--- Log opened Sun Jan 28 00:00:42 2024
00:01 < muurkha> in general it's true that as L29Ah says medicine is potentially an infinite resource sink.  By doing more research and discovering more therapies, we are converting more and more people's situations from "we can't save you because we don't know how" to "we can't save you because we don't have the material resources required", which to my mind is a strictly better situation.  Posthuman abundance will 
00:01 < muurkha> help but the problem of demand exceeding supply may continue
00:05 < muurkha> fenn: you can totally be bigoted against the majority, 19th-century scientific racists were bigoted against everyone who wasn't white, who were the majority.  also though the *vast* majority of people are members of one or more marginalized minority group: homosexuals, Jews, "black people", the elderly, people with AIDS, fat people, immigrants, non-virgin unmarried women, etc., and depending on 
00:05 < muurkha> where you live and what situation you're in, any one of those facts coming to life can result in your death.  You only need two 30% minorities to make a 60% majority, and even if they're perfectly uncorrelated, two 30% minorities make a 51% majority
00:06 < muurkha> 15:57 < fenn> and i'm probably several kinds of special snowflake that the majority hates
00:08 < muurkha> what matters is not whether *the majority* hates you.  what matters is whether *one person* hates you and is in a position to hurt you.  having access to your private information can make them hate you, and if they already hate you (or you're inconvenient for them), it can give them more power to hurt you
00:09 < muurkha> Hooloovoo: I think that in the Russian invasion so far that has not been true; about 120k Russians have died as against 85k Ukrainians, but probably after the war is over, far more Ukrainians will have died: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Casualties
00:12 < muurkha> but probably by only an order of magnitude, not the nearly two orders of magnitude in the US invasion of Iraq (5k invading troops vs. roughly 400k Iraqis, nearly all after the conquest): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War
00:14 < muurkha> if somehow the Ukrainians manage to defeat the Russian invasion, quite plausibly that will be an exception to the general rule about invasions
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02:29 < hprmbridge> kanzure> no more trolley problems https://twitter.com/alexandrosM/status/1751323018771693712
03:03 < TMA> muurkha: it is more of a matter of convenience. even a person that just mildly dislikes you will hurt you, if it is convenient for them
03:06 < TMA> like a person might slightly step to the side to bump into you with a shoulder in a throng 
03:08 < TMA> at least I hope it was a mild dislike, not a full fledged hate, because I have never seen that person who did that to me before
05:22 < jrayhawk> there exist people and diseases that are 
05:22 < jrayhawk> immutably maximally inefficient at converting resources into satisfied preferences
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06:24 < muurkha> TMA: yes, that can happen
06:25 < muurkha> sometimes it's just that they recognize that you're vulnerable and exploitable, like the guys who mugged me on the train
06:28 < muurkha> they don't even have to mildly dislike you, they can even be somewhat sympathetic to you, but care more about getting paid than about your welfare.  think about MLM salesmen who know most of their recruits will lose money
06:30 < muurkha> arguably this kind of tradeoff between subsystem loss functions is inherent to complex adaptive systems such as human societies and even individual humans
06:30 < muurkha> not completely unavoidable, but maybe very costly to avoid
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08:41 < hprmbridge> Eli> I believe the 1.5% death rate is due to iatrogenic conditions. However, it looks like they made a Hospital Aquired Conditions Program to reduce Medicare payments to hospitals that kill people. So, maybe that will improve patient-hospital alignment incentives? Anyway, the main point is that healthcare is not highly correlated with health. “Plumbers have saved more lives than doctors” and all that.
08:58 < muurkha> there are clearly cases where healthcare helps.  ORT for childhood diarrhea, antibiotics, chemotherapy and radiation for cancer, implantable defibrillators, hearing aids, eyeglasses, crowned molars, etc.
08:58 < muurkha> vaccinations
09:48 < TMA> there is an old latin saying/proverb:  medicus curat, natura sanat -- the doctor cures, the nature heals
10:07 < muurkha> I am almost sure that saying dates from before melatonin, steroids, ORT, implantable defibrillators, hearing aids, eyeglasses, and crowned molars
10:08 < muurkha> I think those fall more into the category of "heals"
10:08 < muurkha> we have thousands of years of tradition of medicine that did more harm than good
10:09 < muurkha> but we can do better than that
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13:09 < geneh2> it would be interesting to see if some of these models for proteins could learn how to move robot arms around. protein kinematics and robot kinematics are quite similar
13:10 < Ashstar> that is why it so pisses me off how much information is out there that is nobody fucking business
13:11 < Ashstar> how dare they
13:11 < Ashstar> sure hope we get better privacy laws here in the US
13:12 < L29Ah> le laws
13:12 < Ashstar> le European laws
13:12  * L29Ah wonders what would happen if we outlaw aging
13:13 < Ashstar> or at least forget bout those numbers
13:14 < Ashstar> I look at people who were my age decades back, they look freaking old
13:14 < Ashstar> tore the hell up
13:22 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what you really want is robot protein mechanisms to move things around with protein machines
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13:56 < fenn> everybody hates everybody so we all must die. got it
13:56  * L29Ah tickles fenn
13:57 < fenn> ow
14:02  * nsh is pretty sure neither robot nor protein kinematics exists - just kinematics :)
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16:01 < Ashstar> that would really suck for the planet
16:01 < Ashstar> we got 8 billion people, extinction rates are unprecedented
16:02 < Ashstar> biodiversity is being destroyed
16:02 < Ashstar> do we wish to have more n morehumans living forever?
16:04 < Ashstar> an estimated 100 billion humans have existed, what if they all lived kept living, this planet would really suck
16:05 < Ashstar> a former prof of mine ws Paul Ehrlich, who wrote the Population Bomb
16:06 < Ashstar> he was off a bit back then but not wrong
16:10 < Ashstar> humans are the worst thing to happen to this oasis of life, for 65 million years
16:19 < aaabbb> 100 billion have existed? is that true even if you only count anatomically modern humans?
16:23 < fenn> Ashstar: you can leave now
16:24 < fenn> muurkha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_historical_world_population
16:24 < Ashstar> because?
16:25 < Ashstar> I speak the truth
16:25 < fenn> because you are not aligned with the goals of the channel
16:26 < Ashstar> seriously, I am all into life expension, of course I wish for a long life but seriously, this is what is happening
16:26 < aaabbb> what are the goals of the channel?
16:26 < Ashstar> ty
16:26 < aaabbb> like how is he not in line with them?
16:26 < fenn> to stop people from dying is a big one
16:26 < Ashstar> to have 100 billion people living forever
16:27 < Ashstar> wall to wall humns
16:27 < fenn> that you think it's a bad thing is evidence enough
16:27 < Ashstar> sounds lovely
16:27 < Ashstar> what
16:27 < L29Ah> Ashstar: the planet could easily have 100Mppl
16:27 < Ashstar> you are so mistaken, dude
16:27 < aaabbb> i imagine by the time people are able to live indefinitely, we'll be able to solve population issues fairly well
16:28 < L29Ah> *Gppl
16:28 < Ashstar> I grew up at a health spa, I studied nutrition, did my PhD on biological clocks
16:28 < L29Ah> and i don't see it sucking
16:28 < Ashstar> but I am also a biologist
16:28 < Ashstar> who sees what we are doing to this planet
16:29 < aaabbb> the way we are going is bad, but we do not have to continue in that direction
16:29 < L29Ah> switch to plant food and travel less, et voila
16:29 < Betawolf> just accept a slighty worse life, over and over again
16:29 < Ashstar> L29Ah, like having 100 billion self centered humans tearing apart the planet
16:30 < L29Ah> Betawolf: better life, since we get even more effects of scale
16:30 < Ashstar> living forever
16:30 < L29Ah> today only 8Gppl work on our future, imagine 100Gppl working on it
16:30 < Ashstar> might as well tie two cats tail together over a cloths line
16:30 < aaabbb> rat king
16:30 < L29Ah> could have so much more of everything, like: great engineering, great software, great ideas, great science
16:31 < L29Ah> all those things that are brainpower-bound, not planet-bound
16:31 < Ashstar> we need humans with better ethics, not more shitheads
16:31 < fenn> most environmental degradation is caused by a lack of wealth. people choose the cheap product or method that hurts the planet because they can't afford the one that does it right
16:31 < aaabbb> we need better humans, not only more humans
16:31 < L29Ah> Ashstar: indeed
16:31 < L29Ah> the optimal reproduction rate is debatable
16:31 < Ashstar> yes
16:32 < Ashstar> we need ethics
16:32 < fenn> ethics are a club to beat your rivals with
16:32 < L29Ah> but since we have internet and really cheap connected computers these days, we can automate teaching and indoctrination so much further than we used to just 20 years ago and earlier
16:33 < Ashstar> it so pisses me off when I see the destruction of forests, uncontrolled destruction for short term gain
16:33 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yawn
16:34 < L29Ah> Ashstar: buy yourself a forest if you need one
16:34 < Ashstar> I did
16:34 < Ashstar> they still were cutting the Redwoods all around me like mad, we had to tke them to court
16:35 < Ashstar> jeasus guys
16:35 < Ashstar> you attack me for pointing out the very obvious
16:35 < L29Ah> jesus is dead
16:35 < fenn> imagine if there were still people who remembered what it used to be like
16:36 < fenn> when you could walk on the backs of the fish in the river
16:36 < L29Ah> fenn: maybe they were and they decided to return to monke and die!
16:36 < fenn> i'm pretty sure the number of immortal humans is currently very low, probably zero
16:36 < Ashstar> maybe they are all furiously doing genetics research to make it the "good ol days"
16:37 < Ashstar> how naive
16:37  * L29Ah hides
16:37 < aaabbb> fenn: today? certainly zero
16:38 < fenn> dunno, there could be a freak of nature like that caveman jesus movie
16:38 < Ashstar> ha
16:38 < aaabbb> there are too many reasons that's fundamentally impossible
16:38 < aaabbb> not the least of which is the hayflick limit
16:38 < Ashstar> I am interested in a long healthy life
16:38 < aaabbb> and of course oxidative damage to mtdna
16:38 < fenn> the man from earth
16:39 < Ashstar> productive one, we do not need immortal shitheads
16:41 < aaabbb> before immortality, we need to achieve a post-scarcity society
16:41 < Ashstar> yes
16:41 < fenn> i'll suffer for a while instead, thanks
16:41 < Ashstar> with ethical humans
16:41 < Betawolf> it'll be okay, we can simply go out and buy a northern white rhino, and all 100 billion humans can own the couple of acres of land they want for peaceful self-sufficiency, and gatekeeping immortality with ethics tests won't lead to any repugnant conclusions
16:41 < fenn> this is the old "no moon landings before african children are fed" argument, which has been flogged to death already
16:42 < Ashstar> we had Huber-Bosch process to thatnk
16:42 < Ashstar> Haber
16:42 < fenn> there's a whole universe out there guys
16:42 < fenn> there's plenty of room
16:43 < Betawolf> there's all the vacuum you'll ever want
16:43 < Ashstar> we have done a lot, but with all those humans come people who don't give a shit, they just want theirs, now
16:43 < Ashstar> fuck the future
16:44 < fenn> most humans live in cities. most humans *want* to live in cities
16:44 < fenn> the reason the rent is too damn high is because humans want to live in cities
16:45 < Ashstar> so fenn, when you figure out how to get to all those other planets, fast, faster than we can achieve now
16:45 < Ashstar> update us
16:45 < Ashstar> Einstein
16:45 < fenn> you don't have to live on a planet either
16:46 < Ashstar> what, in space?
16:46 < fenn> i know you know all this already, so calling me names is just making you look bad
16:46 < Ashstar> what
16:46 < aaabbb> tbh i think it will be easier to have colonies on mars or in the venusian upper atmosphere than to achieve biolobical immortality, as the former is merely a logistics problem at this point, but the latter is full of unknown unknowns
16:46 < Ashstar> your postulating like you have something that is above what is the current physics
16:47 < fenn> there has been a lot more funding for space programs in the past century than for longevity research
16:47 < fenn> 75 years ago, rocket travel was science fiction
16:48 < Ashstar> well, you were the one telling me to piss of, fenn, so sorryt to insult you with the name, "Einstein" I am pointing out the obvious
16:48 < fenn> that's why it's called "jet propulsion laboratory" - they didn't want to be ridiculed for the association with "rockets" which were clearly absurd and not worthy of consideration
16:49 < Ashstar> Jack Parson Laboratory
16:49 < fenn> ok ashstar, the answer is simple. mass produce reusable rockets. use nuclear power to make methane fuel and oxygen from CO2 and H2O
16:49 < fenn> did i miss anything?
16:49 < Ashstar> we are so far from getting to living healthily in space or other planets, yet
16:50 < aaabbb> i think hydrolox is better than metholox
16:50 < fenn> oh right, "where to?" is more complicated but has been discussed at length by the L5 society, numerous science fiction authors, nasa, etc.
16:50 < fenn> but generally building from materials already in space is more efficient
16:51 < aaabbb> Ashstar: we are, but we are closer to that than human biological immortality, so i personally think that the population density won't be a problem
16:51 < Ashstar> you still got big issues with radioactive containment, getting said tech to space without incident
16:51 < fenn> i'm annoyed there has been so little research on in-space manufacturing
16:51 < Ashstar> we are extending our lifespans
16:52 < aaabbb> life expectencies*
16:52 < Ashstar> yes, and that is the reason for my area of research as a grad student
16:52 < aaabbb> lifespan is still pretty much 120 (so far)
16:52 < Ashstar> but shit, we need checks, we are not the only vital species to this planet
16:53 < Ashstar> we are all connected
16:53 < fenn> god is dead so we are going to have to get good at doing his job
16:53 < Ashstar> biodiversity is vital
16:53 < fenn> killing yourself is an abdication of duty
16:54 < Ashstar> hw about living a ong thoughtful, active life that takes care of this world
16:54 < fenn> sounds great
16:54 < L29Ah> 01:38:38]<aaabbb> not the least of which is the hayflick limit
16:54 < L29Ah> given you don't have stem cells or these cells don't divide into more stem cells
16:55 < Ashstar> we do not need immortal self centered shitheads
16:55 < fenn> your opinion is noted. now, can we move on
16:55 < aaabbb> L29Ah: right and telomerase expression bypasses the limit, but we can't just transcribe that gene in all somatic cells and call it a day
16:55 < Ashstar> yes, Hayflick is still alive, in his 90's
16:55 < Ashstar> I spoke to him
16:56 < Ashstar> he lived in the bay Area
16:56 < L29Ah> 01:41:03]<aaabbb> before immortality, we need to achieve a post-scarcity society
16:56 < L29Ah> post-scarcity society is closer to bullshit than immortality
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16:57 < aaabbb> L29Ah: i don't think so, cheap nuclear fusion and high-quality industrial manufacturing/chemical synthesis is theoretically achievable, but biological immortality is 99% unknown unknowns
16:57 < fenn> i wouldn't put fusion in the row of ducks just yet
16:57 < L29Ah> 01:53:29]<Ashstar> biodiversity is vital
16:57 < L29Ah> only in short-term when you haven't yet learned to live in an artificial ecosystem
16:58 < aaabbb> fenn: why not?
16:58 < L29Ah> aaabbb: earth is finite
16:58 < L29Ah> and high quality human brains are scarce regardless of how many earths you have
16:58 < aaabbb> L29Ah: so are human needs
16:59 < L29Ah> human needs are as finite as mathemathics, or more so
16:59 < L29Ah> s/more/less/
16:59 < fenn> aaabbb: it's hard to make fusion reactors that have economically useful EROEI, and that means they're still expensive. there's not a good reason to think this will suddenly stop being true, as far as i know
16:59 < aaabbb> fenn: we're still a long way away, but it is a problem that we know how to solve, and logistics is the only thing in the way
17:00 < L29Ah> things you suggest aren't "post scarcity society", it's just basic engineering progress
17:00 < fenn> aaabbb: i am optimistic about YBCO tape based reactors, but it's still a ~hundred million dollar endeavor
17:00 < L29Ah> like we had for millenia
17:00 < L29Ah> guess what? we grew our needs way past those of our cavemen ancestors from 10ky ago
17:01 < aaabbb> L29Ah: post scarcity society would require that in a much larger scale, which includes synthesis of all major nutritian requirements in an economic way
17:01 < Ashstar> ok, L29Ah, sure finite, what about all those who want more, in their rapacious need, just keep taking so they can get more, a bigger peice
17:01 < Ashstar> should they live forever
17:01 < Ashstar> accumulate more over yers
17:01 < Ashstar> generations
17:01 < Ashstar> we descend to fudalism
17:01 < L29Ah> Ashstar: or ascend?
17:02 < L29Ah> how do you tell?
17:02 < Ashstar> I don't know
17:02 < Ashstar> perhaps there is an way
17:02 < Ashstar> the singularity
17:03 < L29Ah> "the singularity" is meaningless to speculate about, by definition
17:03 < Ashstar> I will keep doing what I know to extend my life
17:03 < L29Ah> Ashstar: what do you think of metformin?
17:03 < Ashstar> my heart rate seldoms goes above 42
17:04 < Ashstar> I will keep supplementing, exercising
17:04 < Ashstar> I just feel there are some ethical considerations
17:05 < Ashstar> of having the rich, the aviaristic assholes who get access to immortality
17:05 < fenn> so you're jealous, is that it?
17:05 < Ashstar> sure
17:05 < fenn> if i can't get it, nobody can?
17:06 < Ashstar> of course, who want to leave this place
17:06 < Ashstar> naw
17:06 < L29Ah> seems to me the rich assholes are those who will spend most resources towards bringing immortality for us all, like they did with other tech
17:06 < fenn> the crabs that pull each other back into the crab trap
17:06 < fenn> "there's no way i'll let that guy get out first!"
17:07 < Ashstar> your wrong, there is a big problem with abuse of this, if it ever becomes available, but here is what I think, most of those people are hedonistic, abuse alcohol, live sordid lives
17:07 < Ashstar> lack exercise
17:07 < Ashstar> to achieve all this it takes work
17:07 < Ashstar> they will fail
17:07 < fenn> rich assholes are often much better than average at spending money efficiently, which is how they got rich in the first place
17:08 < fenn> if i had a billion dollars to spend on aging research, i'd rather trust a rich asshole to spend it well
17:08 < fenn> assuming he/she had an interest in the research succeeding
17:08 < Ashstar> depends on the asshole
17:09 < Ashstar> I might invest with a Musk
17:09 < Ashstar> not Maddoff
17:10 < L29Ah> i wonder if rich assholes receive enough immortalist propaganda these days
17:10 < Ashstar> sure some do
17:11 < Ashstar> of course they want to keep going, going like Energier Bunnies
17:11 < L29Ah> aging research doesn't seem to be especially well-funded
17:11 < fenn> actually it has gotten a lot of funding in the past 3 years
17:11 < fenn> it's all going into companies, not academia
17:12 < Ashstar> sure, everyones wants to live long
17:12 < fenn> no, they don't
17:12 < Ashstar> I look a images of people my age, decades back, they look so much older
17:12 < fenn> most people think it's some kind of sin to live past 200
17:13 < Ashstar> maybe the religious
17:13 < fenn> like you've literally made a deal with the devil
17:13 < Ashstar> with some other place to go
17:13 < L29Ah> Ashstar: i know plenty of deathists personally, i'd say most people don't believe it makes much sense to burden themselves with exercises and limitations
17:14 < Ashstar> a lot of silly beliefs in the aterlife"
17:14 < Ashstar> afterlif
17:14 < Ashstar> e
17:14 < L29Ah> after all today immortality is equivalent to Pascal's wager
17:14 < Ashstar> oh, your wrong, L29Ah, exercise is so vital
17:14 < Ashstar> for health
17:15 < L29Ah> Ashstar: people don't care about living past 60 or so, can do that w/o exercise
17:15 < Ashstar> I told you I grew up around people who wanted to live forever, they dieted, cleansed, fasted, ate, but di little exercise
17:16 < Ashstar> I thought they were missing 50% of how to live healthy
17:16 < fenn> exercise will get you 10 years, big whoop
17:16 < Ashstar> ok
17:16 < Ashstar> so sit on your anaerobic asses
17:16 < Ashstar> good luck
17:16 < fenn> the point is, it's not the answer
17:18 < Ashstar> its a big one
17:18 < fenn> https://kidneybone.com/c2/wiki/PersonalChoiceElevatedToMoralImperative
17:18 < L29Ah> personally i'm at 60-70bpm resting heart rate these days, failed to create a decent HIIT routine due to how shitty all those [proprietary] heart rate monitors work; most of my aerobic exercises are several-hours-long mountain hikes every couple of weeks and short bicycle commutes every few days
17:19 < Ashstar> good
17:20 < Ashstar> Im a swimmer, have been most my life. I see these long time swimmers who re 60, 70 who look 20 years younger
17:20 < Ashstar> my heart rate seldom exceeds 42 BPM
17:21 < Ashstar> hovers around 38
17:21 < fenn> you don't need a heart rate monitor to exercise
17:21 < Ashstar> I don't bother, I just exercise
17:21 < Ashstar> it's afterwards, or at my doctors office that they tell me
17:22 < fenn> (that was intended for L29Ah)
17:22 < Ashstar> also, the skin of swimmers is healthir, less wrinkling
17:22 < Ashstar> healthier
17:22 < Ashstar> ok
17:22 < L29Ah> fenn: you do need a heart rate monitor for safe and effective HIIT
17:23 < fenn> why?
17:24 < L29Ah> because it's way too easy to go into unhealthy heart rates, in my experience
17:25 < fenn> have you tried continuing to do the same thing you were, and see if your maximum heart rate decreases through exercise?
17:25 < L29Ah> i don't understand your question
17:25 < L29Ah> i'd better sleep tbh, 2:25 here; will gladly continue the discussion tomorrow
17:25 < fenn> the first time you do an exercise, it's difficult, because you haven't built up the muscles. the heart is a muscle, although not the same tissue type
17:26 < fenn> night
17:32 < Ashstar> nnL2
17:32 < Ashstar> L29Ah
17:36 < Ashstar> fenn, I don't appreciate your being so dissmisive, of course I am interested in this subject, or I would have wasted most of my research career. I am pointing out the obvious, do we wish to have people who are self centered shitheads living generation after generation, who over the decades accuulate more wealth, more land at the cost of what, others not so fortunate, or other life that 
17:36 < Ashstar> ties us all together
17:38 < Ashstar> most of them are too hedonistic to apply the discipline that it requires, so I think that will limit them
17:40 < fenn> .t https://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/index.html
17:40 < EmmyNoether> Sustainability of Human Progress
17:40 < saxo> Sustainability of Human Progress
17:40 < fenn> better argued and cited than i have the patience or energy for
17:41 < fenn> if, as is commonly argued, "the problem" is the "1%", then that's only 1% more humans
17:41 < Ashstar> yeah
17:42 < Ashstar> 80 million
17:42 < fenn> i don't think land should be considered personal property
17:42 < Ashstar> ok, good luck with that
17:42 < fenn> i'm very annoyed by zoning laws that prohibit portable housing in general (and no i don't mean trailers)
17:43 < fenn> ashstar, you want to kill everyone
17:43 < Ashstar> I hate those laws, I built a cottage, had the county come down on my ass
17:43 < fenn> so don't tell me i'm radical for thinking that land shouldn't belong to anyone
17:43 < Ashstar> lost my little cozy home
17:44 < Ashstar> Im agreeing
17:44 < fenn> well one of the justifications you provided was that some people would accumulate land
17:44 < Ashstar> but good luck with that, people wish for control
17:44 < fenn> indeed
17:45 < fenn> this is all so earth centric
17:46 < Ashstar> I have a small winery, sure as hell would not wish to put in all the work, then have some people walk over pick it all
17:46 < fenn> when the center of bitcoin moves to mercury orbit, the relevance of earth will wane, and it will become a cute little backwater like europe
17:46 < Ashstar> so, when you start your farm, grow your food, let the crowd have at it
17:47 < fenn> a place with fine wine and historical artifacts, but not much else going for it
17:47 < fenn> that's not what land is, ashstar
17:47 < Ashstar> what? a place to grow food
17:47 < fenn> most farmers don't even own the land they work
17:48 < Ashstar> seriously, that is the foundation of civiliation
17:48 < fenn> grapes are not land
17:48 < fenn> a house is not land
17:48 < Ashstar> yeah, well I would tear up the road
17:48 < Ashstar> except
17:48 < Ashstar> or plant them in space
17:48 < Ashstar> except
17:49 < Ashstar> c'mon
17:49 < fenn> if some guy has more grapes than you, it's not bad
17:49 < Ashstar> so, yeah
17:49 < fenn> if some guy excludes you from existing, because of imaginary boundaries, it's a problem
17:49 < Ashstar> except I think alcohol is a toxin, one of our worst drugs
17:50 < Ashstar> I support myself from it
17:50 < Ashstar> so, Im righ up there with dope growers
17:51 < Ashstar> rater be making useful prooteins
17:51 < Ashstar> rather
17:51 < Ashstar> have a small biotech lab
17:51 < fenn> nobody's stopping you
17:51 < fenn> you probably have most of the equipment already
17:51 < Ashstar> it will happen
17:51 < Ashstar> the wine is what makes my income
17:52 < fenn> businesses take time to grow
17:52 < Ashstar> the lab is what I use to do consultation work for other vintners
17:53 < Ashstar> I do need a bigger autoclave
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18:16 < hprmbridge> Eli> I agree with you to an extent. To be clear, doctors, nurse, and academic researchers are heroes and I don't want to be dismissive of all they have accomplished.
18:16 < hprmbridge> Eli>
18:16 < hprmbridge> Eli> My point is merely that modern medicine is very good at the quick deaths. It’s amazing at treating trauma and infections. It’s not effective at treating long deaths. It’s not effective at treating the major killers: cardiovascular disease, cancer, dementia, and metabolic disorders. The cures for those disorders have no medical code. The cures for those disorders require preventative actions before
18:16 < hprmbridge> Eli> the condition starts. Not excruciatingly painful treatment 10 years after it starts. Our current system doesn’t pay health insurance money to people to change their diet or sleep better or do moderate exercise. In fact, those things can be cheap or free. Our current health care system waits until people are in extreme duress and then largely pays to prolong their pain and suffering. These are the
18:16 < hprmbridge> Eli> major medical challenges will will need to solve in the 21st century.
18:21 < Ashstar> like all humans, we take paths of least resistance, it take some effort to live a healty lifestyle
18:22 < hprmbridge> Eli> You could say conventional medicine is often not “healthcare”. It is disease management. Conventional medicine tends to have negative side effects. Functional medicine tends to have positive side effects. I sometimes thing about the fact that It would be illegal to feed animals the standard American diet
18:22 < hprmbridge> kanzure> to be clear, this channel is for stealing something much more powerful than fire from the gods. try to be inspired and work harder on less boring arguments please.
18:26 < Ashstar> point?
18:28 < Ashstar> shit, I grew up arond people who thought they could easily achieve immortality through their diets, supplemtation, while they did little to keep their cardiovascular system healthy
18:29 < Ashstar> then twist off, go consume booze, or whatever, and think if they took more supplements, all will be ok
18:31 < Ashstar> I wanted to get the science behind having a healthy long life f productivity
18:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> supplements don't seem to do much for longevity.
19:08 < Ashstar> I know people who consume 100's each dy
19:09 < Ashstar> it does seem like it is such an expense, with little results
19:11 < Ashstar> we can only use a certain amount, the water solubles are pissed off, the fat solibles, packed away in our adipose tissue
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20:03 < hprmbridge> Eli> Its basically impossible to do a 100 year clinical trial on supplements with a large enough n-value. At best we are approximating a translation to humans with the ITP rat experiments, which has not existed long. There are a few trials with possible life extending compounds that are trying to raise money. Rapycin is probably the one most people are interested in. But it does take time to test for
20:03 < hprmbridge> Eli> life-extension.
20:03 < hprmbridge> Eli>
20:03 < hprmbridge> Eli> This is one of those areas where a centralized repository of deanonymized health care data would immediately allow us to make informed hypotheses. But lawyers will do everything to prevent this from ever happening.
20:08 < hprmbridge> Eli> I’m not sure if anyone has realized the irony of getting a potentially life extending compound from the island that collapsed due deforestation, war, famine, and disease. But I’ve had enough philosophy for today.
20:12 < hprmbridge> Eli> @alonzoc I’ll finish my self study of linear algebra this week. What classes would you recommend next for AI/ML math?
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21:03 < fenn> maybe the moai were good for something after all
21:04 < fenn> dear lazyweb plz scrape compute enforcement agency memes from @PatrickJBlum
22:13 < fenn> "2025—Compute Fiends in the Tenderloin send a false emergency vehicle signal to a Waymo SUV, causing it to pull over. They harvest its GPUs and sensors. A Waymo Quick Reaction Force (QRF) is dispatched to the location. It is the 9th incident this week."
22:31 < fenn> "2135. Solbrah and Bryan Johnson are in their 104th year of rule as Co-Consuls. They wage war across the Seven Realms, spreading immortality to all those who refuse it. They charge into battle with an army of Solbrah Berserkers and Bryan's Psionic Valkyries."
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22:45 < fenn> "We are builders... We've built a civilization that has 8 billion people who are living at a level that nobody could have conceived of... It's a great disservice what extreme environmentalists have done to humanity by turning so many young people into anxious, immobile beings who are much more concerned with the end of days and the apocalypse rather than creation of new value and new knowledge
22:45 < fenn> and helping humanity solve problems that we currently have." - Marian Tupy
23:26 < muurkha> fenn: thanks for the link
23:27 < muurkha> aaabbb: 100 billion is a bit high, most estimates are closer to half that
23:32 < muurkha> with respect to space colonization, in https://dernocua.github.io/notes/backward-exponential.html I calculated that you only need about 9.5 × 10¹⁸ kg of material to build O'Neill colonies whose land area is the same as the land area of the Earth, which is only 0.3% of the mass of the Moon
23:34 < muurkha> I also agree that this is not a channel for debating whether a posthuman future of abundance is a good idea or not.  it's a channel for people who already agree that it's a good idea to talk to each other to figure out how to achieve it
23:34 < muurkha> so I also think Ashstar should leave
23:36 < aaabbb> why do you think he should leave?
23:36 < muurkha> aaabbb: currently existing farms synthesize all major nutrition requirements for about US$200 per person per year.  what do you mean by "in an economic way" if that isn't it?
23:38 < aaabbb> merely creating food isn't sufficient, hunger is still a thing even if the raw production capacity matches what humanity as a whole requires
23:42 < muurkha> Eli: I agree, medicine is terrible at treating the major killers, although it's made major progress on cancer and some on cardiovascular disease.  but major killers a century ago included polio, yellow fever, diarrhea, and tuberculosis, and they're not major killers any more because we learned how to treat them
23:42 < aaabbb> cancer is not monolithic, and modern medicine can completely cure some kinds of cancer
23:43 < aaabbb> we often fail to realize just how effective modern medicine is at treating and curing many varieties of cancer that would otherwise be lethal
23:43 < muurkha> as for what it's illegal to feed animals, a couple of months ago I watched a lecture about feeding swine on "brown grease" from restaurant drains, after it's been oxidized by the dishwashing liquid, and to what extent that increases their oxidative stress
23:44 < muurkha> so at least in the US it's not illegal to feed animals things like that
23:44 < muurkha> (the lecture was in the US)
23:46 < muurkha> aaabbb: because, as kanzure said, this channel is for stealing something much more powerful than fire from the gods, not crab-bucket infighting about how immortality would be bad because somebody else might get it first
23:47 < muurkha> hunger is still a little bit of a thing, but modern famines are politically induced, and have been for at least 80 years
23:49 < aaabbb> i think it's a natural assumption that the ethical issues with immortality have to be solved, but the search for it does not need to be delayed
23:53 < muurkha> the only significant ethical issue with immortality is that not having it kills people
23:53 < aaabbb> agreed
23:53 < aaabbb> but it's still valid to point out other things that need to be taken into consideration, like how to provide it to people equally
23:54 < aaabbb> which means, once the way to gain immortality is discovered, to ensure that it is free of patents or other restrictions
23:56 < fenn> well that's definitely not gonna happen
23:56 < fenn> so we need to ensure that we can replicate the process anyway, outside of the system of restrictions
23:56 < aaabbb> agreed
23:56  * fenn folds his hands conspiratorially
23:57 < aaabbb> my guess is it will be a gradual process of discovery and not a single eureka moment, so that there is no small set of discoveries or techniques that can be suppressed
23:57 < fenn> indeed we are slippery sliding down the slope of the singularity already
23:58 < aaabbb> i think we're at the edge
23:59 < aaabbb> slowly finding our way to it
23:59 < fenn> conboys' work with blood dilution is a big clue
--- Log closed Mon Jan 29 00:00:43 2024