy draws a distinction between nukes and cars, roughly "not all technology is good, you can't reason about it the same way." but in reality, cars are destroying the planet, and the failure to use nukes (in controlled reactors) is allowing it to happen
14:49 < fenn> the fear of uncontrolled nukes is preventing us from using controlled nukes to do good, and the world is slowly being destroyed
14:50 < fenn> i hope my point is obvious
14:53 < fenn> coffee gave us the modern world: breaking down class barriers, free education, newspapers, rational debate, the ability to think clearly without always being slightly drunk
14:53 < TMA> poorly chosen examples. but the principle is somewhat sound (yperit x alprazolam (xanax))
14:54 < TMA> not entirely sound though
14:54 < fenn> anyone can make a decent mustard gas substitute for $10 and a trip to the grocery store
14:55 < fenn> i could say more but i'm on enough lists already
15:04 < TMA> yes, the deadly combination of knowledge+intelligence which allows you to macgyver large scale havoc with inoccuous ingredients
15:05 < fenn> better regulate that shit
15:05 < fenn> kill all the intelligent people before it's too late
15:06 < TMA> preventive lobotomies for everyone
15:06 < fenn> maybe i shouldn't be giving them ideas
15:07 < TMA> too late for that
15:09 < fenn> they could call it "the great leap backwards"
15:09 < TMA> those ideas are obvious enough for a large enough mass of people that it is inevitable that the ideas percolate to the decision makers
15:10 < TMA> I have a personal question for you, though. Why you want to save starving children in Africa? Do you really hate Europe that much?
15:11 < fenn> it was a rhetorical point. throwing money at africa won't solve anything
15:11 < TMA> uff
15:11 < L29Ah> so, again, what is water fluoridation in US for?
15:14 < fenn> "Fluoridation is nothing less than slow-motion genocide and the systematic emasculation of the American male. It's sapping our vital bodily fluids and robbing us of our precious bodily essence." - gen. jack ripper
15:15 < fenn> "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works."
15:15 < jrayhawk> imbalancing the carbon cycle is not "destroying the planet", it's just a poorly-tapped opportunity
15:16 < fenn> yeah with nanotech and nuclear power we could turn it into gleaming diamond cities in the clouds
15:16  * L29Ah chops fenn with a diamondoid shard
15:16 < fenn> but those are dangerous powerful technologies, not made kid-safe with the pointy bits covered by nanny state
15:17 < fenn> and don't tell me solar power is cheaper
15:18 < fenn> this is another communist conspiracy
15:23 < fenn> what was the context of the leibniz quote? "We have in hand excellent means to do in 10 years more than could be done in several centuries without them, if we apply ourselves to making the most of them, and do nothing else except what must be done."
15:27 < hprmbridge> kanzure> it was in my quotes.txt from when i was 14, and i thought it sounded a lot like a thiel quote
15:28 < hprmbridge> kanzure> full quote is: "I maintain that men could be incomparably happier than they are, and that they could, in a short time, make great progress in increasing their happiness, if they were willing to set about it as they should. We have in hand excellent means to do in 10 years more than could be done in several centuries without them, if we apply ourselves to making the most of them, and do nothing
15:28 < hprmbridge> kanzure> else except what must be done." - Leibniz
15:42 < fenn> do you know specifically what the means he was referring to are?
15:43 < fenn> it seems very vague. i assume some sort of new math, but it could be anything
15:46 < hprmbridge> kanzure> 'Translated in Riley 1972: 104, and quoted in Mates 1986: 120'
15:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> google has no idea where this comes from
15:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> and I don't know where I would have seen it.
15:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I maintain that men could grasp sources and in a relatively short time make tremendous progress against bit rot, if they were willing to set about as they should. We have in hand excellent means to do in 1 year more than could have been done in several centuries of library visits, if we apply ourselves to making the most of it, and do nothing else except the needful.
15:54 < Ashstar> L29Ah, source?
15:54 < Ashstar> for the Floridation emasculation study
15:58 < fenn> it was a quote from dr. strangelove
15:58 < Ashstar> oh
15:59 < Ashstar> that did sound like what some of the health "enthusiasts" (nuts) would say at the health spa I gew up at
16:00 < Ashstar> the wheat grass-garlic eating enema a day group
16:01 < Ashstar> but your right, it is too bad nuclear has such a taint, it is what might save us, if we used safe tech
16:02 < Ashstar> more people have died from air pollution related sources than all the nulear power related incidences
16:04 < Lando-Zardoz> Ashstar, DETOX YOUR COLON, MAN
16:04 < Lando-Zardoz> DRINK THIS
16:04 < Ashstar> yeah, heard that stuff all the time
16:04 < Ashstar> we called them the "Eliminatti"
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17:19 < Ashstar> I guess I have to clarify that, I think there is nothing wrong with that approach to health if it is not taken to extremes. I do feel there is some benefit to some uses of fasts, some detox stuff but there where the group that had the expression: "Elimination is next to Illumination." We jockingly called them the "Eliminatti"
17:20 < Ashstar> jokingly
17:21 < Ashstar> my mom also was into that, I tried it as a kid and still believe that a few days of fasting can help
17:22 < Ashstar> with life extension
17:26 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://ibbis.bio/our-work/the-common-mechanism/
17:28 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hmm "Contact us to learn more about accessing and using this software package" that would be a fun audit target
17:32  * fenn refrains from speculating
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23:57 < muurkha> <Eli> In other words. It’s statistically more dangerous to use Medicare over the age of 65 than to have been deployed to Iraq.
23:58 < muurkha> the issue here is actually that it's more dangerous to be over the age of 65 than to have been deployed to Iraq, because the fatality rate among the invading forces in Iraq was negligible.  Almost all of the fatalities in Iraq were to the invaded population, because that's what always happens, but in this case the difference in technology was so large as to prevent any significant death rate among 
23:58 < muurkha> the invading forces
23:59 < Hooloovoo> wait was that true in the russian invasion?
--- Log closed Sun Jan 28 00:00:42 2024